VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sounds good.
But if Marty Barry and Alex Maltsev fail to make the cut, I'll hold a grudge.
Is it time for another top 100 or so project?
- Thread starter ted2019
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But if Marty Barry and Alex Maltsev fail to make the cut, I'll hold a grudge.
BenchBrawl
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TheDevilMadeMe
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BenchBrawl
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I'm all for it, but lines might be complicated because of irregular 3rd wheelers, hence my suggestion of duos which would include both forward and defense pairings. But I'm down with both.
If we do this, I'd be more inclined to do Top 40 defense pairings, Top 30 lines, since lines are tougher to figure out.
BenchBrawl
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And if we do duos of both defense pairings and forwards, we could go to Top 60 easily.
Also have to decide how to deal with weird duos like Espo-Orr, who are not traditional yet still seen as such. Gretzky-Coffey is like that to some extent, with the difference that Gretzky already is part of another duo with Kurri (who might take the #1 spot). Not sure any other D-C combo are seen as a duo like Espo-Orr. I can't think of one on top of my head.
Also have to decide how to deal with weird duos like Espo-Orr, who are not traditional yet still seen as such. Gretzky-Coffey is like that to some extent, with the difference that Gretzky already is part of another duo with Kurri (who might take the #1 spot). Not sure any other D-C combo are seen as a duo like Espo-Orr. I can't think of one on top of my head.
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Id be 100% on board for this but i feel like we'd have to expand the parameters somehow for voting.
I think we had 10 players per round for top 100 and it's fine for early positions. But as we got towards end i feel like there should be closer to 20+ players eligible per spot. The gap is smaller, so have to somehow keep it representative. I think we had ~20 names up for the 100th spot.
Duos, defense pairings or lines....is a bit complicated because of length.
Is Crosby/Malkin a duo, on different lines? Does F + D count as a duo - and if so Lemieux/Coffey should rank super high for 'peak' but were only on same team for like 2 seasons - compared to Crosby/Letang for 15 - does 15 yrs trump 2 better years?
Its interresting i just think there'd be a ton of parameters to set ahead of time
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
I think the one issue there is that polarizing players who some people might have had mid-range on their #1-120 lists but weren’t named to the final top-100 list will have depressed voting totals on the next aggregate list, because the people who think very highly of them cannot properly distinguish them from someone they feel to be 101-105 range.
As an example, if someone believed Roberto Luongo to be the ~70th best player of all-time (and that the original list which didn’t contain a single goaltender drafted after 1990 is a noticeable blind spot) submitting a list of #101 Roberto Luongo, #102 Toe Blake wouldn’t necessarily reflect the 30-spot gap from the #1-120 list.
The way around this, of course, would be to do a #1-220 aggregate list (and then taking the previously unranked players into Round 2), because that would capture such nuances, but would that be asking too much of people?
ted2019
History of Hockey
BenchBrawl
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Crosby and Malkin are not a duo IMO. Same for Béliveau/H.Richard, Sakic/Forsberg, Yzerman/Fedorov, Kennedy/Apps, etc. Sure at the team level they were a duo, but I rather we be more specific and only include duos that actually played together.
As for F/D combos, I think we need to include Espo-Orr, but I don't know that any other such duo would/should make the Top 40, except perhaps Gretzky-Coffey. But like, I literally have never heard anyone say Crosby-Letang was a duo. It doesn't feel like a duo at all. Espo-Orr feels unique in that regard.
I agree we should set the parameters clearly before doing such a project.
BenchBrawl
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Some great duos on top of my head, just to give a taste. Feel free to call me out on "fake" duos or add any omission (of which there are plenty).
Forwards
Lalonde-Pitre
Joliat-Morenz
F.Boucher-Cook
Gretzky-Kurri
Messier-Anderson
(Shutt-Lemaire)-Lafleur
(Gillies)-Trottier-Bossy
Getzlaf-Perry
Denneny-Nighbor
Lindsay-(Abel/Delvecchio/Ullman)-Howe
(Olmstead)-Béliveau-Geoffrion
(Blake)-Lach-M.Richard
Martin-Perreault(-Robert)
Marchand-Bergeron-(Pastrnak)
Lehtinen-Modano-(Hull)
Stewart-H.Smith
Bentley-Bentley
Jackson-(Primeau)-Conacher
Oates-Hull
LeClair-Lindros-(Renberg)
Barber-Clarke-(Leach)
Ovechkin-Backstrom
(Dumart)-Schmidt-Bauer
Moore-H.Richard-(M.Richard)
Krutov-(Larionov)-Makarov
Kharlamov-(Petrov)-Mikhailov
Kariya-(Rucchin)-Selanne
Stamkos-St. Louis
Goulet-Stastny
Conacher-Cowley
Heatley-Spezza-Alfredsson
Sedin-Sedin
Savard-Larmer
Lewis-Barry-Aurie
Defense
Robinson-Savard
Duncan-L.Cook
Hitchman-Shore
Suter-Weber
Clapper-Crawford
Stanley-Horton
Brewer-Baun
Mortson-Thomson
Cleghorn-Gerard
Boucher-Gerard
Harvey-Bouchard
Fetisov-Kasatanov
Lapointe-Savard
Vasko-Pilote
Pospisil-Suchy
Hybrid
Orr-Esposito
Gretzky-Coffey
Lemieux-Coffey
Plante-Harvey ? *
Brodeur-Stevens ? *
* A long shot to include goalie-defenseman duos, but I might do it for goalies known to be good stickhandler and communicator. Brodeur-Stevens does feel like a duo, but I'm fine with excluding them.
Forwards
Lalonde-Pitre
Joliat-Morenz
F.Boucher-Cook
Gretzky-Kurri
Messier-Anderson
(Shutt-Lemaire)-Lafleur
(Gillies)-Trottier-Bossy
Getzlaf-Perry
Denneny-Nighbor
Lindsay-(Abel/Delvecchio/Ullman)-Howe
(Olmstead)-Béliveau-Geoffrion
(Blake)-Lach-M.Richard
Martin-Perreault(-Robert)
Marchand-Bergeron-(Pastrnak)
Lehtinen-Modano-(Hull)
Stewart-H.Smith
Bentley-Bentley
Jackson-(Primeau)-Conacher
Oates-Hull
LeClair-Lindros-(Renberg)
Barber-Clarke-(Leach)
Ovechkin-Backstrom
(Dumart)-Schmidt-Bauer
Moore-H.Richard-(M.Richard)
Krutov-(Larionov)-Makarov
Kharlamov-(Petrov)-Mikhailov
Kariya-(Rucchin)-Selanne
Stamkos-St. Louis
Goulet-Stastny
Conacher-Cowley
Heatley-Spezza-Alfredsson
Sedin-Sedin
Savard-Larmer
Lewis-Barry-Aurie
Defense
Robinson-Savard
Duncan-L.Cook
Hitchman-Shore
Suter-Weber
Clapper-Crawford
Stanley-Horton
Brewer-Baun
Mortson-Thomson
Cleghorn-Gerard
Boucher-Gerard
Harvey-Bouchard
Fetisov-Kasatanov
Lapointe-Savard
Vasko-Pilote
Pospisil-Suchy
Hybrid
Orr-Esposito
Gretzky-Coffey
Lemieux-Coffey
Plante-Harvey ? *
Brodeur-Stevens ? *
* A long shot to include goalie-defenseman duos, but I might do it for goalies known to be good stickhandler and communicator. Brodeur-Stevens does feel like a duo, but I'm fine with excluding them.
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I appreciate your effort in coming up with a pretty detailed sample list - but I still think it's impossible to define "duos" because the term is so subjective. The first 3 "duos" I think of are probably Sakic/Forsberg, Crosby/Malkin and Espo/Orr - and by your definition 2 are disqualified and 1 you're almost making an exception to include. This is too subjective imo
BenchBrawl
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Sure but what is the cutoff in % of play together.
It is not like some of the guys mentioned above did not play together.
The real difference is data and historical differences and the information we have across time as being very uneven.
This would be extremely subjective even more so than most discussions.
Kyle McMahon
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Is there any appetite for a top 40/50/whatever pre-consolidation (1926) players list? After the top 10 or so it would mainly be players who are seldom discussed. And with most of those players there isn't a whole lot of strong pre-existing opinions on where they should rank, at least compared to guys normally discussed in the overall top 100 projects.
Beau Knows
Registered User
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
Even if we just made this a top-10 over the course of a month or so, it would be a lot of fun.
I didn't think Goulet and Stastny played together that much; Hunter was usually Goulet's C.
VMBM
And it didn't even bring me down
Top-? forward lines sounds the most interesting to me... or duos. But I think 'duos' can be slightly problematic too. I'll take an example from the Soviets; while Valeri Kharlamov and Boris Mikhailov were both undoubtedly greater players than their center Petrov, I still think that Mikhailov and Petrov were better as a duo than Kharlamov with Mikhailov (or Petrov)... If that makes sense.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Why not 100?
Any player who played more than half his career or half his significant seasons pre-1926 would be eligible, but we'd count their whole careers.
There are definitely 100 worth talking about:
| Frank | Nighbor |
| Sprague | Cleghorn |
| Cyclone | Taylor |
| Newsy | Lalonde |
| Cy | Denneny |
| Eddie | Gerard |
| Joe | Malone |
| Tommy | Phillips |
| Hod | Stuart |
| Ernie "Moose" | Johnson |
| Didier | Pitre |
| Georges | Vezina |
| Georges | Boucher |
| Clint | Benedict |
| Harry | Cameron |
| Lester | Patrick |
| Frank | Foyston |
| Reg | Noble |
| Harvey | Pulford |
| Art | Ross |
| Babe | Dye |
| Punch | Broadbent |
| Mickey | MacKay |
| Jack | Walker |
| Mike | Grant |
| Hugh | Lehman |
| Alf | Smith |
| Art | Duncan |
| Duke | Keats |
| Gord | Roberts |
| Russell | Bowie |
| Bernie | Morris |
| Joe | Hall |
| Graham | Drinkwater |
| Smokey | Harris |
| Harry P. | Watson |
| Frank | McGee |
| Eddie | Oatman |
| Tommy | Smith |
| Rusty | Crawford |
| Bert | Corbeau |
| Marty | Walsh |
| Lloyd | Cook |
| George | Hainsworth |
| Si | Griffis |
| Odie | Cleghorn |
| Blair | Russell |
| Tommy | Dunderdale |
| Bobby | Rowe |
| Jack | Marshall |
| Bruce | Stuart |
| Hap | Holmes |
| Ken | Randall |
| Percy | Lesueur |
| Alf | Skinner |
| Cully | Wilson |
| Hamby | Shore |
| Dan | Bain |
| Jack | Adams |
| Ernie | Russell |
| Jack | Darragh |
| Harry | Smith |
| Pud | Glass |
| Harry | Hyland |
| Dubbie | Kerr |
| Harry | Westwick |
Carson Cooper
Dick Irvin
Corb Denneny
Leo Reise
Herb Jordan
Paddy Moran
Allan Cameron
Walter Smaill
Billy McGimsie
Gord Fraser
Harry Trihey
Art Gagne
Allan Davidson
Harry Mummery
Howard McNamara
George McNamara
Fred Scanlan
Louis Berlinguette
Billy Coutu
Moose Goheen
Billy Gilmour
Dickie Boon
Hobey Baker
Tom Paton
John Hutton
Phat Wilson
Slim Halderson
Weldy Young
Clarence McKerrow
Haviland Routh
Frank Rankin
Jack Ruttan
Steamer Maxwell
Art Hooper
George Richardson
Tom Hooper
Jimmy Gardner
Bob McDougall
Dolly Swift
Atty Howard
Bob Trapp
Percy Traub
Art Farrell
Skene Ronan
Billy Nicholson
Jack Marks
Ran McDonald
Don Smith
Fred Whitcroft
Billy Breen
Charlie Tobin
Art Moore
Jim Riley
there's a preliminary top-120 list right there. Aside from the commonly-known guys, it includes just about every player who is in the HHOF, who had a profile in The Trail, was worthy of mention in Iain Fyffe's hockeyhistorysis blog, or made a postseason all-star team in the western leagues prior to consolidation. There are not 20 guys there that I'd like to see miss a top-100 list, to be honest. But a few will.
edit: Forgot shoo-ins Barney Stanley, Fred Lake, Goldie Prodger, Clem Loughlin, so this list just got even harder to make.
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ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
buffalowing88
Registered User
OMG yes. I'm going to begin preparing my case for Mike Ryan of the 2010 Buffalo Sabres this instant, with Marty St. Louis in for a close second.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Top pre-consolidation players of all-time is an interesting idea if we can get enough participants. The problem with doing a full top 100 is that as the complexity and time commitment of the project goes up, the participation goes down. So I'd lean towards making it a top 50, like the non-NHL Euros project.
It is one of my favorite 3 ideas in this thread, along with the next best 100 players of all time (or 101st to 175th or whatever) and the HOH HHOF.
It is one of my favorite 3 ideas in this thread, along with the next best 100 players of all time (or 101st to 175th or whatever) and the HOH HHOF.
Count me in for a pre-consolidation list; that is a period of hockey I have been meaning to focus more attention on, but I keep putting it off.
