Is it time for another top 100 or so project?

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,909
13,720
Top X greatest dynasties (including mini-dynasties) would be interesting; it would give us a chance to dive deeply into the inner working and role players of those teams. The final result is not that important.

I'd say we could restrict it to 5-6 years window and talk about this. We could even include non-dynasties like the early 1990s Penguins for example. An opportunity to follow a core throughout many years as opposed to focus on only one season.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,205
7,365
Regina, SK
In order of preference, from best to worst:

1.Best duos of All-Time
2.Best Single Seasons of All Time (is it restricted to one season per player?)
3.Best Teams of All-Time (is it restricted to one season?)
4.Best pre-consolidation players of all time (while my favorite in a vacuum, the amount of work required is off-putting)
5.Next best 100 players of all time (#101-200)

Very little interest in the rest

Best Players by Birth Year
HOH Hall of Fame / HOH Hall of Excellence
Most worthy future HHOF candidates
Best WHA Players of All-time
If I'm ranking:

1. Best pre consolidation
2. Next best 100
3. Best hhof omissions
4. HOH HOF
5. WHA, birth year, duos, teams, single seasons (all blah)
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
13,599
8,255
NYC
www.hockeyprospect.com
I'm pretty well onboard with what 70s said as well...

My lean towards best pre-consolidation is because I'm unconvinced we have, as a group, really tried to manifestly research the era (which I wouldn't hate if we pushed the date to 1950, which is when we start to get film regularly and when most sports really started to modernize)...and then research it to a common end...

We have some decent info (as I recall) in the pre-1950 goalie research thread, and that's about seven years old now I think...so, hopefully we can add to that...we have some ATD bios, which aren't "accessible" necessarily to everyone because they have a competitive slant to them...

Strictly pre-consolidation, there isn't gonna be much in the way of voting results and the scoring (defensive scoring, how assists are counted, etc.) isn't even super reliable (also, smaller sample sizes), so I'm not sure we've ever had to be pushed into actually consolidating our pre-consolidation data, peer-reviewing/evaluating it, and then making some inferences...

I don't want to speak for the lot of us either, but I imagine at least a few more of us are working from home these days...so that can be a little bit more free time to do this kind of work, and the more we can get involved, the more researchers we have out there - you never know what little piece of info we're going to find (like that thing TinyZombies found today, for instance...and that's from '38, and I had never seen it before)...

That wave of extra research in a time where we'll likely have some extra time (no NHL right now, not summer, more WFH, etc.) is better spent on our weakest point as opposed to finding where Victor Hedman lands in the next 100, how we all know we wouldn't include Joe Nieuwendyk and Kevin Lowe in our more select HOF, any arbitrary trivia stuff (best Thursday night players of the 1980's), or who the best players were in some fly-by-night glorified minor league when we saw the lot of them play in the NHL before and after anyhow...

The HHOF omissions one would only be amplified and aided by the a pre-consolidation/pre-1950 research project...
 
  • Like
Reactions: quoipourquoi

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,882
pittsgrove nj
I like this idea, but one concern is how we'd deal with McDavid (and perhaps someone like Kane) - that is, players who have already accomplished a lot, but are still building their legacies.

The other issue - I think a lot of the discussion would end up as a repeat of the top 100 where we've already ranked Crosby, Jagr, Ovechkin, Malkin, Kane, Chara, etc. Obviously most of those players are still active, so I'm not saying their rankings should be set it stone, but a lot of it might be repetitious.

Maybe the ranking would be more interesting (ie covering more new ground) if we limit it to retired players only? (Or perhaps we include active players who are 40+, so we can include Chara and Thornton, without there needing to be any projections?)

Didn't you know that McDavid is already an ATG after only 5 seasons in the league?;)
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,882
pittsgrove nj
So far, from skimming the thread, I see these as the ideas that have gotten anything more than the most passing of a mention:
  • HOH Hall of Fame / HOH Hall of Excellence
  • Best Teams of All-Time
  • Best Players by Birth Year
  • Best Single Seasons of All Time
  • Next best 100 players of all time (#101-200)
  • Best duos of All-Time
  • Best pre-consolidation players of all time
  • Most worthy future HHOF candidates
  • Best WHA Players of All-time
Did I miss any?

My preference would be.
1 Next best 100 players of all time (101-200)
2. Best pre-consolidation players
3. HOH HOF
4. Best HHOF omissions
5. The rest.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,847
29,427
I would love pre-consolidation, but I really think it's going to be *hard*. Also there's a *bit* of a question as to what about guys who played on both sides of it (as in would we be able to keep their NHL careers distinct from their pre-NHL exploits).

It would also probably do the most for increasing the collective knowledge of the board though, and that's a worthy goal.

I'd go 1. Next Best 100; 2. Best pre-consolidation, 3. HOH HOF (although I think the format of this matters *a lot* for it to be worthwhile - a bad format and it's worse than useless).

The rest.
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
13,599
8,255
NYC
www.hockeyprospect.com
I would love pre-consolidation, but I really think it's going to be *hard*. Also there's a *bit* of a question as to what about guys who played on both sides of it (as in would we be able to keep their NHL careers distinct from their pre-NHL exploits).

It would also probably do the most for increasing the collective knowledge of the board though, and that's a worthy goal.

I'd go 1. Next Best 100; 2. Best pre-consolidation, 3. HOH HOF (although I think the format of this matters *a lot* for it to be worthwhile - a bad format and it's worse than useless).

The rest.

We've never had much of an issue with that before I don't think, we can make a general guidance...my main issue with it is the accessibility and wild randominity of a prelim list...I don't know if I could make a top-10 pre-consolidation list with any assuredness...was my top 120 perfect? No. But was it reasonable in my own head? Yes. In a pinch, did it really cause players to come up for discussion in a disorderly way? No.

I know that Sidney Crosby was better then Zdeno Chara...I know that Martin Brodeur was better than, ya know, basically all of them...so that was "easy"...

I don't know that Percy LeSeuer (sp?) was better than Hugh Lehman and was worse than Art Ross or any of that...forgetting the numbers themselves, my #2 could be completely unranked on someone's list...I could have 13 of my top 20 not appear in anyone else's top 20, ya know? That's my only real concern...

I want this to collectively build our knowledge...to use an agile/scrum term, we might want to work this as a "spike" first and foremost, and a list secondarily, including the preliminary list...we might want to handle this (if it goes through) a little bit differently to make it more researcher friendly and less intimidating, for lack of a better term...the prelim list with even a few weeks of lead-up time might be too daunting and/or might cause us to just re-tread over already established knowledge...and I think the ultimate goal here is to expand our pre-War knowledge...

While I'm rambling, we might want to get creative about the lead-up...one idea that just popped into my home-happy-hour-has-started brain is we split into groups or individuals or whatever and we're responsible for finding information about a team or a city and do a run through of information we can unearth that way, present it that with no debate, and then form prelim lists, then carry on as usual...

So, let's say we get something larger than Kenora here, let's say TDMM, benchbrawl, and I get Ottawa...we scour whatever Ottawa resources we can find, dig up quotes, stats, etc. and at the first intermission we present our findings for the group...maybe 70s, tinyzombies, boxscore have non-Canadiens Montreal teams and they present what they found on players into the same thread at the same time...et cetera...and then we go, "ok, three weeks from now, let's put together a prelim list of 50..." and we administer it as normal from there, though, maybe even at a slightly slower pace as to allow for more research - as there's no video to watch here...

I don't know just throwing it out there...
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,127
Hockeytown, MI
I’ll still want 1-220 lists if we’re committing to this. Not only so the people who have McDavid around #51 and Norm Ullman around #101 can spot McDavid a 50-point edge that they believe to exist, but also so I can build the HOH Repository.

I multitask.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,982
Brooklyn
I’ll still want 1-220 lists if we’re committing to this. Not only so the people who have McDavid around #51 and Norm Ullman around #101 can spot McDavid a 50-point edge that they believe to exist, but also so I can build the HOH Repository.

I multitask.

You really want to force everyone to take the time to put down 220 names for a list that ends up at 100? That's not going to be easy for everyone, and it's going to result in mistakes and unintentional omissions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Macho King

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,686
2,173
Put me down for

1) Pre-Consolidation
2) 101-200
3) Meh, none of the suggested options so far really grab me.

I do like what @Mike Farkas is saying- I think preliminary research, even before the preliminary lists, will be what determines if the project (should it be chosen this year) is a success or a mess. If we can split the research load among multiple people/teams (ideally, people would say how much time/effort they are willing to devote to the work- we all have different schedules and outside responsibilities, so no one should be asked to do more than they are willing to do... and no one should feel bad for being unable to do more), then it becomes much more manageable, organized, and more likely to result in positive results.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,982
Brooklyn
Re: Preliminary research - before the HOH Top Goalies project, we had a "goalies before 1950 research thread" that was open a month or two for anyone to contribute. It was partly a dump for ATD profiles, but a few of us did original research, as well. I thought it worked pretty well. We only did it for the goalies project, because we felt that early goaltenders were harder to pin down than the other positions.

But for a list focusing exclusively on pre-consolidation players, such a thread would be useful.
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
13,599
8,255
NYC
www.hockeyprospect.com
I recall that and I believe I picked up on a rather light ATD bio'd man but the all time leader in GAA (which I thought was interesting) in Alec Connell...turned out there wasn't a lot there relative to his stats...I didn't recall that it pre-dated the whole shebang-a-bang, but that's a good idea...glad I you thought of it...
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,882
pittsgrove nj
You really want to force everyone to take the time to put down 220 names for a list that ends up at 100? That's not going to be easy for everyone, and it's going to result in mistakes and unintentional omissions.

You could simply go from your list in 2018 and go from there.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,127
Hockeytown, MI
I think there would be a greater chance of unintentional omission if someone is having to cross-reference a list to know which 100 players are disqualified. On top of it generating what would be an aggregate list that is less reflective of how the voters actually feel.

Consider the real example of Erik Karlsson coming in at #60 and Jarome Iginla coming in at #101 on a Round 1 ballot from the previous project. That’s a 41-point difference on the previous aggregate list that would be cut down to a 9-point difference on the next list, because that voter had just 8 unranked players between them.

I don’t know that I’m expecting us to have the level of consensus on a 101-200 list that we had on the 1-100 list (with 66 players appearing on all 32 Round 1 ballots), so I think we’ll want voters who feel strongly about players who didn’t make the top-100 to be able to submit a list that accurately captures how they feel about those players.
 

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
22,502
15,330
I'll admit I 'cheated' a lot to come up with my list of top 120. I used the all-time lists that had been done on here before, both for positions, playoffs and Europeans to help me come up with 120 names in order. I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as others to do it off the top of my head.

When we go from 100 to 220.....it becomes harder. There aren't enough names populated in most lists to be all that helpful. So I'm sure I can come up with a list of 101 to 220 (or top 1-220 if we do that) - but there'll be some extremely glaring omissions or bad rankings I'm certain on my end, especially towards the bottom half.

Would there be anyway to help others come up with their own top 220 list? Would a preliminary thread be used to discuss specific names and give a lot of suggestions/discussions as who likely fits where? I think that would be very helpful for me, moreso than last time.

Regarding pre-consolidation - if you guys go that route, i'll read and follow with lots of interest, but it's way too tall a task for me, and I wouldn't participate.
I'd still love to do best single seasons - but judging by last few posts it doesn't seem to be the topic of most interest.
 

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
22,502
15,330
Just one more comment on 101-200 list. It sounds great in practice - but for the process we have to keep in mind how insanely difficult it will be.

Doing 1-100....ranking the top 4 was easy. The top 20, also. Even the top 50. It's all names we see all the time. Sakic or Yzerman or Bossy? Easy to compare. By the time we were getting closer to ~90 and in the last thread to rank 100th - there were so many names available and there was so much disagreements among all participants about who should be higher or lower. It just gets exponentially more difficult the lower we go.
 

Sanf

Registered User
Sep 8, 2012
1,975
923
Best pre consolidation is probably only one where I would have something significant to give. Don´t know if I could find the time to be voter, but atleast researcher (and I do have quite a lot ready also).
 

Professor What

Registered User
Sep 16, 2020
2,339
1,985
Gallifrey
I'm not saying that I wouldn't participate in a 101-200 list, but if we did that, a 1-220 list would be really tough for someone like me because of a really bad tendency to question myself in an overly excessive bid for perfection.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad