Speculation: Is it time for Holland to step down?

[evolutionbaby]

Yzerman and Nill (especially Nill and his offseason thus far) wont be able to make these types of moves every year. As the poster above said, they were in favourable spot to make these moves, unfortunately for the Wings, it seems like they have been in that same spot but have done nothing. If either of those two GMs were in Hollands shoes, would they have been able to swing something? No one will know.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

As much as Holland's offseason moves (or lack thereof) frustrate me, the Wings continue to make the playoffs every year while battling absurd amounts of injuries, while simultaneously putting together one of the top prospect pools in the NHL despite not even having anything resembling a top draft pick. Ya it may not be sexy but he gets the job done. Some of you guys just need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. We have a prospect pool that will keep the Wings competitive for years to come.

Comparing Holland to Nill and Yzerman isn't fair. Yzerman and Nill both had the opportunity to cherry pick the teams that had the most favorable situations. Both Tampa and Dallas have already gone through there rebuilding years and have plenty of youth built from their high draft picks. Detroit is on a different part of the life cycle, we are in rebuild the phase, and Holland is doing a great job of that.

If you want to look at the big picture, you will see that the Wings are slowly but surely turning into a lottery team.

3-4 more years of being a bubble team, followed by the bottom falling out.

No Wings defensive prospect will be promoted this season. You won't know what you have in Sproul/the rest of the top ranked D prospects, for at least 4-5 more years. That is very scary.

The illusion that the Wings prospects will save the Wings, will die once 13/40 are no longer able to play at an elite level.

 

[bababooeyII]

As much as Holland's offseason moves (or lack thereof) frustrate me, the Wings continue to make the playoffs every year while battling absurd amounts of injuries, while simultaneously putting together one of the top prospect pools in the NHL despite not even having anything resembling a top draft pick. Ya it may not be sexy but he gets the job done. Some of you guys just need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. We have a prospect pool that will keep the Wings competitive for years to come.

Comparing Holland to Nill and Yzerman isn't fair. Yzerman and Nill both had the opportunity to cherry pick the teams that had the most favorable situations. Both Tampa and Dallas have already gone through there rebuilding years and have plenty of youth built from their high draft picks. Detroit is on a different part of the life cycle, we are in rebuild the phase, and Holland is doing a great job of that.

Without Datsyuk and Zetterberg this team is an AHL team, it's loaded with 3rd and fourth line guys and spare parts. The Wings have nice prospects, NHL quality prospects but no one can say they're superstars in the making. Comparing Holland to Nill and Yzerman is totally fair, especially Yzerman because the Bolts made the playoffs last season and did as well as the Wings, yet he didn't rest on his laurels but went out and made moves to make his team better. And in the case of Yzerman, his farm team is stacked as much as ours is. And look at what Jim Nill has done in 1yr in Dallas, look at their center ice men, they're deep. Compare that to the Wings center ice men.

 

[evolutionbaby]

If you want to look at the big picture, you will see that the Wings are slowly but surely turning into a lottery team.

3-4 more years of being a bubble team, followed by the bottom falling out.

No Wings defensive prospect will be promoted this season. You won't know what you have in Sproul/the rest of the top ranked D prospects for at least 4-5 more years. That is very scary.

And what is wrong with our D prospects? Oulette and Sproul are high end prospects,with Marchenko and Backman as well. While no stars up front we are fairly deep as well with a few more good years out of Z and D. We missed out on Fa's this year but I dont consider any of them to really be a big miss. Last year we got two of our top targets, prior to that we had Suter except Parise got in his head. If Suter signed here Parise was back in NJ. It was frustrating that Kenny had the space and didnt throw more at Parise but it sounds like if they were going to play together it was in Min. We'll be fine. There is a lot of over reacting going on right now and why? Because we didnt get Dan Boyle?!?! The Quincey signing especially at that price is absurd but cmon guys its not that bad.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

And what is wrong with our D prospects? Oulette and Sproul are high end prospects,with Marchenko and Backman as well. While no stars up front we are fairly deep as well with a few more good years out of Z and D. We missed out on Fa's this year but I dont consider any of them to really be a big miss. Last year we got two of our top targets, prior to that we had Suter except Parise got in his head. If Suter signed here Parise was back in NJ. It was frustrating that Kenny had the space and didnt throw more at Parise but it sounds like if they were going to play together it was in Min. We'll be fine. There is a lot of over reacting going on right now and why? Because we didnt get Dan Boyle?!?! The Quincey signing especially at that price is absurd but cmon guys its not that bad.

You must not come around here very often, if you think i'm basing my opinion off of one failed off season.

Ken Holland is building a bridge to nowhere.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I never once said this,

"If someone is okay with a GM because "Well, at least he did something, other than Holland",

but you put that in your rebuttal nonetheless, I did nothing different and used no different language than you did.

That was the general assertion when I asked about what Shero has done.

please go back to where YOU FEEL i STARTED the comparision between the two and clearly look to see if I did just that, I did not is the answer.

Your first post said for us to look at both GMs' track records.

You did when you responded to Frk It suggesting Shero "ew when was the last time shero did anything as a GM."

You notice I didn't start a comparison, there. I asked about one specific GM.

I am not in favour of switching holland for shero, have never suggessted that be something we do. I have gone about reminding those who do try and discredit shero or any other name brought forth based on their track record that the only fair way to compare them to holland is from day one of their tenure vs that exact same day forward for holland, whatever that calander date happens to be, ie, 4 years ago, 5 years ago, 7 years ago, 10 years ago et al

And I said it doesn't make sense to "compare" them to Holland when in this hypothetical scenario Holland is not fit to do his job and a replacement is being looked at.

Look at Shero's credentials and moves as they stand and what his team was able to to as a result of his moves.

Either way, I don't think Shero would be the worst choice, but his recent track record before being fired would worry me a great deal if he was hired.

 

[r0bert8841]

If you want to look at the big picture, you will see that the Wings are slowly but surely turning into a lottery team.

3-4 more years of being a bubble team, followed by the bottom falling out.

What gives you that idea?? Our top 5 prospect pool? All slew of young talented players??

No Wings defensive prospect will be promoted this season.

You don't know this.

You won't know what you have in Sproul/the rest of the top ranked D prospects, for at least 4-5 more years. That is very scary.

You never know what happens in the next 4-5 years. I am confident Holland will have a solid defense put together by then that has a bright future.

 

[Henkka]

Do I think it's time? Yes. Do the people that matter think it's time? No.

What I do find interesting is that Nill and Yzerman haven't followed the Holland mould entirely. Yzerman just cleaned a bunch of fat from his roster, had no problem shipping off Conacher for Bishop right after Cory had a breakout year, and got solid value for MSL. Nill has made 2 big trades in consecutive years.

Now, are they in different positions than Holland with respect to their organizations? In the past, definitely. But now? I'm not so sure. Now is the time for Holland to get creative or move outside his comfort zone and yet here he is pulling the same old moves. Both clubs are getting creative so that they may progress; Holland has watched his club decline and stagnate at best.

All this makes me wonder why it is that Hollands two protégés have been so bold. Obviously there's plenty to learn from Holland, but they've surpassed him at least in ingenuity, which IMO, is one of the most important virtues in the cap world. They don't have the resume that Holland does, but will anyone ever have a resume like that in the cap world again? Probably not. Part of me wonders if Holland is surrounded by a substantial number of yes men or whether he even considers bold, roster-altering moves that might be suggested to him.

Either way, Holland is stale in today's world.

It's just not fair to compare Holland situation against Yzerman/Nill -situations. They got crap teams with high picks without a strong core, and they have been aggressive to acquire one. Lots of cap space to make UFA splashes, and then trade other asset, at least Yzerman is clearly using that GM book. Looks like Nill also. So far, during his 4 seasons, Yzerman has won 2 playoff-series at 2011 he called pure luck because of other teams injuries (Pens had both Malkin and Crosby out against them etc.). Other 2 years have been out of the playoffs and last year 1st round exit sweep. Still long way to go at Tampa. It not reasonable to judge Nill yet, just too early for a GM job. Let's see where they are after 4-5 years.

We have had that strong core already at Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Lidström/Kronwall, so you kind of have to be stale and go with them, because they are the stars and that center duo is still one of the best what you can get in NHL. I'm quite sure Nill and Yzerman would have kept both also.

I'd like to see Yzerman and Nill after few Cups and long-term success how they operate. They operate now like Holland operated on his first years. Aggressive, burning assets. The manager "game" changes totally after success. It's the hardest years you can ever live as a GM. Years after success.

For example, it will be Interesting to see how great GM Stan Bowman will be, when those 10M contracts will hit for Toews and Kane...?

Only GM who really has done just hand down supreme overall job at recent years have been Dean Lombardi. Rebuilded the Kings through high picks, drafted great for every possible position and has made phenomenal great trades and have had superb cap management. No weaknesses on his perfect team and their drafting system is still producing talent.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

And I said it doesn't make sense to "compare" them to Holland when in this hypothetical scenario Holland is not fit to do his job and a replacement is being looked at.

Look at Shero's credentials and moves as they stand and what his team was able to to as a result of his moves.

Either way, I don't think Shero would be the worst choice, but his recent track record before being fired would worry me a great deal if he was hired.

so you feel its not a good idea to compare two poeple against each other if you're looking to replace one guy with the other but rather, you should just look at the other guys body of work despite both guys being in the same employment position over a very defined period of time(in this case the time both men had the same job with the same abilities to make decisions)?

so if a team is looking for a new coach you shouldnt compare him against other available coaches but rather just look at what that other available coach has done as being independent of what the current coach has been able to do, ie, mutually exclusive?(which in itself ends up being a comparision against the current guy)

i think when you replace someone with soemone else you do look to see what both guys have done, examine both bodies of work and do so by comapring both people doing the same job during the same period.

 

[ShanahanMan]

http://www.thedetroitsportssite.com...-altered-by-a-disgruntled-red-wings-fan/43615

 

[kilgoretrout]

If you want to look at the big picture, you will see that the Wings are slowly but surely turning into a lottery team.

3-4 more years of being a bubble team, followed by the bottom falling out.

No Wings defensive prospect will be promoted this season. You won't know what you have in Sproul/the rest of the top ranked D prospects, for at least 4-5 more years. That is very scary.

The illusion that the Wings prospects will save the Wings, will die once 13/40 are no longer able to play at an elite level.

So, we will have no idea what we have in Sproul, Ouelett, Backman, Marchenko, etc. until they're 26 and 27? Pretty sure we'll have a projection before then.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

So, we will have no idea what we have in Sproul, Ouelett, Backman, Marchenko, etc. until they're 26 and 27? Pretty sure we'll have a projection before then.

i dont think they will become legit nhl top pairing point producing dmen untill that time

i dont see any of them becoming 25 plus minute a night, 40 plus pt dmen before the age of 26

 

[PullHard]

i dont think they will become legit nhl top pairing point producing dmen untill that time

i dont see any of them becoming 25 plus minute a night, 40 plus pt dmen before the age of 26

Well, I think we'd be lucky if any of them became that ever, but they certainly won't get enough ice time or opportunity to do that before they are 26.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

so you feel its not a good idea to compare two poeple against each other if you're looking to replace one guy with the other but rather, you should just look at the other guys body of work despite both guys being in the same employment position over a very defined period of time(in this case the time both men had the same job with the same abilities to make decisions)?

so if a team is looking for a new coach you shouldnt compare him against other available coaches but rather just look at what that other available coach has done as being independent of what the current coach has been able to do, ie, mutually exclusive?(which in itself ends up being a comparision against the current guy)

i think when you replace someone with soemone else you do look to see what both guys have done, examine both bodies of work and do so by comapring both people doing the same job during the same period.

That is completely different.

Honestly if you don't understand by this point there is no point in us going back in forth about it.

 

[r0bert8841]

Without Datsyuk and Zetterberg this team is an AHL team, it's loaded with 3rd and fourth line guys and spare parts. The Wings have nice prospects, NHL quality prospects but no one can say they're superstars in the making.

Its loaded with a ton of young players, players that will continue to learn and improve each year. Don't think Abdelkader, Helm, Nyquist, Dekeyser, Smith, Andersson, Tatar, etc... have hit their ceilings. You never know where they will go. And thats not a good argument, Can you really say that about any prospect drafted outside the top 5 picks is a super star in the making?? We often don't know where the next superstar will come from. But we have no reason to believe that Holland won't find a way to put together a solid core for the future.

Comparing Holland to Nill and Yzerman is totally fair, especially Yzerman because the Bolts made the playoffs last season and did as well as the Wings, yet he didn't rest on his laurels but went out and made moves to make his team better. And in the case of Yzerman, his farm team is stacked as much as ours is. And look at what Jim Nill has done in 1yr in Dallas, look at their center ice men, they're deep. Compare that to the Wings center ice men.

What? You did nothing to counter my argument. The Wings are rebuilding right now and are trying to put together a core for the future. Dallas and Tampa have finished rebuilding and already have their cores for the future.

Its irrelevant where the teams finished in the standings. The only thing that matters is that D+Z only have a few years left before they need to be replaced while Stamkos+Hedman/Seguin+Benn have many good years left in them. Dallas and Tampa can afford to trade away prospects and draft picks to put together a good supporting cast for their cores, while the Wings need to conserve their prospects until they can find their new core.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

If Sproul and Ouellet were put on the Kings, Hawks or Bruins, what are the odds they end up playing their first full season?

 

[InjuredChoker]

If Sproul and Ouellet were put on the Kings, Hawks or Bruins, what are the odds they end up playing their first full season?

sproul wouldn't play on any of them, 99% odds on that.

ouellet might make kings but unlikely. could be better player than regehr but regehr better fit. hawks, very unlikely unless they deal leddy. B's very unlikely, but he could have shot depending on the moves they make.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

You don't think Gator, Helm and Andersson have hit their ceilings? We know exactly what they are at this point. Life time bottom six players.

I can say with extreme confidence that none of those players will be any different next season.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

That is completely different.

Honestly if you don't understand by this point there is no point in us going back in forth about it.

why is it different?

their is no need to smug, just explain yourself and why one rule stnd applies to some poeple but not to others.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

why is it different?

Because it is different to compare potential candidates for a job than compare a candidate to who you are currently trying to remove from their current position.

 

[r0bert8841]

You don't think Gator, Helm and Andersson have hit their ceilings? We know exactly what they are at this point. Life time bottom six players.

I can say with extreme confidence that neither of those players will be any different next season.

What are you talking about?? Players on average peak at 30 years old. They all have a good amount of time to learn and improve before then. Believe it or not, these are human beings, they learn, grow and change.

 

[SoupNazi]

how many conference finals has holland brought us to during that same period? why isnt he held to that same standard, shouldnt he then be fired if shero was for that same failure?

has holland done a better job then shero at keeping the red wings a contender?

i tend to think that the person who says "just beacsue he hasent made the team better its ok because he hasent made them much worse" has their standards way too low, in my opinion

Because standards vary from team to team. Not all GMs are held to the same standard.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

As long as the Illitches own the Red Wings Ken Hollands job is safe, They like the guy to much.

 

[drw02]

We wouldn't have to hire a GM from within. There are plenty of good GM candidates with other NHL organizations, overseas or even in juniors. All you really need is someone with a vision and some balls. Blue Jackets got Jarmo from overseas, Flames hired Treliving from Phoenix, Canucks got Benning, Etc, etc. There are always good options out there.

 

[Henkka]

Status quo may indeed be the right direction for this team. Keep in mind last year the team was banged up. With a healthy squad, they would have had a higher seeding for sure. The Bruins, who were considered to be the top team in the east, didn't even make it to the conference finals. The Hawks, considered to be the best in the West, didn't even make it to the cup finals.

There is part of me that wishes Holland was more active, but I don't want him trading our key pieces away. I am already pissed about him trading for Legwand last year and then not resigning him. That was a waste of a talented player that we could have used for our future.

By signing Quincey for a short term deal, he has the groundwork in place to promote the young defensemen to the NHL. I like the idea of a youth movement right now.

Exactly same thoughts.

I also want to see that youth movement WITHOUT selling our stars, with a mediocre success, without tanking, and even if it would waste Zeta/Dats best years. Our next organizational peak will be somewhere near at Zeta's retiring season. Datsyuk is then already gone and he won't win his 3rd Cup. That's reality. Zetterberg could get his 2nd one. He will not be impact player then, only an ultimate leader. When you do the math and calculate when our core of best prospects will peak at average age, it will be somewhere at 2019-2020.

I'm already fine with the realism that we won't win any Cups for next five years. But I still like to refuse to sell our stars for tanking. It's just against the winning morality, intended losing by selling your best players is not an option. I see also an idea at this "superstar veterans mentoring kids" -plan, it could have as good benefit at prospect development as tanking. And at same time you don't have to see losing crap hockey with a crap team. That's the difference.

Winning the Cup without tanking will be better than any feeling in the future. It's the ultimate challenge, what I want to see happen. I've already enjoyed seeing the Cup win from normal re-building through a draft and trades (97-98). Still those other GMs are huting their first. I've also seen winning the Cup with money (2002) and I've also seen winning the Cup with salary cap (2008). Why not win that Cup in an extreme hard way, without normal tanking with crap years/high picks + in a cap world. No one has done that before. And I think Holland loves that challenge, he even mentioned it by himself few years ago.

I loved to see Holland pissed off after yesterday in an interview. He was pissed off because had to go with plan Z and sign Quincey. Letting him go would have been poor asset management, but it was the last possible scenario he had. He wanted to change things that didnöt happen, so he choose stability with familiar guy who knows the system once again. That beeing pissed off was a sign, that he is not satisfied for himself and that usually starts good things to happen. He cares our team even though you fans won't care about him anymore.