Is Jagr the best player of all time?

[Psyfer]

Come on, even Lemieux himself said Gretzky is the best ever

That is a stupid reason to claim someone is better though and if you asked Gretzky who was better he would say Lemieux it's called being humble.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

Some amazing things in this thread:

Someone suggesting Jagr is #1
Someone saying he doesn't break top 30
People saying Lemieux is #1
The blatant disrespect of Gordie who is #4 at worst, and has a very good claim to being above Lemieux

Can we get this thread moved to the History section so I can watch guys like seventies, qpq or Vadim slap some people around? This is getting silly.

 

[Bruinswillwin77]

Gretzky has more assists than anyone else has points

#/Thread

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

This thread should of been closed long time ago. Only 4 names can appear before the words best player of all time

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Jagrs prime crossed with lemieux and lemieux was easily a level above him. So the answer can only be no

 

[ResilientBeast]

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Howe
4. Lemieux
5. Harvey
6. Beliveau
7. Bourque
8. Lidstrom
9. Richard
10. Hull
11. Shore
12. Morenz
13. Mikita
14. Kelly
15. Potvin
16. Messier
17. Esposito
18. Jagr

Excluding goalies, but even with them, Jagr is for sure a top 20 player of all time, hastily made list of the top of my head. I don't think I've missed anyone

 

[Hunter368]

Jagr best if all time? Not even close, easy no. He's not even the best player in the Pens history never mind the NHL

 

[I am not exposed]

Lol. No.

Legendary player.

 

[MessierII]

No but he's one of them. One of the best forwards ever and arguably the best European ever.

 

[pitcher]

You assume Lemieux's ppg wouldnt go down?

If Gretzky retired in 1991 his PPG would be (even more) insane.

Lemieux managed that ppg while fighting cancer and playing with horribe back pain that would put the vast majority of players out of the lineup. During his peak.

Oh and yeah he came back after 3 years of retirement, out of shape, during deep puck era, and his ppg for his age was higher than what Gretzky had at the same age. If Lemieux had a healthy career, imo chances are that his ppg might have been higher than what he has now, mostly because 1)his peak years were when he had health problems and 2)contrary to some people beliefs, his seasons with higher ppg are the ones with 60+ games... not the shorter ones and 3)he proved in his comeback that he had the skills to dominate as much if not more than Gretzky in his later years (35+).

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Lemieux managed that ppg while fighting cancer and playing with horribe back pain that would put the vast majority of players out of the lineup. During his peak.

Oh and yeah he came back after 3 years of retirement, out of shape, during deep puck era, and his ppg for his age was higher than what Gretzky had at the same age. If Lemieux had a healthy career, imo chances are that his ppg might have been higher than what he has now, mostly because 1)his peak years were when he had health problems and 2)contrary to some people beliefs, his seasons with higher ppg are the ones with 60+ games... not the shorter ones and 3)he proved in his comeback that he had the skills to dominate as much if not more than Gretzky in his later years (35+).

So to sum it up, what if?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Lemieux managed that ppg while fighting cancer and playing with horribe back pain that would put the vast majority of players out of the lineup. During his peak.

Oh and yeah he came back after 3 years of retirement, out of shape, during deep puck era, and his ppg for his age was higher than what Gretzky had at the same age. If Lemieux had a healthy career, imo chances are that his ppg might have been higher than what he has now, mostly because 1)his peak years were when he had health problems and 2)contrary to some people beliefs, his seasons with higher ppg are the ones with 60+ games... not the shorter ones and 3)he proved in his comeback that he had the skills to dominate as much if not more than Gretzky in his later years (35+).

I hate it when people penalize Gretzky for things he actually did. That you project Lemieux to have done

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Lemieux managed that ppg while fighting cancer and playing with horribe back pain that would put the vast majority of players out of the lineup. During his peak.

Oh and yeah he came back after 3 years of retirement, out of shape, during deep puck era, and his ppg for his age was higher than what Gretzky had at the same age. If Lemieux had a healthy career, imo chances are that his ppg might have been higher than what he has now, mostly because 1)his peak years were when he had health problems and 2)contrary to some people beliefs, his seasons with higher ppg are the ones with 60+ games... not the shorter ones and 3)he proved in his comeback that he had the skills to dominate as much if not more than Gretzky in his later years (35+).

If... If... If...

 

[The Gloaming]

Gretzky has more assists than anyone else in the history of the NHL has points. Think about that for a second. And then figure out who was better.

And then he's also got the most goals out of anyone to top it off.

 

[Sinistril]

Maybe you should do what Adam Oates did and make a long compilation of Gretzky videos and watch it over and over. You'll see him doing things that are absurdly technical in literally every move he makes. The guy was ridiculous and changed the game and he still has more points than anyone else even in a different era. If his body held up as well as Jagr's has, he would have 4000+ points. But it didn't and he long since had nothing to prove.

The only one that really deserves to be in the conversation with him for forwards is 66.

That said, Jagr is solidly in my top 5 forwards.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

Lemieux managed that ppg while fighting cancer and playing with horribe back pain that would put the vast majority of players out of the lineup. During his peak.

Oh and yeah he came back after 3 years of retirement, out of shape, during deep puck era, and his ppg for his age was higher than what Gretzky had at the same age. If Lemieux had a healthy career, imo chances are that his ppg might have been higher than what he has now, mostly because 1)his peak years were when he had health problems and 2)contrary to some people beliefs, his seasons with higher ppg are the ones with 60+ games... not the shorter ones and 3)he proved in his comeback that he had the skills to dominate as much if not more than Gretzky in his later years (35+).

And if Gretzky didn't suffer his back injury, your entire argument vanishes anyway. So.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

And if Gretzky didn't suffer his back injury, your entire argument vanishes anyway. So.

Really really frustrates me when people can't see the difference at some suffering a back injury at 30 years old or at the age of 24 when your fresh of a 199 point season

 

[ScaredStreit]

The only skater you could have a decent change at arguing being better than Gretzky is Orr. That's it. Jagr might be top 10 of all time, almost certainly top 20...but the best?

He even had a teammate that trumps him on the all time list.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

Really really frustrates me when people can't see the difference at some suffering a back injury at 30 years old or at the age of 24 when your fresh of a 199 point season

You have to think that injury had something to do with the noted decline in Gretzky's production, no?

But in the end, that's more of the what if game that I don't really want to get into, because it doesn't matter. Gretzky did what he did, and that's why he's the greatest. Lemieux *might* have done better, but he didn't so it's irrelevant.

 

[LondonKendrick]

Just having a discussion with a buddy. We both don't think it can be Gretzky because of the goal tending back in the day. Any thoughts?

Have to judge a player's dominance vs the rest of the league at the time, Gretzky had more significant separation from other players than Jagr had. To that point, how many seasons was Jagr really 'the guy' maybe none if Lindros didn't run into injury issues. Jagr had comparable talents throughout his career, I wouldn't put him in the Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Orr tier. He's more a longevity project like Ron Francis.

I mean, is Jagr even better than Ovie? Ovie's goal production vs his era makes a better case if that's the standard.

 

[Dustin]

The thing is that regardless of where Jagr sits in an all time list. He now owns and may for a long while the 2nd most points by an NHL player. It's a special place to be and Jagr is a special player. Making the the top 10 of all time list or not does not take away any of the great accomplishments he has done.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

He's more a longevity project like Ron Francis.

Jagr doesn't sniff the big 4, but that's an awful comparison. Jagr was an absolute dominant player who has how many Art Ross'?

Jagr had a huge peak that Francis doesn't come remotely close to and insane longevity, which would be more of he opted not to go to Russia.

Jagr is absolutely one of the all time greats, just not near the Gretzky level.

 

[pitcher]

So to sum it up, what if?

If we were talking about career, about who was the greatest, than yeah, it would be what ifs. I don't see any argument not to have Gretzky number one greatest player of all time. All I was making was responding to someone saying his PPG would be lower. How fitting it is that I'm called on what if by responding to a what if post

But we are talking about who was the best. You don't need 1500 games to analyze how good a player is/was. In his peak, even with all the health issues Lemieux had, he proved, in my opinion, that he was a better player. There is no what if there. "Even with his health issues". That 160 in 60 season is what makes it for me. Not "how much points he would make if healthy that season"... what actually happen, in the circumstances in which it happened.

 

[Dustin]

Jagr doesn't sniff the big 4, but that's an awful comparison. Jagr was an absolute dominant player who has how many Art Ross'?

Jagr had a huge peak that Francis doesn't come remotely close to and insane longevity, which would be more of he opted not to go to Russia.

Jagr is absolutely one of the all time greats, just not near the Gretzky level.

I have noticed this strange phenomenon in recent years that unless a player is considered one of the top 5 players of all time they are not great players. Seems very strange to me.

Not being on Gretzky, Lemieux, etc level doesn't negate how amazing a player like Jagr is.

 

[pictman]

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Howe
4. Lemieux
5. Harvey
6. Beliveau
7. Bourque
8. Lidstrom
9. Richard
10. Hull
11. Shore
12. Morenz
13. Mikita
14. Kelly
15. Potvin
16. Messier
17. Esposito
18. Jagr

Excluding goalies, but even with them, Jagr is for sure a top 20 player of all time, hastily made list of the top of my head. I don't think I've missed anyone

Good list and pretty accurate.Im trying to think if you have missed anyone but haven't got anything yet