Is Kevin Lowe the worst defenseman in the HHoF?

[Oheao]

Edmonton media wastes no time

7? Detroit in 2002 had 9, and Datsyuk is probably going to be one too =)

 

[Staniowski]

He was the epitome of borderline for me, and I much preferred that he was on the outside than the inside.

And frankly - I just question why after 20 years of eligibility these guys are finally getting in. If they couldn't get inducted in 2002 (for instance), how has their case improved in the 18 years since to make them worthy now?

It's not a surprise that Lowe and Wilson are being inducted after many years. It's just the peculiarities of the HHOF induction process.

First, unlike the baseball hof, hockey players need to be nominated before they can ever be voted upon. Therefore, there is no pecking order for the HHOF. It's possible, for example, that this is the first time Kevin Lowe has ever been up for a vote by the Selection Committee. And it's almost certain that Yakushev and Nedomansky were only nominated in the years they were inducted.

Also, and related to this, the voting of nominees depends on the strength of the other nominees. Perhaps Lowe was nominated once or twice before, but in years with better competition.

Another possibility is the fact that players with at least 15 years of HHOF-eligibility have an advantage in the voting process.

And, also, the makeup of the Selection Committee has changed significantly over the years.

 

[The Panther]

Edmonton media wastes no time

Bruce McCurdy is a great guy and an outstanding media personality / journalist -- in fact, he's probably my favorite Oilers'-related media person ever -- but I'm gonna disagree with him, here.

These tributes to Kevin Lowe, when discussing his actual playing ability, tend to boil down to "he was a shut-down guy". I mean, it's an important thing, but was he really that good at it? To me, he wasn't. He was above-average at his best, and just as his best years were fading (after 1987), he started getting a little bit of media attention (his Norris-voting finishes were 5, 7, 8, 10 over an eight-season period). Bizarrely, he seems to have gotten 2 first-place Norris votes in 1988... for reasons I can't understand.

My question would be: Since 1967, what HOF'er defenceman has the next-worst Norris voting record than 5, 7, 8, 10 for his career? That's just not good enough to warrant Hall of Fame induction.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

Guess this means Luke Schenn is a lock when he retires.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i feel like wilson is the liut of dmen. so i guess he should be on deck soon?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Bruce McCurdy is a great guy and an outstanding media personality / journalist -- in fact, he's probably my favorite Oilers'-related media person ever -- but I'm gonna disagree with him, here.

These tributes to Kevin Lowe, when discussing his actual playing ability, tend to boil down to "he was a shut-down guy". I mean, it's an important thing, but was he really that good at it? To me, he wasn't. He was above-average at his best, and just as his best years were fading (after 1987), he started getting a little bit of media attention (his Norris-voting finishes were 5, 7, 8, 10 over an eight-season period). Bizarrely, he seems to have gotten 2 first-place Norris votes in 1988... for reasons I can't understand.

My question would be: Since 1967, what HOF'er defenceman has the next-worst Norris voting record than 5, 7, 8, 10 for his career? That's just not good enough to warrant Hall of Fame induction.

Listening to sports radio in Edmonton today was interesting. I didn't listen for all that long, but the discussion seemed to be a lot of "now that Lowe is in, do Doug Weight and Ryan Smyth deserve to be inducted?" A decent amount of people seem to think they should get consideration. Yikes. But in fairness, Weight was clearly a better player than Lowe, and Smyth is comparable. They just didn't win Cups.

As far as discussion on Lowe himself, it was pretty much "six Cups, well respected leader in the dressing room, sneaky dirty in front of his own net, mean SOB in the corners". When that's the best that biased local media (who witnessed his career live) can come up with in defense of his HOF induction, it's pretty damning.

Seabrook is the modern comparable it seems, but even he scored several huge goals for Chicago over the years. The Blackhawks don't win in 2013 without him scoring those OT goals against Detroit and Boston. They don't win in 2015 either without him serving as one of their four NHL-caliber defensemen after Rozsival got hurt.

What strikes me with Lowe is that he doesn't even seem to have any famous moments that people recall when his name gets brought up. At least not that I've heard or recall, and I've listened to my dad and local radio guys talk endlessly about the 80s Oilers for the last 25 years, in addition to watching film of a lot of those games.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Since 1967, what HOF'er defenceman has the next-worst Norris voting record than 5, 7, 8, 10 for his career? That's just not good enough to warrant Hall of Fame induction.

My standard for a "Norris finish" to count is "at least 2 top 3 votes."

Based on that standard, here is the Norris record every HHOF defenseman of the Norris Trophy era who has been a finalist (top 3) either never or just 1 time:


Leo Boivin

57-58: 8th
60-61: 5th
61-62: 10th
62-63: 14th

Phil Housley

84-85: 5th
88-89: 9th
89-90: 5th
91-92: 3rd
92-93: 5th
98-99: 10th

Harry Howell

55-56: 6th
61-62: 9th
63-64: 5th
64-65: 9th
65-66: 6th
66-67: 1st
67-68: 10th

Kevin Lowe

81-82: 10th
87-88: 5th
88-89: 8th

Serge Savard

72-73: 6th
74-75: 5th
75-76: 5th
76-77: 5th
77-78: 8th
78-79: 4th

Sergei Zubov

93-94: 4th
99-00: 9th
00-01: 8th
02-03: 8th
05-06: 3rd
06-07: 9th

The HHOF defensemen with the worst Norris records are Lowe and Boivin, way worse than anyone else. They are followed by Housley and Zubov. I'm not sure if Howell and Savard's records are even the next worse; I didn't refine my criteria that much.

IMO, Housley got more significantly more Norris votes than he should have in his career, as dmen who are towards the top of the league in scoring among defensemen often get enough votes to have "placements," since a handful of writers obviously view the Norris as an Art Ross for defensemen. I also think Zubov got more votes than he should have in 93-94, when he was a Housley-like dman. (Zubov's subsequent Norris votes are "true," however).

Regardless, Boivin and Lowe are the worst regular season defensemen of the modern era in the HHOF by far. Once you factor in playoffs, I think there is a good case for Housley to join them at the bottom.

IMO, Zubov was a poor induction, as well, but nowhere near as poor as Boivin, Lowe, or Housley.
____

Edit: To directly answer your question, the second worst Norris record of a HHOF defenseman who played after 1967 would be either Phil Housley or Sergei Zubov.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

i feel like wilson is the liut of dmen. so i guess he should be on deck soon?

Do you mean Randy Carlyle? Wilson got in with Lowe.

FWIW, their Norris records:

Doug Wilson

80-81: 8th
81-82: 1st
82-83: 4th
84-85: 4th
89-90: 3rd

Randy Carlyle

80-81: 1st
81-82: 13th
84-85: 7th

Wilson's record is actually similar to Rob Blake's. Carlyle had the worst career of any Norris winner by far, and IMO, would be an even worse induction than Kevin Lowe.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Do you mean Randy Carlyle? Wilson got in with Lowe.

FWIW, their Norris records:

Doug Wilson

80-81: 8th
81-82: 1st
82-83: 4th
84-85: 4th
89-90: 3rd

Randy Carlyle

80-81: 1st
81-82: 13th
84-85: 7th

Wilson's record is actually similar to Rob Blake's. Carlyle had the worst career of any Norris winner by far, and IMO, would be an even worse induction than Kevin Lowe.

i mean if wilson is in now, his goalie version liut should probably be waiting for a phone call. 80s star, played into the 90s but fell off dramatically after 1990. mostly forgotten today but comes up every now and then in a "hey you know who we never talk about" way.

liut's all-star record (his first two years predate the vezina)

1980: 3rd
1981: 1st
1987: 2nd
1990: 4th

and i know you hate stray votes but

1984: 8th (8 pts, no idea how many ballots)
1986: 8th (4 ballots)
1988: 12th (2 ballots)

pretty identical all-star placements to wilson, no?

and liut has an excellent hart record, while wilson has an impressive one for an 80s dman who wasn't bourque, coffey, or howe.

someday subban vs carlyle could be a good conversation

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

i mean if wilson is in now, his goalie version liut should probably be waiting for a phone call. 80s star, played into the 90s but fell off dramatically after 1990. mostly forgotten today but comes up every now and then in a "hey you know who we never talk about" way.

liut's all-star record (his first two years predate the vezina)

1980: 3rd
1981: 1st
1987: 2nd
1990: 4th

and i know you hate stray votes but

1984: 8th (8 pts, no idea how many ballots)
1986: 8th (4 ballots)
1988: 12th (2 ballots)

pretty identical all-star placements to wilson, no?

and liut has an excellent hart record, while wilson has an impressive one for an 80s dman who wasn't bourque, coffey, or howe.

someday subban vs carlyle could be a good conversation

Oh I get it now. I agree that Liut would be in already if standards for goalie were anything close to standards for the other positions. But when they won't even induct Cujo or Barrasso...

Subban's Norris record is probably better than you thought:

P.K. Subban

12-13: 1st
14-15: 3rd
17-18: 3rd

If his career didn't fall off a cliff, I'd say Subban would actually be trending in a HHOF direction. But it did fall off that cliff.

 

[Moose Head]

Phil Housley, Dave Andreychuk, Guy Carbonneau, and Kevin Lowe have 1 2nd Team AS selection between them. As you say, who on earth was pushing for these guys to get into the HHOF?

And yeah, it does make you long for the days when Clark Gillies - a 2x First Team All-Star - was easily the worst modern guy in there.

Carbonneau at least has an exceptional Selke voting record, so he can have a claim to be elite at something.

Kevin Lowe is a Don Awrey or Terry Harper level guy. Good players you want to go to battle with, but that’s it.

 

[Voight]

7? Detroit in 2002 had 9, and Datsyuk is probably going to be one too =)

I guess their argument is all of the Oilers guys were in their primes when they won the cup(s).

Habs in 77 had 9 HHOF'ers. 64 Leafs also had 9.

When Datsyuk makes it, I believe the 2002 DRW will set the record with 10.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Bruce McCurdy is a great guy and an outstanding media personality / journalist -- in fact, he's probably my favorite Oilers'-related media person ever -- but I'm gonna disagree with him, here.

These tributes to Kevin Lowe, when discussing his actual playing ability, tend to boil down to "he was a shut-down guy". I mean, it's an important thing, but was he really that good at it? To me, he wasn't. He was above-average at his best, and just as his best years were fading (after 1987), he started getting a little bit of media attention (his Norris-voting finishes were 5, 7, 8, 10 over an eight-season period). Bizarrely, he seems to have gotten 2 first-place Norris votes in 1988... for reasons I can't understand.

My question would be: Since 1967, what HOF'er defenceman has the next-worst Norris voting record than 5, 7, 8, 10 for his career? That's just not good enough to warrant Hall of Fame induction.

Thanks for that.

That is my opinion, also. But I wasn't seeing anyone else stating that. Good to hear it from someone who saw him play a lot.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I guess their argument is all of the Oilers guys were in their primes when they won the cup(s).

Habs in 77 had 9 HHOF'ers. 64 Leafs also had 9.

When Datsyuk makes it, I believe the 2002 DRW will set the record with 10.

I think the record is the 1973 Habs (11) - Lafleur, H. Richard, Mahovlich, Cournoyer, Lemaire, Shutt, Robinson, Savard, Lapointe, Laperriere, Dryden. Plus Bowman if you're counting coaches (who, of course, also coached the 2002 Wings).

Proportionately, it might to the 1923 Senators (80%) - Nighbor, Clancy, Benedict, Denneny, G. Boucher, Darragh, Gerard and Broadbent. The only two who aren't in the Hall of Lionel Hitchman (who had a long, successful career - later playing with Eddie Shore in Boston) and Harry Helman (no idea who this is).

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Possibly among the silliest, ill-informed threads in the history of these boards.

Lowe should have been inducted decades ago.

Anyone who saw those Oilers or the 1994 Rangers teams play recognized that other than Gretzky or Messier - and in the Rangers case Mike Richter - no player was as vital to those championships.

Defenseman like Paul Coffey and Scott Niedermayer may have greater offensive numbers, but neither brought the value to a team that Lowe did.

Guys like Guy Lapointe and Doug Harvey are deservedly in the Hall of Fame and Lowe was that player in his era.

I started watching in 94. Lowe was a depth defense man on that Rangers team.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Lowe doesn't have any awards either, and Hossa was a defensive-winger lynch pin on 3 Cup Winners, in an era where it was much much more difficult to keep a good team together. If Kane/Toews are the Gretzky/Messier of the Hawks, then Hossa is the Kurri, and Sharp the Anderson (although at ES the Anderson spot would go to Saad for the 3rd Cup).

Also, an AS record of 2, 3, 3, 3, 6, is very impressive, especially considering how little teammate support he had in what were probably his peak years physically.

Was there a better two-way winger from Hossa's era? Some guys were better offensively, but most of those weren't even close defensively. Lehtinen was clearly better defensively, but not close offensively.

Elias?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Do you mean Randy Carlyle? Wilson got in with Lowe.

FWIW, their Norris records:

Doug Wilson

80-81: 8th
81-82: 1st
82-83: 4th
84-85: 4th
89-90: 3rd

Randy Carlyle

80-81: 1st
81-82: 13th
84-85: 7th

Wilson's record is actually similar to Rob Blake's. Carlyle had the worst career of any Norris winner by far, and IMO, would be an even worse induction than Kevin Lowe.

I think Carlyle is the only Norris winner (not still active) that is not in the Hall. And his win of the Norris was certainly not deserved.

 

[overpass]

Hossa getting a couple Selke votes isn’t really reflective of being the best defensive winger in the early 00s.

Hossa wasn’t the best defensive winger in the league yet while he was in Ottawa, but he was very good right from the start. It was a surprise because he was advertised as a one-way scorer when he was drafted, but in his rookie year he stepped right into the best 3rd line in the league with Radek Bonk and Magnus Arvedson. They were overqualified for a third line, they matched up against opposing top lines all season and did very well, and they were a huge part of Ottawa breaking through to be one of the best teams in the league.

Hossa continued to play with Bonk for the next five seasons. They were promoted to first line status after Yashin left and Jacques Martin kept using them in a matchup role against top lines.

Hossa wasn’t fully developed yet in terms of his defensive hockey sense at this point, but he was still a very good two-way player who used his speed, strength and skill to win battles up and down his wing at both ends of the ice. He wasn’t a big hitter but he could match anyone for strength, which was more important back in the DPE before the middle of the ice opened up. Again, he wasn’t a Selke level player but I would compare him to post-Hitchcock Rick Nash, just a physical beast with speed and skill who used it both ways. You could put him up against any opposing winger and be confident that he would control his wing. And he just kept getting better after Ottawa in terms of defensive awareness and play.

Hossa’s early career negatives were all about struggling to score in the playoffs. He and Bonk could keep their cycle going in the opponent’s end, but they didn’t have much success getting the puck into scoring areas and finishing, especially in close games when everyone was locked in.

I haven’t seen as much of Hossa since he went out west, but I don’t know if he ever became a go-to goal scorer in the playoffs. I think he just got the chance to play on teams where he didn’t have to be. For a guy who scored 525 goals in a low scoring era, he wasn’t really a great “pure” goal scorer who would break open a close game. He scored an unusually low percentage of his goals in the first period and an unusually high percentage in the third period—often on the counter attack while the other team was pressing to score. He’s fourth in regular season goals scored since he entered the league (with 525 goals) but only 9th in scoring the first goal (with 76). Looking at goals scored on the counter, he has more regular season SHG than anyone since he entered the league (34) and more empty net goals than anyone (40). You know who had a very similar goal scoring pattern? Wayne Gretzky. Not a typical “pure” goal scorer, rarely scored the first goal of the game, and scored a ton on the counter, included short handed and empty nets.

In the playoffs, Hossa is 7th in goals since he entered the league (52) but in more GP than anyone else. I think his drop in goals during the playoffs is telling—he just doesn’t score as much when both teams are locked in. I think that’s his biggest negative—not his defensive play—but I would support his indication without thinking twice.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think Carlyle is the only Norris winner (not still active) that is not in the Hall. And his win of the Norris was certainly not deserved.

Yes, with Wilson in, Carlyle is the only eligible Norris winner not in. His win was before my time, but from the outside, it sure looks like he didn't deserve it.

Elias?

I love Elias and think he's an easy HHOFer at some point, but he was no Hossa without the puck. If Elias was a good defensive player, Hossa was a great one.

 

[Kamina]

Hatcher and Suter didn't win 6 Stanley Cups. I don't see why the committee would give them similar treatment. Lowe got in because of the Cups and his popularity.

I wouldn't call his connections and being in the OBC 'popularity'.

 

[FerrisRox]

Possibly among the silliest, ill-informed threads in the history of these boards.

Lowe should have been inducted decades ago.

Anyone who saw those Oilers or the 1994 Rangers teams play recognized that other than Gretzky or Messier - and in the Rangers case Mike Richter - no player was as vital to those championships.

Defenseman like Paul Coffey and Scott Niedermayer may have greater offensive numbers, but neither brought the value to a team that Lowe did.

Guys like Guy Lapointe and Doug Harvey are deservedly in the Hall of Fame and Lowe was that player in his era.

I have to give you credit for posting the silliest, most ill-informed thread in the history of this board and actually opening that post by saying that the thread you are responding to is silly and ill-informed.

We are through the looking glass, people...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I have to give you credit for posting the silliest, most ill-informed thread in the history of this board and actually opening that post by saying that the thread you are responding to is silly and ill-informed.

We are through the looking glass, people...

Its the Roy Cohn strategy.

 

[Oheao]

Yes, with Wilson in, Carlyle is the only eligible Norris winner not in. His win was before my time, but from the outside, it sure looks like he didn't deserve it.



I love Elias and think he's an easy HHOFer at some point, but he was no Hossa without the puck. If Elias was a good defensive player, Hossa was a great one.

It makes even less since when you consider his time as a coach. Why was Toronto so horrible defensively if he was a Norris-level defensemen? You think defense would be his strong-suit.

 

[Johnny Engine]

It makes even less since when you consider his time as a coach. Why was Toronto so horrible defensively if he was a Norris-level defensemen? You think defense would be his strong-suit.

Toronto was horrible defensively because none of their defensemen or centres were any good at defending with or without the help of Carlyle.

 

[Kshahdoo]

He of course wasn't as good as Mikhailov...