Is Matt Murray Broken?

[cheesedanish87]

The league has changed with goalie usage.

Most teams are using 2 goalies a fair amount.

Their are a few teams that still rely on one goalie like Toronto and Montreal, but that's not the norm anymore.

Look at the entire metro division, CBJ was really the only team relying on one goalie(Korpisalo), but now that Elvis has played well they will probably be using both goalies more often.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Sit both, start DeSmith.

 

[Allie Kitsune]

Sit both, start DeSmith.

Emil Larmi.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Emil Larmi.

What's Ken Wregget up to these days? We need a come back story to rally around.

 

[Flying Dego]

This situation is super simple to me. Remove all bias and look at it from a team perspective.

You play both down the stretch, assuming both play average or above. You give Jarry a shot in the playoffs. That way you can assess in the summer.

If Jarry performs well enough, you shop MM and save a wad of cap for the next few years. If he faulters. You have to pony up for MM and figure out a trade for Jarry.

Carrying both goalies would be pricey. Talking an extra 5M + next year for both. Yuck. We have enough raises to hand out. Goalie is not the position to blow the cap space.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

wait, what? Where were cries for fairness when Jarry took the job from Murray? This is a meritocracy. You play well, you get the net. That's why Jarry took the net for a 2 month stretch. Murray has put together a string of games where he out-performed Jarry, including back-stopping them to a win against a team Jarry didn't.

... fair? okay

If you want to characterize what happened as a meritocracy, then ok we're probably in semantics anyway

MM was ok in the beginning of the year then absolutely bombed. I'm sure the coaching staff was like "well we're gonna play anyone but MM at this moment". Then Jarry took off, won and looked fantastic doing it. MM continued to crater.

Now we're back to MM playing better. MM still let in a softie on the first goal Sunday and came back strong to finish. I wouldn't say Jarry has faltered to the level MM did. I mean the floor isn't in the same zip code to what MM was doing at his worse.

So the questions are:
1) Did MM do anything to lose the net last month? That's a resounding YES
2) To apply the same standard - did Jarry do anything recently to lose the net? That's a resounding NO

So we're back to a rotation vs meritocracy until one of them bombs badly enough. And I'm guessing we'll see such a rotation the rest of the year

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

This situation is super simple to me. Remove all bias and look at it from a team perspective.

You play both down the stretch, assuming both play average or above. You give Jarry a shot in the playoffs. That way you can assess in the summer.

If Jarry performs well enough, you shop MM and save a wad of cap for the next few years. If he faulters. You have to pony up for MM and figure out a trade for Jarry.

Carrying both goalies would be pricey. Talking an extra 5M + next year for both. Yuck. We have enough raises to hand out. Goalie is not the position to blow the cap space.

Zero need to decide who gets Game 1 in the playoffs when we're 3 months out. Sooooooo much can change with these 2 guys.

 

[Flying Dego]

Zero need to decide who gets Game 1 in the playoffs when we're 3 months out. Sooooooo much can change with these 2 guys.

I get it, I'm saying if they both play well down the stretch I'll be ticked if Jarry gets put backup by default and we see no indication if he can handle the pressure for the future. That seems dumb to me.

If one sucks the rest of the way...than the decision is probably made up for the summer. I just want us to keep costs low where we can if production doesn't drop off.

 

[MrRuckus]

The league has changed with goalie usage.

Most teams are using 2 goalies a fair amount.

Their are a few teams that still rely on one goalie like Toronto and Montreal, but that's not the norm anymore.

I'm fine with this and wanted this, however that did not seem to be Sullivan's plan until Murray failed for a month straight.

Early in the season we were discussing Murray burn out since Jarry only played on back-to-back nights, which would have led him playing 60-some games.

I'm glad Murray failed in November instead of burned out in May.

 

[wgknestrick]

What's Ken Wregget up to these days?

55 years old

 

[Honour Over Glory]

55 years old

Just the story we need.

 

[Flying Dego]

Just the story we need.

I miss Ron Tugnut. He was the man. He used to turn to the crowd and yell 'if you're happy and you know it tug your nuts' ahh simpler times back then.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

If you want to characterize what happened as a meritocracy, then ok we're probably in semantics anyway

MM was ok in the beginning of the year then absolutely bombed. I'm sure the coaching staff was like "well we're gonna play anyone but MM at this moment". Then Jarry took off, won and looked fantastic doing it. MM continued to crater.

Now we're back to MM playing better. MM still let in a softie on the first goal Sunday and came back strong to finish. I wouldn't say Jarry has faltered to the level MM did. I mean the floor isn't in the same zip code to what MM was doing at his worse.

So the questions are:
1) Did MM do anything to lose the net last month? That's a resounding YES
2) To apply the same standard - did Jarry do anything recently to lose the net? That's a resounding NO

So we're back to a rotation vs meritocracy until one of them bombs badly enough. And I'm guessing we'll see such a rotation the rest of the year

How is your answer to number two correct? Last 5 games Jarry is 3-2 with a GAA of 3 and his last 3 games all save% .800's. Murray over his last 5 games is 5-0 with all his games above .900 and 4 of his games .917 save% or higher. So when Jarry's best game in his last 5 games is a .912 save% which only is better than 1 of Murray's games how does he not lose the starting spot? Sorry, when your last 3 games are all .800's in save% and the other goalie is 5-0 with very good save% over those games then you lose your spot.

Sullivan is going to play whatever goalie is playing better at that time. For a period of time Jarry started 13 games to Murray's 4 and rightfully so. Now Murray has been drastically outplaying Jarry lately so he will get the majority of starts until he cools off and Jarry gets back to earlier form. I wouldn't bet against second half Murray though. I believe he will keep up the good play like last seasons second half.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

This situation is super simple to me. Remove all bias and look at it from a team perspective.

You play both down the stretch, assuming both play average or above. You give Jarry a shot in the playoffs. That way you can assess in the summer.

If Jarry performs well enough, you shop MM and save a wad of cap for the next few years. If he faulters. You have to pony up for MM and figure out a trade for Jarry.

Carrying both goalies would be pricey. Talking an extra 5M + next year for both. Yuck. We have enough raises to hand out. Goalie is not the position to blow the cap space.

Sorry that is biased if you think Sullivan is going to start Jarry in the playoffs over Murray if Murray is playing well. If people can't see that Jarry has cooled off and actually has been playing below average goaltending in his last 3 games all in the .800's save%. Murray on the other hand is 5-0 in his last 5 starts with all 5 games in the .900's save% and 4 of the .917 save% or higher.

If Murray keeps performing the job is his and it isn't even a contest. If Jarry starts performing like his earlier starts then he will start getting more time but will be the backup if Murray is playing like he has the past 5 games. Murray is the proven goalie with 3 of his 4 years in the league with a top 5 save% type goalie. Jarry had a hot 17 starts and the last 5 not so hot. Sullivan is not handing over the keys to Jarry in the playoffs unless Murray faulters. If Murray starts playing like crap again then Jarry will get his shot this year if he gets back to form but no coach would start Jarry with no experience and long time success over a proven playoff winner who is playing well.

 

[Flying Dego]

Sorry that is biased if you think Sullivan is going to start Jarry in the playoffs over Murray if Murray is playing well. If people can't see that Jarry has cooled off and actually has been playing below average goaltending in his last 3 games all in the .800's save%. Murray on the other hand is 5-0 in his last 5 starts with all 5 games in the .900's save% and 4 of the .917 save% or higher.

If Murray keeps performing the job is his and it isn't even a contest. If Jarry starts performing like his earlier starts then he will start getting more time but will be the backup if Murray is playing like he has the past 5 games. Murray is the proven goalie with 3 of his 4 years in the league with a top 5 save% type goalie. Jarry had a hot 17 starts and the last 5 not so hot. Sullivan is not handing over the keys to Jarry in the playoffs unless Murray faulters. If Murray starts playing like crap again then Jarry will get his shot this year if he gets back to form but no coach would start Jarry with no experience and long time success over a proven playoff winner who is playing well.

Past 5 games goals given up:

Murray: 13
Jarry: 14

I think it's being blown out of proportion with Jarry's 'bad streak'...he hasn't allowed over 3 goals either...just saying the guy deserves a look if he plays well down the stretch. No reason to handicap yourself to just one guy bc of past success when another may find similar success.

A lot can happen with the back end of the season. Let's see how both perform and then it'll be a bit more clear.

I should also say we generally will disagree on this topic as you think of Murray as a top 5 goalie in the league and I do not see it. Please don't take that a way. I don't think he's bad either...just not as inflated as you believe.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Past 5 games goals given up:

Murray: 13
Jarry: 14

I think it's being blown out of proportion with Jarry's 'bad streak'...he hasn't allowed over 3 goals either...just saying the guy deserves a look if he plays well down the stretch. No reason to handicap yourself to just one guy bc of past success when another may find similar success.

A lot can happen with the back end of the season. Let's see how both perform and then it'll be a bit more clear.

It's really not worth the battle.

Most of us just want it to be a proper rotation, others want to go nuts on 4-5 games as a basis (1 of those games was against literally the worst team in the league and average the league worst goals for, per game) and then cite that he won vs Boston, while actively ignoring how f***ing putrid the Penguins were in Boston vs the Bruins. Murray has been good and that's great, but it doesn't mean Jarry has been the sole reason to the losses in his starts, which were more the case when Murray was playing very poorly, in those games, it was Murray as the x factor for the losses. Jarry hasn't been his best, sure, but there is no way anyone can argue he was the sole reason for those losses in his last 5 starts in that same manner. No one wants to rationalize it that way, or at all.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

Past 5 games goals given up:

Murray: 13
Jarry: 14

I think it's being blown out of proportion with Jarry's 'bad streak'...he hasn't allowed over 3 goals either...just saying the guy deserves a look if he plays well down the stretch. No reason to handicap yourself to just one guy bc of past success when another may find similar success.

A lot can happen with the back end of the season. Let's see how both perform and then it'll be a bit more clear.

I should also say we generally will disagree on this topic as you think of Murray as a top 5 goalie in the league and I do not see it. Please don't take that a way. I don't think he's bad either...just not as inflated as you b

Is that your defense? Goals given up, and you don't even put up the right numbers, 15 for Jarry. Save% is much more important, for example Murray had 48 shots against him in the game he gave up 4 goals. That still is well above .9 save%. Bottom line is Murray is 5-0 in his last 5 starts and has had a .917 save% or better in 4 of those starts and in the other start he still was above .900 save%. Jarry is 3-2 in his past 5 starts with his last 3 all terrible starting goalie save% in the .800's which isn't acceptable 3 starts in a row.

When Murray played like that he started 4 games to Jarry's 13 games and rightfully so. I would like Jarry to play one of every 3 games but he needs to pick it up starting tonight. Murray has a history of very strong second half play. Last year Murray was one of the top goalies from December to the end of the season after losing his starting job to DeSmith for a period of time. Same thing happened this season but it took him a few weeks longer to get going. But with Murray's 5 game winning streak I think he is back. For the Pens sake I hope I am right.

As far as me saying Murray played at a top 5 goalie level. It is not me saying it but the facts of his production. Murray's first two seasons when he won the Cup his regular season and playoff games combined GAA and save% are top tier in both seasons. That is not speculation but fact. Both those seasons he had the best save% and GAA of any goalie in those playoffs and his regular season numbers had been very good also. I don't see how anyone could look at those years and say he wasn't playing at that level. Then last season even with a terrible start Murray still finished 3rd in save% of any goalie with 50 starts. Even if you wanted to count a starting goalie as any goalie with one game over half the games Murray still was 5th in save% for any goalie starting 42 starts. So how is that not considered top 5? Coming into this season his only down year was the year his father died and add in the concussion. We all see how that has hurt MAF this year. I certainly don't blame Murray for average goaltending in that year.

This is the second year in a row that Murray had a poor start to the year but if he goes on a streak like his past second halves his overall numbers will be very good again. Luckily the Pens have had a very good backup to take over as the starter during these spots of poor play and it really hasn't hurt the Pens overall. I am sure the Pens goalie numbers last season had to be top 5 or close to it last season with the Murray and DeSmith combo and hopefully it will be the same by end of the year with the Murray and Jarry combo.

I am not against any of our goalies and just want the one in that is playing the best at that time. Lately that had been Murray and no person could seriously say differently when looking at each players last 5 games objectively.

Jarry is starting tonight and I hope he gets back on track and gets a shutout. Best case for the Pens is Murray being second half Murray and Jarry getting back to his play before these last 3 starts.

 

[TooManyHumans]

Why are we making this more complicated than it needs to be? Keep splitting the starts. If one guy is hot ride him until he isn't.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

Why are we making this more complicated than it needs to be? Keep splitting the starts. If one guy is hot ride him until he isn't.

That's how I would do it also. Play the hot goalie and if both are hot keep it more balanced. As of late I would play Murray more but hopefully Jarry has a great start and gets back on track. Perfect team to play awesome against because we all hate the Flyers and you get to go into the break on a high note.

 

[Flying Dego]

Is that your defense? Goals given up, and you don't even put up the right numbers, 15 for Jarry. Save% is much more important, for example Murray had 48 shots against him in the game he gave up 4 goals. That still is well above .9 save%. Bottom line is Murray is 5-0 in his last 5 starts and has had a .917 save% or better in 4 of those starts and in the other start he still was above .900 save%. Jarry is 3-2 in his past 5 starts with his last 3 all terrible starting goalie save% in the .800's which isn't acceptable 3 starts in a row.

When Murray played like that he started 4 games to Jarry's 13 games and rightfully so. I would like Jarry to play one of every 3 games but he needs to pick it up starting tonight. Murray has a history of very strong second half play. Last year Murray was one of the top goalies from December to the end of the season after losing his starting job to DeSmith for a period of time. Same thing happened this season but it took him a few weeks longer to get going. But with Murray's 5 game winning streak I think he is back. For the Pens sake I hope I am right.

As far as me saying Murray played at a top 5 goalie level. It is not me saying it but the facts of his production. Murray's first two seasons when he won the Cup his regular season and playoff games combined GAA and save% are top tier in both seasons. That is not speculation but fact. Both those seasons he had the best save% and GAA of any goalie in those playoffs and his regular season numbers had been very good also. I don't see how anyone could look at those years and say he wasn't playing at that level. Then last season even with a terrible start Murray still finished 3rd in save% of any goalie with 50 starts. Even if you wanted to count a starting goalie as any goalie with one game over half the games Murray still was 5th in save% for any goalie starting 42 starts. So how is that not considered top 5? Coming into this season his only down year was the year his father died and add in the concussion. We all see how that has hurt MAF this year. I certainly don't blame Murray for average goaltending in that year.

This is the second year in a row that Murray had a poor start to the year but if he goes on a streak like his past second halves his overall numbers will be very good again. Luckily the Pens have had a very good backup to take over as the starter during these spots of poor play and it really hasn't hurt the Pens overall. I am sure the Pens goalie numbers last season had to be top 5 or close to it last season with the Murray and DeSmith combo and hopefully it will be the same by end of the year with the Murray and Jarry combo.

I am not against any of our goalies and just want the one in that is playing the best at that time. Lately that had been Murray and no person could seriously say differently when looking at each players last 5 games objectively.

Jarry is starting tonight and I hope he gets back on track and gets a shutout. Best case for the Pens is Murray being second half Murray and Jarry getting back to his play before these last 3 starts.

S*** you talk a lot. Lol. I'm glad you think so highly of Murray, no shame in it. You're also taking numbers from partial seasons. Even last year was quite a minimal load for a #1. How about you make a poll. Do it here among just Pens fans if you'd like and see what tier the majority ranks MM across the hockey world. I'd be curious myself to see where we all place him.

I'll be nice. Murray is not as good as you think. He's also not a bad goalie, he's good. I personally like Jarry a bit better mechanically and stick handling. They can both be pivotal to us winning this year.

Unless Murray was a Vezina goalie I'm not a proponent to paying any goalie big bucks. If Jarry can do the job at a similar rate I go with the cheaper option for the teams sake. Some agree with me others don't. O well.

 

[Allie Kitsune]

It's really not worth the battle.

Most of us just want it to be a proper rotation, others want to go nuts on 4-5 games as a basis (1 of those games was against literally the worst team in the league and average the league worst goals for, per game) and then cite that he won vs Boston, while actively ignoring how ****ing putrid the Penguins were in Boston vs the Bruins. Murray has been good and that's great, but it doesn't mean Jarry has been the sole reason to the losses in his starts, which were more the case when Murray was playing very poorly, in those games, it was Murray as the x factor for the losses. Jarry hasn't been his best, sure, but there is no way anyone can argue he was the sole reason for those losses in his last 5 starts in that same manner. No one wants to rationalize it that way, or at all.

I mean, ultimately, you hope that both of them are rolling going into the Playoffs.

Yeah, someone has to be "The Man" once you get to that point, but you never know what's going to happen.

Never forget having Jeff Zatkoff as playoff starter.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I mean, ultimately, you hope that both of them are rolling going into the Playoffs.

Yeah, someone has to be "The Man" once you get to that point, but you never know what's going to happen.

Never forget having Jeff Zatkoff as playoff starter.

Both rolling is the best scenario, which means giving Jarry the start today allows him to also have a solid game before a long break.

People seem to not like that.

 

[Allie Kitsune]

Both rolling is the best scenario, which means giving Jarry the start today allows him to also have a solid game before a long break.

People seem to not like that.

Especially against the hated Flyers. MM started the game back in October, while Jarry has yet to face them this season.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Especially against the hated Flyers. MM started the game back in October, while Jarry has yet to face them this season.

Which is why I originally wanted it to be Jarry (get a chance at redemption with the Pens at home and showing up better vs the B's) and then Murray vs the Flyers, but it is what is at this point.

 

[Flying Dego]

Which is why I originally wanted it to be Jarry (get a chance at redemption with the Pens at home and showing up better vs the B's) and then Murray vs the Flyers, but it is what is at this point.

I understood why Sully chose MM last game. Hopefully Jarry looks sharp tonight. In all honesty I don't get it if people have been unhappy with him. If you look at the types of goals Jarry is getting beat on they are mostly redirects and odd man's. Its hard to think of a stinker he's let up. He has yet to be plastered and yanked.