Is Gretzky 1983-84 (during the 51-game point streak) the highest level any player will ever achieve?

[tony d]

I think it is. Lemieux did come close in 1992-1993 but 153 points in 51 games is 3 ppg. That's otherworldly.

 

[bobholly39]

To answer the OP's question - it's one of Gretzky's, Orr's or Lemieux's best stretches. No one matched those 3 at their best.

Gretzky's 51 game is certainly a worthy contender for #1. I expect both Lemieux and Orr have similar stretches that could be worthy of consideration too.

In terms of simple statistical domination, it's hard to compare Gretzky to Lemieux in their respective best years (be it 93, or 89 for Lemieux) because the league scoring rates were different.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

As for the talent surge of "fast skaters," why were there so many older skaters surviving into 1992-93? More 35 year olds, more 33 year olds, more 30 year olds. The 1984 guys seemed to survive better into 1993 than the 1975 guys did into 1984. If there was a surge of talented young legs displacing older players, it came closer to 1984 than 1993.

Short shift game evolved due to NHL rules expanding the number of skaters on a roster, allowing coaches like Mike Keenan to win (briefly anyways) just by rolling 4 lines at the highest intensity the players could handle. Many 1975 stars, most notably Lafleur and Sittler, went off a cliff once this change arrived, effectively speeding up the league by another 25-50% right when their legs started to slow down due to age.

The 1984 stars meanwhile, were accustomed to the increased pace of the league, which I would argue didnt change in terms of raw speed after 1985ish for another 20 years (debatably even slowed down for a bit 1997-2001). Meanwhile those same 1984 stars benefitted more from modern sports conditioning and medicine extending their effective career lengths, at least until the next speed increase in 2005 blew them all away

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Just watching a game from 84 and 93 the difference is extremely evident. I’m sure I don’t have to bring up Gretzky in his late 20’s and already unable to put up 65 goal seasons

 

[McFlash97]

To answer the OP's question - it's one of Gretzky's, Orr's or Lemieux's best stretches. No one matched those 3 at their best.

Gretzky's 51 game is certainly a worthy contender for #1. I expect both Lemieux and Orr have similar stretches that could be worthy of consideration too.

In terms of simple statistical domination, it's hard to compare Gretzky to Lemieux in their respective best years (be it 93, or 89 for Lemieux) because the league scoring rates were different.

153 in 51 is not a contender its the clear cut winner.

no player in history can claim this type of dominance through a 51 game stretch. Lemieux gave it his best and failed.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

M

153 in 51 is not a contender its the clear cut winner.

no player in history can claim this type of dominance through a 51 game stretch. Lemieux gave it his best and failed.

mcdavid has tried his best so far to reach the level of Kucherovs 128 points but has failed.

 

[Boxscore]

See Lemieux 92-93

This.

I think Mario Lemieux's 1992-93 season was the single greatest achievement in professional sports history. Even more than Chamberlain scoring 100 points in an NBA game.

While the numbers alone are eye-popping, consider Mario accomplished this feat while feeling extremely fatigued--then being treated for cancer--then battling back after his final treatment to put the NHL through a shredder and winning the scoring crown.

The physical and emotional greatness needed to accomplish what Mario did was unmatched in sports history. Toyed with the best sports league on the planet while fighting cancer. Stop it.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

This.

I think Mario Lemieux's 1992-93 season was the single greatest achievement in professional sports history. Even more than Chamberlain scoring 100 points in an NBA game.

While the numbers alone are eye-popping, consider Mario accomplished this feat while feeling extremely fatigued--then being treated for cancer--then battling back after his final treatment to put the NHL through a shredder and winning the scoring crown.

The physical and emotional greatness needed to accomplish what Mario did was unmatched in sports history. Toyed with the best sports league on the planet while fighting cancer. Stop it.

Guy scored 5 goals and then 4 games. 9 goals in 2 games lol. 56 points in 20 games jheeez

 

[The Panther]

This.

I think Mario Lemieux's 1992-93 season was the single greatest achievement in professional sports history. Even more than Chamberlain scoring 100 points in an NBA game.

While the numbers alone are eye-popping, consider Mario accomplished this feat while feeling extremely fatigued--then being treated for cancer--then battling back after his final treatment to put the NHL through a shredder and winning the scoring crown.

The physical and emotional greatness needed to accomplish what Mario did was unmatched in sports history. Toyed with the best sports league on the planet while fighting cancer. Stop it.

I can't see any argument for this... at all.

The "greatest achievement in professional sports history" is not when you miss 1/4 of the games and then your team is upset in the playoffs.

 

[MadLuke]

I don't think we've ever seen that level of play or that level of dominance from any athlete in any major North American sport for such an extended period of time and we may never see it again. I feel like that was probably the absolute ceiling, where arguably the greatest player ever was at his personal greatest.

I imagine it depend of the value HR had back then because:
1921

1.	Babe Ruth	59
2.	Bob Meusel	24
	Ken Williams	24
4.	Tillie Walker	23
	High Pockets Kelly	23
6.	Rogers Hornsby	21
7.	Harry Heilmann	19
8.	Cy Williams	18
9.	Austin McHenry	17
10.	Bobby Veach	16
	Jimmy Dykes	16
	Elmer Smith	16
	Jack Fournier	16

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1920

1.	Babe Ruth	54
2.	George Sisler	19
3.	Tillie Walker	17
4.	Cy Williams	15
5.	Irish Meusel	14
	Happy Felsch	14
7.	Elmer Smith	12
	Shoeless Joe Jackson	12
9.	Bob Meusel	11
	High Pockets Kelly	11
	Bobby Veach	11
	Aaron Ward	11
	Wally Pipp

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

That would be a good candidate

 

[Boxscore]

I can't see any argument for this... at all.

The "greatest achievement in professional sports history" is not when you miss 1/4 of the games and then your team is upset in the playoffs.

He missed 1/4 of the season due to cancer--not hangovers or a sprained ankle. And he played through it and dominated at close to the highest PPG pace in hockey history. Losing in the playoffs has nothing to do with what Mario did during the 1992-93 regular season.

 

[SwaggySpungo]

Just watching a game from 84 and 93 the difference is extremely evident. I’m sure I don’t have to bring up Gretzky in his late 20’s and already unable to put up 65 goal seasons

That’s a weird flex considering Lemieux only scored more than 50 goals once outside of his 20s.

 

[blogofmike]

Gretzky didn't maintain the Superman goal scorer levels. Does that mean the league got significantly better when he turned 27-28?

Probably not. Brett Hull started dropping 70 goal seasons. Then he dropped off. Did the league suddenly get harder to score in because Hull didn't hit 60 after he was around the same age as Gretzky?

No. It was 92-93. High goal totals for everyone. Scoring 70 all the time is hard to keep up.

The other half for Gretzky was that he stopped shooting as much on the powerplay. Until 1991 he was still a solid ES goal scorer though. Gretzky's 33 ES goals don't sound like a lot, but after 1990, Lemieux scored 33 ES goals in a season once.

 

[bobbyking]

Yes, it's possible that Gretzky from autumn '83 to January '84 was at his very best ever, in terms of regular season performance.

Here's how the NHL stats looked after January 27th, 1984 (the last day of Gretzky's point streak, and one game prior to his going down to injury):

Goals
61 - Gretzky
40 - Vaive (He had 40 goals in 49 games...! Slumped a bit after this.)
39 - Kurri
38 - Goulet
38 - Bossy

Assists
92 - Gretzky
51 - Trottier
51 - Stastny
47 - Coffey
47 - Pederson

POINTS
153 - Gretzky
85 - Kurri
83 - Bossy
79 - Trottier
79 - Stastny

Even-Strength Points
101 - Gretzky
64 - Bossy
62 - Kurri
60 - Goulet
60 - Trottier

Plus / Minus
+71 Gretzky
+46 Bossy
+43 Goulet
+42 Trottier
+40 Coffey

Power-play points
35 - Gretzky
32 - Daoust (Yes, Dan Daoust of the Leafs!)
28 - Federko

Short-handed points
17 - Gretzky
7 - Messier
6 - Nilsson
6 - Carbonneau

Shots on Goal
217 - Gretzky
212 - Ogrodnick
199 - Bourque

Shooting Percentage (min. 40 games)
30.2 - Kurri
29.1 - Goring
28.1 - Gretzky
27.6 - Yzerman
26.8 - Goulet

Much of this damage was done in November 1983, which is almost certainly Gretzky's greatest-ever month in the NHL: In 14 games, he scored 17 goals and 49 points, while going +32.

Just as impressive was his team, Edmonton's, dominance in the League. Up to their 51st game of the season (a tie with New Jersey), Edmonton's record stood at:
38 - 8 - 5
which meant they were pacing for 127 points on the season. After Gretzky went out with a shoulder injury for six games, the Oilers went 1 - 5 - 0 without him (including the infamous 11 - 0 loss to Hartford).

How blasé was the hockey world becoming towards Gretzky's genius during this period? He scored 50 goals in 42 games and it didn't even merit headlines or any particular notice.

he almost had more assists then trotter and statsny combined . WHAT THE PUCK

 

[The Panther]

he almost had more assists then trotter and statsny combined . WHAT THE PUCK

Well, if he hadn't lost six games to injury in 1983-84, he likely would have won the goals-title by 37 or 38 goals, and the scoring race by 100 points over the next non-teammate.

As it is, he won the scoring race on January 7th, 1984 (game 42 of the season).

 

[bobbyking]

Well, if he hadn't lost six games to injury in 1983-84, he likely would have won the goals-title by 37 or 38 goals, and the scoring race by 100 points over the next non-teammate.

As it is, he won the scoring race on January 7th, 1984 (game 42 of the season).

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Big Phil]

I think it is the best any athlete has played, or at least in hockey. Think about it, 51 games, 153 points. That is exactly 3 points a game. You lose your mind if a player gets 12 points in 4 games, imagine that over 51 games. Here is another interesting thing. Gretzky had 153 points in this span before he got stopped. If he sits out the rest of the year this is how the scoring race looks:

Gretzky 153 (51 games)
Coffey 126
Goulet 122
Stastny 119
Bossy 118

Maybe Coffey still leads the NHL, or maybe he doesn't. Either way, you have a player that basically could have sat after 40 games and still won the scoring title. This is incredible. Not to mention the fact that Gretzky has a few other seasons that are near the same level.

 

[HurricaneFanatic]

These numbers are unreal. Seems Wayne really did have a "short career" when it came to dominate goal scoring, though he still did score on the regular until his final few seasons.

I just wish he never got injured in the early 90s. Would have loved to see what his final goal tally could have been. I doubt we would even be talking about Ovi catching him. Ovi has had the luxury of injury free thus far.

 

[HurricaneFanatic]

Gretzky didn't maintain the Superman goal scorer levels. Does that mean the league got significantly better when he turned 27-28?

Probably not. Brett Hull started dropping 70 goal seasons. Then he dropped off. Did the league suddenly get harder to score in because Hull didn't hit 60 after he was around the same age as Gretzky?

No. It was 92-93. High goal totals for everyone. Scoring 70 all the time is hard to keep up.

The other half for Gretzky was that he stopped shooting as much on the powerplay. Until 1991 he was still a solid ES goal scorer though. Gretzky's 33 ES goals don't sound like a lot, but after 1990, Lemieux scored 33 ES goals in a season once.

Gretzky just didn't age well after 30. Plus the back issues didn't help him through the 90s. Back then, generally players did fade after 30, they last longer today. Probably due to better nutrition and far and away better workout regimes.

 

[The Panther]

Gretzky just didn't age well after 30.

I wouldn't quite go that far. In his first three seasons after turning 30, he was:
1991-92 - 2nd in regular season PPG
1992-93 - 1st in playoff scoring with 40 points (after a partial regular season, ending with 46 points in the final 27 games)
1993-94 - 1st in regular season PPG/scoring (Art Ross trophy)

He just was no longer able to tilt the ice at five-on-five like he could before the '91 Canada Cup ended.

The '91 Suter hit is an obvious demarcation point in Gretzky's career, after which he was clearly not the best player in the game anymore. But, after that, and up to spring 1994, I'd say he was still the 2nd-best forward (and probably player) in hockey.

If you wanted to isolate an exact moment in Gretzky's career after which he was not only no longer the best player, but also no longer even "Gretzky" anymore, it would be this (when he was 33):


After this late-season game (a loss), and with the Kings effectively eliminated from the playoffs, Gretzky basically phoned in the rest of the season, scoring 1 goal in eight games and going -10 over that span. (He got hurt in game 81, and missed the last three games.)

The next season, the shortened 1995 season, was arguably the very worst of his career. In 1995-96, he started off quite well, but then fell off badly as the Kings crapped out yet again and transitioned into a rebuild, and finally he was traded to the Pronger + Fossils Blues team for 15 minutes. The inevitable last stop in New York had a few highs, but didn't really add anything to the legacy.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

So we've got two seasons with a high offensive output. How can we tell which is more real and which is more a fluke or from lesser competition?

It doesn't matter.

We measure the potency of a single season by the amount of scoring in that season.

 

[bobholly39]

These numbers are unreal. Seems Wayne really did have a "short career" when it came to dominate goal scoring, though he still did score on the regular until his final few seasons.

I just wish he never got injured in the early 90s. Would have loved to see what his final goal tally could have been. I doubt we would even be talking about Ovi catching him. Ovi has had the luxury of injury free thus far.

I think he was pacing for ~1200 career goals at some point (projected to his final game# totals). That's crazy. 894 is a far cry from that - though of course still more than anyone else.

I know the injury from the Suter hit impacted him - not sure how much his goal-scoring would have remained without it tbh. I certainly don't see Gretzky as someone challenging for rocket trophies in the 90s. Maybe instead of 894, he can approach the ~950-1000 goal mark.

Ovi is a machine. I'm fully on board with him catching Gretzky. Doing so in a much lower scoring era is going to be very impressive. Clearly if Gretzky had approached ~1000, Ovi would have no chance.

Lemieux if he had played anywhere near the amount of games Gretzky had would surely have topped 894. He probably would have been close to ~1000 goals, conservatively.

 

[blogofmike]

I imagine it depend of the value HR had back then because:
1921

1.	Babe Ruth	59
2.	Bob Meusel	24
	Ken Williams	24
4.	Tillie Walker	23
	High Pockets Kelly	23
6.	Rogers Hornsby	21
7.	Harry Heilmann	19
8.	Cy Williams	18
9.	Austin McHenry	17
10.	Bobby Veach	16
	Jimmy Dykes	16
	Elmer Smith	16
	Jack Fournier	16

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1920

1.	Babe Ruth	54
2.	George Sisler	19
3.	Tillie Walker	17
4.	Cy Williams	15
5.	Irish Meusel	14
	Happy Felsch	14
7.	Elmer Smith	12
	Shoeless Joe Jackson	12
9.	Bob Meusel	11
	High Pockets Kelly	11
	Bobby Veach	11
	Aaron Ward	11
	Wally Pipp

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

That would be a good candidate

It depends on how you translate things. Would Runs equal goals and RBIs translate to assists?

This would give Ruth the ability to score 2 personal points on every home run, where he's credited with a run for scoring and an RBI for himself (also anyone else on base).

But looking at Ruth and George Sisler:

1920	Runs	RBI	"Points"
Ruth	158	135	293
Sisler	137	122	259

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

That's a 13% lead which is healthy but doesn't seem overwhelming. Even if no one could compare to potentially the best power hitter of all time, a few players were better contact hitters than the Babe, and many players were better baserunners (Ruth was roughly a 50/50 bet to steal a base, and was famously thrown out trying to steal second to record the final out of Game 7 of the 1926 World Series. It was seen as heroism at the time, but I imagine modern media wouldn't be as kind.)

 

[rfournier103]

Add to that he had a streak from the previous season I think 8-9 games. I am reminded of a quote about Babe Ruth,

“Some 20 years ago, I stopped talking about the Babe for the simple reason that I realized that those who had never seen him didn't believe me.”
- Tommy Holmes (sportswriter).

I love this.

View attachment 318879

Amazing.

Gretzky is definitely the greatest hockey player I’ve ever seen.

 

[MadLuke]

That's a 13% lead which is healthy but doesn't seem overwhelming.

Your calcul/view do seam right:
Wins Above Replacement

1.	Alexander • CHC	12.6
2.	Ruth • NYY	11.8
3.	Sisler • SLB	9.9
4.	Hornsby • STL	9.6
5.	Bagby • CLE	9.0
6.	Coveleski • CLE	8.8
7.	Speaker • CLE	8.5
8.	Grimes • BRO	8.1
9.	Shawkey • NYY	8.0
10.	Collins • CHW	7.9

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Wins Above Replacement for position players

1.	Ruth • NYY	11.9
2.	Sisler • SLB	9.8
3.	Hornsby • STL	9.6
4.	Speaker • CLE	8.5
5.	Collins • CHW	7.9
6.	Jackson • CHW	7.5
7.	Bancroft • 2TM	6.8
8.	Youngs • NYG	6.4
9.	Jacobson • SLB	6.0
10.	Roush • CIN	5.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Your 9.8 * 1.13 = 11.074 is not too far of that 11.9, it was just a freak thing to hit home run those days, not necessarily translating in actual giant offensive domination over is peer it seem.