Speculation: Is it time for Holland to step down?

[Run the Jewels]

I would imagine he would have wanted to come here more than Buffalo. Considering they just bought him out because he didn't want to be there.

He also just signed with a contender, and we were still widely considered a legit contender in 2011.

So no, not 100%. But I don't see why he wouldn't. I mean he did have interest in us this year too, just had more interest in Pitt. Seems pretty likely we could have had him, if we had at least tried.

It's pretty clear Holland is asleep at the wheel. He finds out about guys like Brent Burns and James Wisniewski being available via trade when all of us find out. He doesn't seem to work the phones much to see what's available. And why should he, he clearly had no idea Nick Lidstrom and Brian Rafalski would retire?

And of course you trade prospects to get a first pairing d-man like Jay Bouwmeester. The Blues gave up very little in a 1st round pick and two prospects. What are the odds any of our prospects turn out to be as good as Bouwmeester? Very low. Cundari is basically Adam Almqvist. AA clearly fits into the Red Wings plans, right?

 

[Kyleftlx]

It's pretty clear Holland is asleep at the wheel. He finds out about guys like Brent Burns and James Wisniewski being available via trade when all of us find out. He doesn't seem to work the phones much to see what's available. And why should he, he clearly had no idea Nick Lidstrom and Brian Rafalski would retire?

And of course you trade prospects to get a first pairing d-man like Jay Bouwmeester. The Blues gave up very little in a 1st round pick and two prospects. What are the odds any of our prospects turn out to be as good as Bouwmeester? Very low. Cundari is basically Adam Almqvist. AA clearly fits into the Red Wings plans, right?

Just because the Blues gave up what they gave up to acquire Bouwmeester doesn't mean that CGY was going to accept AA + Thomas McCollum + a 1st from Detroit for Bouwmeester. That's pretty much the Detroit equivalent of the trade, but CGY wasn't interested in that from DET. It's been stated since then that Detroit was asked for Nyquist, Tatar, 1st for CGY and STILL got rejected.

In hindsight, yeah, the deal CGY accepted was a terrible return for a top dman, but they valued the goalie pretty high and thought Cundari could make it at the NHL level, and they really wanted that 1st rounder. Just because Kenny didn't make that deal doesn't mean he didn't try hard to make it happen.

If anything, the JBo deal not happening is more of a reflection on Calgary's scouting staff being bad than anything else.

 

[Frk It]

Just because the Blues gave up what they gave up to acquire Bouwmeester doesn't mean that CGY was going to accept AA + Thomas McCollum + a 1st from Detroit for Bouwmeester. That's pretty much the Detroit equivalent of the trade, but CGY wasn't interested in that from DET. It's been stated since then that Detroit was asked for Nyquist, Tatar, 1st for CGY and STILL got rejected.

In hindsight, yeah, the deal CGY accepted was a terrible return for a top dman, but they valued the goalie pretty high and thought Cundari could make it at the NHL level, and they really wanted that 1st rounder. Just because Kenny didn't make that deal doesn't mean he didn't try hard to make it happen.

If anything, the JBo deal not happening is more of a reflection on Calgary's scouting staff being bad than anything else.

Hard for other teams to know how good our prospects are, when Holland doesn't play them in the NHL until they're 25.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I don't think the Jbo misfire is really a fault of the scouting staff. If we did play them earlier and they did pan out, nobody would have wanted him to make that offer.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Hard for other teams to know how good our prospects are, when Holland doesn't play them in the NHL until they're 25.

There's a ton of evidence Holland is reactive and doesn't have any real motivation to do his job. Hell he let Nill take two top scouts with him and Nill also went after Hakkan Andersson.

So yeah, nothing to indicate Holland is actually doing much of anything that you'd expect from a competent general manager. Maybe if Babcock leaves after this year and Holland loses Hakkan Andersson to Nill some people will start to become concerned about the direction of the organization.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

A ton of evidence he has no motivation to do his job? Do tell.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

There's a ton of evidence Holland is reactive and doesn't have any real motivation to do his job. Hell he let Nill take two top scouts with him and Nill also went after Hakkan Andersson.

So yeah, nothing to indicate Holland is actually doing much of anything that you'd expect from a competent general manager. Maybe if Babcock leaves after this year and Holland loses Hakkan Andersson to Nill some people will start to become concerned about the direction of the organization.

I guess you missed that article then, That pretty much said that the Illitch family is pleased with the direction that the team is going. Sounds like they're happy with the way that Holland is moving this club.

 

[Frk It]

I guess you missed that article then, That pretty much said that the Illitch family is pleased with the direction that the team is going. Sounds like they're happy with the way that Holland is moving this club.

I don't really see a clear sense of direction with this team. I hear one, but then I don't see anything that jives with it.

Illitches are happy as long as we continued to add a number to the playoff streak, and as long as 13 af 40 are on the roster that will happen. No matter how incompetent Holland has been the last 4-5 years.

 

[Henkka]

I don't really see a clear sense of direction with this team. I hear one, but then I don't see anything that jives with it.

Add kids on the roster smoothly and let them learn from proven veterans good hockey habits. The Red Wings way.

Not the Edmonton Oilers way, where raw kids are promoted instantly in and they are learning bad hockey habits too young and too soon and are now overpaid and can't do anything to turn that franchise around. Some 1st rounders have already been traded away from there like case-Gagner.

I like our way.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

I don't really see a clear sense of direction with this team. I hear one, but then I don't see anything that jives with it.

Illitches are happy as long as we continued to add a number to the playoff streak, and as long as 13 af 40 are on the roster that will happen. No matter how incompetent Holland has been the last 4-5 years.

I know what you mean, The Quincey panic signing and the Cleary signing has me shaking my head. Both bad signings. Bottom line we probably just squeak in again and then get eliminated in the 1st round. Seems to be a pattern there of making the playoffs but not advancing.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Add kids on the roster smoothly and let them learn from proven veterans good hockey habits. The Red Wings way.

Not the Edmonton Oilers way, where raw kids are promoted instantly in and they are learning bad hockey habits too young and too soon and are now overpaid and can't do anything to turn that franchise around. Some 1st rounders have already been traded away from there like case-Gagner.

I like our way.

Its not a black and white red wings or Oilers way. The wings way worked amazing pre cap ear where we could outspend other teams by tens of millions, post cap we had 3 top 10 players in the league and the best Dman. We dont have the $$$ or player advantage anymore

 

[InjuredChoker]

Its not a black and white red wings or Oilers way. The wings way worked amazing pre cap ear where we could outspend other teams by tens of millions, post cap we had 3 top 10 players in the league and the best Dman. We dont have the $$$ or player advantage anymore

yeah, there is the happy medium.


red wings are above average on drafting, i think and probably little better than that on developing. but their track record isn't that great since lockout. some players can develop bad habits if they play low comp too long. i guess that is what happened with kindl and smith but we never know. nyquist didn't break out until he got consistent time against NHLers.

 

[Crymson]

yeah, there is the happy medium.


red wings are above average on drafting, i think and probably little better than that on developing. but their track record isn't that great since lockout. some players can develop bad habits if they play low comp too long. i guess that is what happened with kindl and smith but we never know. nyquist didn't break out until he got consistent time against NHLers.

Kindl is garbage. He's perpetually lacking in confidence, makes thoroughly boneheaded decisions in the defensive zone, and is a coward where the physical side of the game is concerned; he doesn't use his size, and is never willing to take a hit to make a play. Smith has potential. He has 1.5 seasons under his belt, is steadily improving, and played fairly well on the top pairing for a time last season. Kindl is yet to play consistently well on the 3rd pairing. His days are numbered.

As for your talk of having development stunted by playing too long against lesser competition---no. Kindl struggled in the AHL. He was decent, but only decent, on offense; he never put up anywhere near Almquist's numbers, for example, and his performance was not particularly encouraging for a guy who was drafted on his offensive merit. His body of work on defense was generally poor. He was a brutal -34 in his first season, and he was a minus player for all three of his AHL campaigns. He got better over his time in the AHL, but not sufficiently so to justify his selection in the 1st round; indeed, he was virtually alone amongst his peers in not being called up for even a single NHL game during his time in the minors, even during the brutal spell of injuries to the defense in 2008. By the time his waiver exemption ran out, he was not yet fit for duty in the NHL. Worst of all, he has made practically no progress since coming into the league.

Smith played two seasons in the AHL. Though he did not, as was hoped, light up the league, he played very well, and was selected to the all-star game in his rookie season. Babcock judged him ready for the NHL in the 2011-2012 season and wanted him on the roster, but Holland (surprise, surprise!) elected to keep him in the minors. He spent 14 games in the NHL that season as an injury call-up, and did very well. During his rookie season, he made plenty of amateur mistakes, but even then he was clearly an NHL defenseman, and he has steadily improved since.

In other words, I don't think your theory holds any water. Kindl simply isn't a very good player, and he appears to have reached a plateau. Smith is a good player, and he's continuing to improve.

As for Nyquist, he got quite a bit of time in the NHL before last season; he played a total of 58 games over the 2011-2012 and 2013 seasons. He really hit his stride in the 2013 playoffs, and that was that. But he clearly wasn't ready in 2012.

 

[SirloinUB]

He finds out about guys like Brent Burns and James Wisniewski being available via trade when all of us find out. He doesn't seem to work the phones much to see what's available.

Do you have any evidence to support this or do you just make things up to suit your argument ?

The way I see things is that the wings have been linked to every impactful FA on the trade market. This suggest the exact opposite of what you suggested.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Do you have any evidence to support this or do you just make things up to suit your argument ?

The way I see things is that the wings have been linked to every impactful FA on the trade market. This suggest the exact opposite of what you suggested.

A lot of the time its because they're "kicking the tires" I think us having a big fan base inflates these #'s for page views

 

[InjuredChoker]

GR had crappy teams when kindl was there so it's no surprise that he didn't put up that big numbers. it's very much possible he wouldn't have turned out good anyway.

smith made lot of those amateur mistakes as he got away with them at lower levels, to some extent. so he never got out of them.. and is now learning it the hard way. he would have gotten better, sooner.

nyquist should've been up right from the start of 12-13 season.

i don't think it ruined smitty's or nyquist's development. delayed a bit.

 

[SirloinUB]

A lot of the time its because they're "kicking the tires" I think us having a big fan base inflates these #'s for page views

Well to "kick tires" you need to make calls, which was my contention towards HarnessedInSlums post.

He seems to believe that Holland found out about Burns being available by reading a hockey blog like us fans.

The fact that Holland has been tied to every impact-full trade target (whether he is tire kicking or in heavy negotiations) suggests that HarnessedInSlums assertion that "Holland doesn't work the phones" is unfounded and speculative at best (if not complete BS).

 

[Crymson]

GR had crappy teams when kindl was there so it's no surprise that he didn't put up that big numbers. it's very much possible he wouldn't have turned out good anyway.

Incorrect. With the exception of his final season, in which he was decent, Kindl was simply not very good. He was absolute jelly in the defensive zone in his first two seasons---in one of which the team around him was quite good---and not much better in the third. He was decent offensively. Decent. Smith scored at a faster clip in his rookie season, and played better defense, than Kindl had in any of his campaigns with the Griffins.

smith made lot of those amateur mistakes as he got away with them at lower levels, to some extent. so he never got out of them.. and is now learning it the hard way. he would have gotten better, sooner.

That's rather conjectural. I think it's more likely that, having little experience at the pro level, his mistakes would have been rather more pronounced, and he'd have ended up back in the AHL anyway. By your logic, all players should go directly to the NHL, or spend perhaps only a year in the AHL. That logic does not hold with the facts.

nyquist should've been up right from the start of 12-13 season.

Maybe, maybe not. He had only six points in 22 games in 2013, whereas he began scoring at a good clip immediately upon entering the NHL last season.

 

[Henkka]

GR had crappy teams when kindl was there so it's no surprise that he didn't put up that big numbers. it's very much possible he wouldn't have turned out good anyway.

Too many seasons with Curt Fraser. You got Kindl, Mursak, Emmerton when Fraser was "developing" our kids. Looks like Kindl is the "diamond" from that group of bad coaching. Thank god we have now Blashill.

 

[InjuredChoker]

That's rather conjectural. I think it's more likely that, having little experience at the pro level, his mistakes would have been rather more pronounced, and he'd have ended up back in the AHL anyway. By your logic, all players should go directly to the NHL, or spend perhaps only a year in the AHL. That logic does not hold with the facts.

i don't get where you got that is my logic. i very much prefer playing it safe.

if he would've made big mistakes and looked like he needs more time in AHL, sure send him down.

i can't even recall last time red wings had a player that i wanted to spend only one year in AHL and then start the following year on red wings. might have been filppula and he's different as he had played so much against man in europe. smitty, in hindsight.

i was 50-50 on smith being sent down to start the year in 11-12 iirc.. i was fine with him going down but i think he should've been kept up after his callup. it was little different back then as i agreed with or was fine with almost every decision they made..

Maybe, maybe not. He had only six points in 22 games in 2013, whereas he began scoring at a good clip immediately upon entering the NHL last season.

did he score at that good clip because he played that time in GR or because he had finally gotten consistent time against NHLers to figure it out?

i remember him playing better than his point totals tell and i think he didn't get much ice time either. until the season got near the end and he was put on that line with andy and brunner. and then he really took the next step in playoffs.



and i agree with henkka that fraser wasn't the best for those kids. though blash got more talent to work with so it may not be fair for fraser.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Helene St. James ‏@HeleneStJames 1 t
#RedWings looking for new assistant coach (to replace Tom Renney) & video coach, as Keith McKittrick leaving for job with WHL's Portland.

didn't see this posted. lot of people have been leaving the past year or so.

 

[Frk It]

did he score at that good clip because he played that time in GR or because he had finally gotten consistent time against NHLers to figure it out?

i remember him playing better than his point totals tell and i think he didn't get much ice time either. until the season got near the end and he was put on that line with andy and brunner. and then he really took the next step in playoffs.
.

I'll take the latter, for a million dollars please,

Also I agree with everything you said below that.

 

[dtones520]

Because he said he didn't want to be part of a rebuild, and they want players that want to be there.

You can keep bringing up this last off season and Pittsburgh, but we should have signed him in 2011, right after Rafalski had just retired.

He didn't get bought out because his contract was "awful", because his contract was not awful. We would have had a very good PMD locked in at an absolute steal for years, and then worse comes to worse LTIR him in his late 30s. And Ehrhoff at 38-39 is probably better than giving 4.25 to Quincey anyways at ages 28-29.

So, you have no problem locking a guy up until he is 40 with no idea how he is going to play 7, 8, 9, 10 years into the deal, but do have a problem with us signing 38-40 year olds to low money, low risk contracts? Got it.

And just because he said he didn't want to be a part of a rebuild doesn't mean he wouldn't have had to honor his contract he signed. I get that Buffalo didn't want guys who didn't want to be a part of that, but who really wants to be a part of a rebuild. And if the contract was such a steal, then when would Buffalo want to give up a guy with a good contract when they hope to be good in 2-4 years from now? Why didn't they trade him for something instead of choosing to pay him to not play for him? If his contract was so great, some team could have gave up a draft pick or two for him and Buffalo wouldnt be on the hook for whatever they are on the hook for.

And I've said multiple times, we didn't sign him in 2011 because we didn't want to have two 10+ year contracts for defenseman in two offseasons. Our primary focus was signing Suter in 2012. Ehrhoff wanted a super long term deal and got it in Buffalo.

 

[Frk It]

So, you have no problem locking a guy up until he is 40 with no idea how he is going to play 7, 8, 9, 10 years into the deal,.

A deal that is an absolute bargain over the majority of the contract, is worth it. Ages 29-37 are likely to not be an issue at all. Ages 38, 39 may be a concern... But the cap will go up, and right now we are paying 4.25 million to Quincey who sucks. Ehrhoff probably won't even regress to a point where he is worse than what Quincey is now, and if he does we could have just LTIR'd him. Paying 4.0 million to Ehrhoff in 2021 probably isn't even as dumb as paying more money to Quincey with a lower cap. And you get 7-8 years of really good play to make up for it, in a window where we still have D + Z.

but do have a problem with us signing 38-40 year olds to low money, low risk contracts? Got it.

Where did I say that?

And just because he said he didn't want to be a part of a rebuild doesn't mean he wouldn't have had to honor his contract he signed. I get that Buffalo didn't want guys who didn't want to be a part of that, but who really wants to be a part of a rebuild. .

Their GM made it clear they only want guys who are onboard, I can understand why it would make sense for both sides to go different ways.

And if the contract was such a steal, then when would Buffalo want to give up a guy with a good contract when they hope to be good in 2-4 years from now? Why didn't they trade him for something instead of choosing to pay him to not play for him?

Recapture penalty

If his contract was so great, some team could have gave up a draft pick or two for him and Buffalo wouldnt be on the hook for whatever they are on the hook for..

They used a compliance buyout, they are on the hook for nothing.

Our primary focus was signing Suter in 2012. Ehrhoff wanted a super long term deal and got it in Buffalo.

Signing Ehrhoff in 2011 would not have prevented us being able to sign Suter at all. In any way. We would have had plenty of cap space to have both. Having both of them would make the biggest weakness of this team right now a big strength.

 

[dtones520]

Well to "kick tires" you need to make calls, which was my contention towards HarnessedInSlums post.

He seems to believe that Holland found out about Burns being available by reading a hockey blog like us fans.

The fact that Holland has been tied to every impact-full trade target (whether he is tire kicking or in heavy negotiations) suggests that HarnessedInSlums assertion that "Holland doesn't work the phones" is unfounded and speculative at best (if not complete BS).

If Holland wasn't doing anything and wasn't kicking tires someone in ownership would know. The fact that ownership is 100% behind Holland and what he is doing speaks to the fact that he isn't doing what most people on here assume and pretend he is doing. Has he been perfect? Not at all, but I still have yet to get a specific answer from the people constantly bashing him as to what more they wanted him to do other than not signing guys like Cleary, Samuelsson and Bertuzzi to their contracts, which had no impact on us signing and playing guys who would have actually made us more of a contender, and signing Ehrhoff to a deal he was just bought out of.

If Holland was more aggressive, like they are constantly harping for him to be, we would have Ehrhoff for 7 more seasons, we would have Jay Bouwmeester and we wouldn't have Nyquist, Tatar, Mantha (as we would have had to give up our 2013 1st) and likely a few other players that we would have been trading at the deadline to try and improve now. So, we would have no future and a team that may be a contender until Datsyuk retires and Zetterberg declines, then what? We just traded away our top prospects, and likely would have been trading away more as we made more cup pushes to get proven veterans and rental players.

Instead Holland realized the reality of the NHL now and that Detroit was going to have to rebuild at some point and drew a line in the sand on trades and signings. He wasn't willing to give up our first round picks and he wasn't going to give 10 year contracts to guys who aren't superstars like Suter. And in doing so he has effectively kept all of our top prospects, who are all NHL ready and have proven they can play in the NHL, he has assets to trade that are NHL ready if we are in the hunt come the deadline and we are cap friendly going forward if those young players can prove they are the future of Detroit. Right now, we aren't a hot UFA destination because there is still some uncertainty that those young guys are the real deal, but if they prove they are guys will sign here again.

What I don't get is why do these people who constantly bash Holland and everything he does even continue to watch and support the Wings. This is clearly our organizational model and it has been for over a decade, ownership vocally supports the model and things our GM is doing a good job, but yet they continue to watch. If you don't like it, then stop watching, find a team that follows the business model you prefer. But it's more likely that once that team starts to have a rough couple of years they will just think everyone in that organization is terrible and everything the GM does is awful.