Is NJ one of the most improved offences in recent memory?

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I know you hate Hall- that's besides the point.


And now you're dodging the question. Would you or wouldn't you have traded Larsson for Gaudreau? We needed offense a lot more than defense when the trade was made so don't give me this "I probably would have, but it's such a tough call to move our best D-man".

I think I would have done Gaudreau for Larsson. He can run entire offense and makes everyone he plays with significantly more productive. He's also got a competitive drive that pushes everybody else (per Micheal Ferland, he's never satisfied)

I don't really see how that's relevant to Hall, as I personally see Gaudreau as being at least 2 tiers ahead of Hall.

Hall is a better possession driver and a one man army skating through the offensive zone. His blend of speed, vision, and passing ability is greater than Johnny G's. Give me Hall everyday of the week. Not long ago their was a poll on this forum and I believe Hall won in lopsided fashion.

You can't be serious. Gaudreau flew passed Hall 3 times in the last game they played and is indisputably the better passer and playmaker. It's not even remotely close.

They also had a healthy McDavid for the whole season, that's kind of important.

For sure. But during the period McDavid was healthy they still weren't as productive. To be fair, McDavid was only a rookie and Draisaitl was just breaking out. But still, having those guys + Hall should have resulted in much more offense than having those guys + Larsson, but it didn't. The opposite was true.

Adding guys like Larsson and Russell to their D core was hugely critical in increasing their offensive output, despite those guys not having a bunch of points. Having a defenseman who is really good at getting the puck out of his own zone can be just as impactful to the team's offense as a 60 point winger.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

That was the big problem with Lou. We all love the guy and appreciate what he did for this franchise up until 2012... but once Kovy, Clarkson, and Parise were leaving, he refused to understand that this team's window was closed. He kept signing cheap grinders and role players who couldn't score. He kept buying at deadlines and wasting assets. Drafting also completely collapsed. This team couldn't develop a player for anything. It's just astonishing how quick Shero has turned things around.

I liked that Lou tried to stay competitive and refused the tanking mentality. I think losing tends to breed losing.

My biggest problem was with the way he tried to plug holes - by adding older, slower players who were "proven" instead of adding speed. It took him too long to see the direction the league was trending.

But Shero has been great. I've liked roughly 70-80% of his moves. It's extremely rare for me to like a GM's decision making that much.

 

[My3Sons]

I think I would have done Gaudreau for Larsson. He can run entire offense and makes everyone he plays with significantly more productive. He's also got a competitive drive that pushes everybody else (per Micheal Ferland, he's never satisfied)

I don't really see how that's relevant to Hall, as I personally see Gaudreau as being at least 2 tiers ahead of Hall.



You can't be serious. Gaudreau flew passed Hall 3 times in the last game they played and is indisputably the better passer and playmaker. It's not even remotely close.



For sure. But during the period McDavid was healthy they still weren't as productive. To be fair, McDavid was only a rookie and Draisaitl was just breaking out. But still, having those guys + Hall should have resulted in much more offense than having those guys + Larsson, but it didn't. The opposite was true.

Adding guys like Larsson and Russell to their D core was hugely critical in increasing their offensive output, despite those guys not having a bunch of points. Having a defenseman who is really good at getting the puck out of his own zone can be just as impactful to the team's offense as a 60 point winger.

You may be right about JG's ability compared to Hall, but clearly Shero saw some untapped potential in Hall. This year with more support and a better mental approach, Hall is looking much more like the player Shero envisioned he was trading for. I'm not sure about the two tiers part but JG's shooting percentage is fairly high compared to Hall's which may or may not be sustainable. This season at least, Hall is providing leadership and mentoring to young players. It's always speculative, but I'm not sure that if Hall and JG switched teams and Hall played with Monahan and JG with Hischier that the Hall and JG point totals wouldn't be reversed. They are both great players of course, and it's hard to know who Shero would prefer if given the choice between them. I will say that NJ core players are on the smaller side and having one with solid physicality and size is something the team needs.

As an aside, I think most Devils fans understand your point about Larsson getting the puck out of the zone quickly and providing a chance for lesser offensive players to score since they weren't defending. Where I think your argument fell down was you having to argue uphill against multiple posters. Some of them inferred your point was that Larsson was a better offensive player than Hall and disagreed. Others inferred your point was that the team was worse in the offensive end with Hall than without him and disagreed. Others inferred your point correctly, but still disagreed. That argument is clearly unsettled it seems based on your continuing comments.

 

[StevenF1919]

Adding guys like Larsson and Russell to their D core was hugely critical in increasing their offensive output, despite those guys not having a bunch of points. Having a defenseman who is really good at getting the puck out of his own zone can be just as impactful to the team's offense as a 60 point winger.

Russell is probably the worst dman in the league at getting the puck out of his own zone. Every time he's on the ice we get hemmed in our own end for almost the entire shift. Larsson isn't good at moving the puck out either but he plays with Klefbom or Nurse, who are both very good at zone exits. Larsson is probably neutral to our offense and Russell is hugely detrimental to it. You're right about him being just as impactful to our offense however, as when he's on the ice it completely disappears.

Hall is an EV beast and drives offense every time he's on the ice. I wish I could go back in time and stop that trade from happening. Don't make the same mistake that some Oilers fans did and run him out of town. The guy will skate through a wall to try and win and come playoff time he's going to be an absolute monster.

 

[135ace]

I've been saying this for over a year, but I think it's now general knowledge. This guy is quickly turning into one of the best power forwards in the game, and is, IMO, the biggest reason for Johnny Gaudreau's turnaround.

Since he joined the top line, he's turned it into arguably the most productive trio in the league:

Gaudreau 46gp 18g 60p (14 ESG 43 ESP)
Monahan 46gp 22g 49p (13 ESG 36 ESP)
Ferland 43gp 17g 25p (14 ESG 21 ESP)

All 3 of them are top 24 in ESG over that period! That seems insane for one line!

Ferland has recently taken his game to a new level with 7g 10p in his last 10 games, scoring some beautiful snipes along the way. He could have easily had 2-3 more goals last night.

This is something I predicted 2 weeks before he finally got promoted.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/michael-ferland.2186849/

What's really impressive about Ferland is that he's done this with very little PP opportunity and ice time in general until very recently. My math suggests he's top 5 in ES G/60 since getting his promotion. He's just now starting to get true top 6 minutes.

So you say Johnny Gaudreau can run an offense and drive play better than Taylor Hall? Or is it Michael Ferland, one of your "top 5 ES players in the league" who is carrying him?

The real question we should be asking is what did Taylor Hall do to you to make you hate him so much?

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

You may be right about JG's ability compared to Hall, but clearly Shero saw some untapped potential in Hall. This year with more support and a better mental approach, Hall is looking much more like the player Shero envisioned he was trading for. I'm not sure about the two tiers part but JG's shooting percentage is fairly high compared to Hall's which may or may not be sustainable. This season at least, Hall is providing leadership and mentoring to young players. It's always speculative, but I'm not sure that if Hall and JG switched teams and Hall played with Monahan and JG with Hischier that the Hall and JG point totals wouldn't be reversed. They are both great players of course, and it's hard to know who Shero would prefer if given the choice between them. I will say that NJ core players are on the smaller side and having one with solid physicality and size is something the team needs.

As an aside, I think most Devils fans understand your point about Larsson getting the puck out of the zone quickly and providing a chance for lesser offensive players to score since they weren't defending. Where I think your argument fell down was you having to argue uphill against multiple posters. Some of them inferred your point was that Larsson was a better offensive player than Hall and disagreed. Others inferred your point was that the team was worse in the offensive end with Hall than without him and disagreed. Others inferred your point correctly, but still disagreed. That argument is clearly unsettled it seems based on your continuing comments.

This is a fair, well thought out post. Thanks for your comments.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

So you say Johnny Gaudreau can run an offense and drive play better than Taylor Hall? Or is it Michael Ferland, one of your "top 5 ES players in the league" who is carrying him?

Where did I say Ferland is a "top 5 ES player in the league". Please don't falsely attribute quotes to me like that. Read what I wrote, and try again.

But yes, adding a true top 6 winger who could share the load over Alex Chiasson was hugely impactful for Johnny Gaudreau's ability to create offense. He's not on pace for 120+ points without Ferland. That said, I'd take Hischier and Bratt / Palmieri over Monahan and Ferland all day. Glad they are devils.

The real question we should be asking is what did Taylor Hall do to you to make you hate him so much?

I don't hate him at all lol. I just don't rate him as highly as others.

 

[My3Sons]

Russell is probably the worst dman in the league at getting the puck out of his own zone. Every time he's on the ice we get hemmed in our own end for almost the entire shift. Larsson isn't good at moving the puck out either but he plays with Klefbom or Nurse, who are both very good at zone exits. Larsson is probably neutral to our offense and Russell is hugely detrimental to it. You're right about him being just as impactful to our offense however, as when he's on the ice it completely disappears.

Hall is an EV beast and drives offense every time he's on the ice. I wish I could go back in time and stop that trade from happening. Don't make the same mistake that some Oilers fans did and run him out of town. The guy will skate through a wall to try and win and come playoff time he's going to be an absolute monster.

Doesn't every team have an anchor or two on the blue line still? I'm sure most NJ fans would insist that Lovejoy and Prout are worse than Russell at transition. I imagine other teams have their heavy footed old school player on defense as well. Russell worst in the league? I say pish posh.

 

[BahlDeep]

Hall is nowhere close to Gaudreau. That's been my opinion for forever, but recent polls suggest the same.

That said, it would have been a tough call for me to move our best and only defensive defenseman.

And we are better off with Hall than with Larsson. Larsson is very good in his own way, but people are severely overrating him

And to say that Hall is nowhere close to Gaudreau is total non sense

 

[NJDevils17]

I don't know when exactly, but regression will come. Although, at this point I don't think it will be as drastic as initially anticipated.

There's a few things the team can point to though. First, Bratt and Nico exceeding this year's expectations has done a lot for the team's overall depth. Gibbons obviously will regress too but there's no reason he can't be a good bottom-six piece.

Hall looks better this year. Whether it's Shero challenging him or working on his skating(which is somehow better for someone who was already a tremendous skater), there is a clear difference in his play.

One big thing is the offense from the blue-line as well. Severson has looked great the last few weeks after his scratch and seems to be a consistent producer as well. Butcher, who plays sheltered minutes, is fantastic in his role. Whether or not he can keep up the production in more minutes/responsibility is another question, but in his current situation, he has been amazing.

 

[StevenF1919]

Doesn't every team have an anchor or two on the blue line still? I'm sure most NJ fans would insist that Lovejoy and Prout are worse than Russell at transition. I imagine other teams have their heavy footed old school player on defense as well. Russell worst in the league? I say pish posh.

I'm fairly confident he's the worst.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

And we are better off with Hall than with Larsson. Larsson is very good in his own way, but people are severely overrating him

And to say that Hall is nowhere close to Gaudreau is total non sense

You're free to your opinion. Let's agree to disagree.

Cheers.

 

[BahlDeep]

You're free to your opinion. Let's agree to disagree.

Cheers.

So you think we would be better off with Larsson than Hall?

 

[Devils090]

Leafs truly do everything better

Like never winning cups and being irrelevant

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

So you think we would be better off with Larsson than Hall?

Yes I do, especially considering how deep we have become up front.

Palmieri
Hischier
Bratt
Henrique
Johansson
Zajac
Stafford
Gibbons
Wood
Zacha

With guys like Quenneville, McLeod, Blandisi, Speers, Lapping on the way.

 

[BahlDeep]

Yes I do, especially considering how deep we have become up front.

Palmieri
Hischier
Bratt
Henrique
Johansson
Zajac
Stafford
Gibbons
Wood
Zacha

With guys like Quenneville, McLeod, Blandisi, Speers, Lapping on the way.

Wow. Alright, have a good one m8.

 

[StevenF1919]

Yes I do, especially considering how deep we have become up front.

Palmieri
Hischier
Bratt
Henrique
Johansson
Zajac
Stafford
Gibbons
Wood
Zacha

With guys like Quenneville, McLeod, Blandisi, Speers, Lapping on the way.

You're welcome to send him back for Larsson then

 

[Devils090]

Yes I do, especially considering how deep we have become up front.

Palmieri
Hischier
Bratt
Henrique
Johansson
Zajac
Stafford
Gibbons
Wood
Zacha

With guys like Quenneville, McLeod, Blandisi, Speers, Lapping on the way.

Hall is so much better than every single player on this team it's uncanny

He's #1 in the entire league in terms of shot contributions, and nobody on the Devils is even close to the amount Hall has.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Hall is so much better than every single player on this team it's uncanny

He's #1 in the entire league in terms of shot contributions, and nobody on the Devils is even close to the amount Hall has.

Hall has always been a volume shooter. He's been our best forward this year, but I think Schneider is our best player.

Anyways, my point was that we have the offensive depth to spare him to fill the gaping void at D.

Larsson
Santini
Severson

Would be such an improvement on our right side.

 

[Scorcho]

Hall has always been a volume shooter. He's been our best forward this year, but I think Schneider is our best player.

Anyways, my point was that we have the offensive depth to spare him to fill the gaping void at D.

Larsson
Santini
Severson

Would be such an improvement on our right side.

and then we don't get butcher

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

and then we don't get butcher

How would keeping a right side defensive defenseman impact Butcher's decision? He's a left handed offensive defenseman.

We wouldn't have Lovejoy, that's for sure.

 

[naruto]

I hope in hell you're not including the Leafs as successful because LOL

His problem was calling the devils a successful team.... luck will come crashing down. Sad

Leafs truly do everything better

Like never winning cups and being irrelevant

13-10=3
And honestly, the leafs were probably still more relevant in the years that the devils won the cup. #mecca

 

[RememberTheName]

His problem was calling the devils a successful team.... luck will come crashing down. Sad



13-10=3
And honestly, the leafs were probably still more relevant in the years that the devils won the cup. #mecca

Yes because Hall of Famers Stevens, Niedermayer, Brodeur, and Elias (not yet) mean absolutely nothing compared to the absolute all star generational players that the Leafs always stack their lineup with

 

[naruto]

Yes because Hall of Famers Stevens, Niedermayer, Brodeur, and Elias (not yet) mean absolutely nothing compared to the absolute all star generational players that the Leafs always stack their lineup with

Who?

 

[135ace]

You're welcome to send him back for Larsson then

Absolutely not. But since Larsson's such an amazing player maybe you can get Whisky to convince the flames to give you Gaudreau for him (although you might need to throw in something like a 2nd to balance it out).