Is it time for another top 100 or so project?

buffalowing88

Registered User
Aug 11, 2008
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Just tossing in my 2 cents again.

Of the concepts that have been tabled so far, I strongly prefer the pre-consolidation idea.

I agree with @BenchBrawl that we would be far better equipped for a top-X project if we first create a repository of information about each season. This would have a similar impact to the early suggestions about a "best players of each season" or "best by birth year" type of project. My concern is that if we don't do something like that, participation in the top-X list will dwindle to a literal handful by the end. Even submitting a preliminary list would be a high initial bar for most of us to clear, let alone laying out detailed arguments in the 10th round of the project.

On a related note, I agree with @TheDevilMadeMe that we may be biting off more than we can chew if we go to 100 names. Personally I'd love to see a 100-name list and would be willing to commit to that, but I question how many people are actually going to lay out detailed arguments for Pud Glass vs Frank Rankin when we're in Week 20. I think 50 sounds like a more reasonable scale for the list. And I say that with the understanding that we could be talking about multiple months of preliminary research before we even start the list portion of the project.

Great points. 50 seems realistic. After than we REALLY start getting into futile arguments about leagues at the time and what not. I can do 50. I cannot do 100. But I'm on board and have some real hot takes when it comes to Cyclone that I want to explore haha.
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
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ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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It's a shame their isn't a book like Empire of Ice which gives good cited year over year breakdowns for the PCHA for the NHA besides Trail

Obviously will require more work, I've slowly started building up a folder of PCHA game descriptions from sources I still have access but it's been slow going.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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Why not 100?

Any player who played more than half his career or half his significant seasons pre-1926 would be eligible, but we'd count their whole careers.

There are definitely 100 worth talking about:

FrankNighbor
SpragueCleghorn
CycloneTaylor
NewsyLalonde
CyDenneny
EddieGerard
JoeMalone
TommyPhillips
HodStuart
Ernie "Moose"Johnson
DidierPitre
GeorgesVezina
GeorgesBoucher
ClintBenedict
HarryCameron
LesterPatrick
FrankFoyston
RegNoble
HarveyPulford
ArtRoss
BabeDye
PunchBroadbent
MickeyMacKay
JackWalker
MikeGrant
HughLehman
AlfSmith
ArtDuncan
DukeKeats
GordRoberts
RussellBowie
BernieMorris
JoeHall
GrahamDrinkwater
SmokeyHarris
Harry P.Watson
FrankMcGee
EddieOatman
TommySmith
RustyCrawford
BertCorbeau
MartyWalsh
LloydCook
GeorgeHainsworth
SiGriffis
OdieCleghorn
BlairRussell
TommyDunderdale
BobbyRowe
JackMarshall
BruceStuart
HapHolmes
KenRandall
PercyLesueur
AlfSkinner
CullyWilson
HambyShore
DanBain
JackAdams
ErnieRussell
JackDarragh
HarrySmith
PudGlass
HarryHyland
DubbieKerr
HarryWestwick
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Billy Boucher
Carson Cooper
Dick Irvin
Corb Denneny
Leo Reise
Herb Jordan
Paddy Moran
Allan Cameron
Walter Smaill
Billy McGimsie
Gord Fraser
Harry Trihey
Art Gagne
Allan Davidson

Harry Mummery
Howard McNamara
George McNamara
Fred Scanlan
Louis Berlinguette
Billy Coutu
Moose Goheen
Billy Gilmour
Dickie Boon
Hobey Baker

Tom Paton
John Hutton
Phat Wilson
Slim Halderson
Weldy Young
Clarence McKerrow
Haviland Routh
Frank Rankin
Jack Ruttan
Steamer Maxwell

Art Hooper
George Richardson
Tom Hooper
Jimmy Gardner
Bob McDougall
Dolly Swift
Atty Howard
Bob Trapp
Percy Traub
Art Farrell

Skene Ronan
Billy Nicholson
Jack Marks
Ran McDonald
Don Smith
Fred Whitcroft
Billy Breen
Charlie Tobin
Art Moore
Jim Riley

there's a preliminary top-120 list right there. Aside from the commonly-known guys, it includes just about every player who is in the HHOF, who had a profile in The Trail, was worthy of mention in Iain Fyffe's hockeyhistorysis blog, or made a postseason all-star team in the western leagues prior to consolidation. There are not 20 guys there that I'd like to see miss a top-100 list, to be honest. But a few will.

edit: Forgot shoo-ins Barney Stanley, Fred Lake, Goldie Prodger, Clem Loughlin, so this list just got even harder to make.

Frank Fredrickson.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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Some people here are overstating the inaccessibility of information. As TDMM said most of these players got info on Wikipedia, there are also bios floating around on this site. Also there are posters here very well versed in it. Personally I almost feel a little overcooked on it, but that's just me.

If we only do a top 50 pre-con era list it will just be the same big names discussed again, who already got extensive bios and coverage. Top 100 then other players can get into the discussion as well, which should be a lot more interesting project wise.
 
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sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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Jack Ruttan
Steamer Maxwell

Ruttan & Maxwell both being inducted as players is curious because on a surface level they don't appear any more than some other players from the Winnipeg amateur league scene such as Guinea Bawlf, Les Moffat, Ollie Turnbull, Francis Caldwell, Bert Andrews, et cetera, or even Reg Hay. I don't know what to think about it.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
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We could always commit to a top 50 with an option to keep going if discussions and participation are still lively. Doesn't need to be written in stone.
 

buffalowing88

Registered User
Aug 11, 2008
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Charlotte, NC
Ruttan & Maxwell both being inducted as players is curious because on a surface level they don't appear any more than some other players from the Winnipeg amateur league scene such as Guinea Bawlf, Les Moffat, Ollie Turnbull, Francis Caldwell, Bert Andrews, et cetera, or even Reg Hay. I don't know what to think about it.

Yeah, this is what concerns me. I'm trying to read up on everything I can find pre-consolidated...but you just listed 3-4 names I haven't even heard of. I'm searching them all tonight, but there is just so much difference between the leagues at the time and the one we follow now. The disconnect is frustrating.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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Yeah, this is what concerns me. I'm trying to read up on everything I can find pre-consolidated...but you just listed 3-4 names I haven't even heard of. I'm searching them all tonight, but there is just so much difference between the leagues at the time and the one we follow now. The disconnect is frustrating.

You don't have to know those names because none of them would make the list or even a preliminary list anyways. What you need to know is players like Jack Walker and he's got a newly updated wiki page now with all kinds of meaty info ( :cool: ).

The 3 best from each decade project idea is a terrible suggestion because it's just the top 100 of all time all over again but only a bit more condensed.
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
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We could always commit to a top 50 with an option to keep going if discussions and participation are still lively. Doesn't need to be written in stone.

I think this is a good idea. Everyone still submits a list as though we are doing top 100, but we pause at the 50 mark to gauge interest/project feasibility. We can even build another break in at 75. Or every 10 picks (60/70/80/etc).

I do echo the thoughts that this may require some more research than other projects, so I propose that- if we do go forward with this project- we lengthen the Preliminary Discussion Thread time for a bit.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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A top-50 project would just recycle our previous project for a 4th time?! except it'll have new only: How high has Crosby and Ovechkin risen? Does Malkin make the top 50?

Pens and OV fans will be happy.

I'd pass.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
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I think this is a good idea. Everyone still submits a list as though we are doing top 100, but we pause at the 50 mark to gauge interest/project feasibility. We can even build another break in at 75. Or every 10 picks (60/70/80/etc).

I do echo the thoughts that this may require some more research than other projects, so I propose that- if we do go forward with this project- we lengthen the Preliminary Discussion Thread time for a bit.

The biggest barrier to entry is the initial listmaking process, so I don't know if there is a benefit to having posters make much longer lists than needed.
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
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The biggest barrier to entry is the initial listmaking process, so I don't know if there is a benefit to having posters make much longer lists than needed.
That is a good point. My quick reaction to that would be to plan for 50, and should we continue, there be a week or 2 week gap for people to submit their follow on list.
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
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Yeah, this is what concerns me. I'm trying to read up on everything I can find pre-consolidated...but you just listed 3-4 names I haven't even heard of. I'm searching them all tonight, but there is just so much difference between the leagues at the time and the one we follow now. The disconnect is frustrating.

Isn't that the whole point of a project like this is to do research and learn new things ? Also, what do you mean by disconnect, as there are people here to help out?
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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I still think it would be hella fun to do 101-200. It also might get new people interested in the ATD.
That would be awesome! :)

Marty Barry, Marian Hossa, Alex Maltsev, Brendan Shanahan, Bill Cowley, Mike Modano...

We have never worked on comparing such greats! It would be very interesting and fun.
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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A top-50 project would just recycle our previous project for a 4th time?! except it'll have new only: How high has Crosby and Ovechkin risen? Does Malkin make the top 50?

Pens and OV fans will be happy.

I'd pass.
It would be one thing if the participants of the board/project were significantly different - I'd be down for that if such a change took place. But I don't think it has. Probably years early for another top 100 project.

I don't mind the idea of a positional project though, simply because I think those could use a set of fresh eyes. ATD has some good research for a lot of players but the issue is those bios (and arguments) are made with stakes in them, so that limits their usefulness *somewhat*.
 

Professor What

Registered User
Sep 16, 2020
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Just a thought for the preconsolidation lists idea: Would it be helpful to start out with two lists, one NHA/PCHA origin-1926 and one pre NHA/PCHA? My thinking on that is that it might be a bit difficult to make comparisons between guys when one of them played in the semi-consolidated era of the NHA and PCHA and the other played when things were more scattered around and there were more leagues all over the map. This isn't to say that doing pre-1910 would be any easier, but once the two lists were done, you could take the guys from the pre-1910 list and say, "I think this guy fits in nicely between these two guys, because of XYZ." I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else, and I'm honestly not sure if I'm explaining myself well, but in my mind, it feels helpful.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
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I still think it would be hella fun to do 101-200. It also might get new people interested in the ATD.

The reason I'm leaning towards this option is because, if we're going to do a list of players 101-200, it makes sense to do it as close to the top 100 as possible. (Some time has already passed, obviously, but if the list serves as an extension of the previous one, it makes sense to do it now, rather than in two or five years, so it's closer to being a coherent overall list at a specific point in time).

I like both project ideas and would participate in either one. A top 50 pre-consolidation player list would probably be a more interesting & meaningful "legacy" project for HOH. But, if we're going to do both projects anyway, I think we should do the 101-200 player ranking first, as it's more time-sensitive.
 

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