Is Giroux's Captaincy the Problem?

[Starat327]

Believe me, I'm not saying he's the only problem. These teams were the definition of mediocrity, but if anything we under-performed. Outside of his offensive production, what makes us think he's a good captain? Obviously we don't know what's going on in the locker room, but I don't think we have any good reason to think he's a good leadership figure -- he is great, but the team is undisciplined (not necessarily penalty-wise, but I get the impression the guys on this team **** off a lot and don't give a hoot about winning when it matters, and only seem to pull it together when they're on the verge of elimination and there are zero expectations).

Well, thats kind of it. We dont really know what goes on in the locker room and who is or isnt a good leader. Hell, the team wanted bellemare and AMac to wear the A, so on ice performance is clearly not an indicator of who is or isnt a good leader.

Id say throwing the team on his back last year and carrying not just the team, but also the coach who loaded up on sandbags in to the playoffs is a good indicator. It was a while ago, but i think 'The shift' is a good indicator, as well.

 

[Rebels57]

Believe me, I'm not saying he's the only problem. These teams were the definition of mediocrity, but if anything we under-performed.

Outside of his offensive production, what makes us think he's a good captain? Obviously we don't know what's going on in the locker room, but I don't think I've heard a good reason to think he's a positive leadership figure. Pointing out other reasons for our mediocrity, while true, doesn't answer the question, and neither does saying he produces a ton of our offense, which he does. I'm not here to debate his offensive abilities.

This team is undisciplined and it shows. Not necessarily penalty-wise, but I get the impression the guys on this team **** off a lot. It certainly looks that way when you watch them play. They don't give a hoot about winning, and only seem to pull it together when they're on the verge of elimination and there are zero expectations. To me, that says this team is more talented than the record shows, and that they are not being motivated properly. And while that blame has (rightly) fallen on the coach, our captain should not escape criticism like he has for the last five years.

Let's just end this thread there.

 

[BryzyInPhilly]

Well, thats kind of it. We dont really know what goes on in the locker room and who is or isnt a good leader. Hell, the team wanted bellemare and AMac to wear the A, so on ice performance is clearly not an indicator of who is or isnt a good leader.

Id say throwing the team on his back last year and carrying not just the team, but also the coach who loaded up on sandbags in to the playoffs is a good indicator. It was a while ago, but i think 'The shift' is a good indicator, as well.

Sure, thanks for engaging with me. I think a counter-point is his playoff performance. A very steep drop-off from his regular season production. Obviously other teams are game-planning around him because we lack depth, and Hakstol was bad at adjusting. But 4 points in the last 12 games -- and just 1 goal?! Don't you think that's kind of a no show by our captain when it really mattered?

 

[Beef Invictus]

No

 

[Rich Nixon]

 

[BryzyInPhilly]

Let's just end this thread there.

We don't really know what goes on, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss a possible problem. We don't have personal knowledge about 99% of the things posted on this board so I don't know why that's suddenly a reason to not debate something.

More than anything, I just want to raise the issue so people can reflect on why we think he is a good leader, and to question whether we would be better off accepting we need better leadership in the locker room, and taking steps to address that need. It seems to me this fan base, critical as it is, has completely failed to scrutinize Giroux's captaincy. This is the type of problem that fans and media can actually influence.

I've been a diehard Flyers fan for 20 years, they've been the highlight of my entire life as a sports fan. I hate watching what they've become and sometimes wonder to what extent collective thinking by our fan base can do to get us out of this dark chapter in franchise history. I know criticizing Giroux is controversial and not something we want to do since's been the lone shining star on our team through these years, but I think the organization benefits when we ask questions like these.

Hope I at least planted a seed in y'all's heads, and gave you something to think about and monitor as we watch this team play -- even if we disagree right now and even if I'm just plain wrong, which I hope I am.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sure, thanks for engaging with me. I think a counter-point is his playoff performance. A very steep drop-off from his regular season production. Obviously other teams are game-planning around him because we lack depth, and Hakstol was bad at adjusting. But 4 points in the last 12 games -- and just 1 goal?! Don't you think that's kind of a no show by our captain when it really mattered?

He has 69 points in 65 games, what more do you need?

 

[Rebels57]

We don't really know what goes on, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss a possible problem. We don't have personal knowledge about 99% of the things posted on this board so I don't know why that's suddenly a reason to not debate something.

More than anything, I just want to raise the issue so people can reflect on why we think he is a good leader, and to question whether we would be better off addressing a need for locker room leaders. It seems to me this fan base, critical as it is, has completely failed to scrutinize Giroux's captaincy. Like you guys, I love the Flyers -- huge part of my life -- and I think this state of acceptance/lack of critical discussion by us as fans is bad for the organization, and probably for Giroux as well. We're all rooting for the same successes, and I want us to ask these questions because this is the sort of thing we as fans and the media can actually influence to help the team improve.

Sure it does.

You have no basis to speculate. None whatsoever. Every single quote from one of Girouxs teammates and coachs regarding his leadership has been positive.

Any negative comments usually origianate from braindead Facebook/Twitter fans.

Discussing whether or not the Flyers should relocate to Sheboygan would be just as valid a topic. Both are completely baseless speculation for the sake it.

 

[BryzyInPhilly]

Sure it does.

You have no basis to speculate. None whatsoever. Every single quote from one of Girouxs teammates and coachs regarding his leadership has been positive.

Any negative comments usually origianate from braindead Facebook/Twitter fans.

Discussing whether or not the Flyers should relocate to Sheboygan would be just as valid a topic. Both are completely baseless speculation for the sake it.

But I do have a basis to speculate. Anyone with a pair of eyes can see this team plays with no heart or motivation, which is (at least partly) the captain's job to fix. And when it mattered most in the playoffs, he has been a total no-show. We have not won a single series with him as captain. Being our engine on offense doesn't make him a good leader, it makes him good at offense. Do you really think Kuznetsov should be a captain? No, because offensive production isn't a meaningful indicator of leadership ability.

 

[Starat327]

Sure, thanks for engaging with me. I think a counter-point is his playoff performance. A very steep drop-off from his regular season production. Obviously other teams are game-planning around him because we lack depth, and Hakstol was bad at adjusting. But 4 points in the last 12 games -- and just 1 goal?! Don't you think that's kind of a no show by our captain when it really mattered?

I think you already said exactly why that happened though. When you only have to plan for one player, it becomes a lot easier to shut them down.

 

[BryzyInPhilly]

I think you already said exactly why that happened though. When you only have to plan for one player, it becomes a lot easier to shut them down.

Sure, and that absolutely was a factor. We did not give him all the tools to succeed. But how can we ignore our locker room leader and supreme offensive talent getting flatly shutout in one series, and only scoring one goal the next time around. He was just bad, he under-performed when it mattered and that is meaningful when evaluating a captain. And the teams were Washington and Pittsburgh -- obviously these were great teams when we faced them, but their defenses should not have been able to hold a 100 points scorer to 1 goal in 12 games. No way.

 

[freakydallas13]

Only if you think the captain is responsible for making other players on the team play with more talent.

 

[Rebels57]

Only if you think the captain is responsible for making other players on the team play with more talent.

Blows my mind that people think a letter on a jersey gives someone super powers.

Great coaching + High skill across the lineup in all positions leads to success. Period. Who wears the letters has the least amount of impact and will never turn a poorly coached team with a mediocre or bad lineup into a good team.

 

[deadhead]

He got shut out in one series b/c he was injured.
Against the Pens, both Giroux and Ghost struggled, and that was a depth problem, Flyers didn't match up well and lacked the depth to compensate when the Pens focused on stopping certain players.

Now if you want to argue that Giroux isn't an elite player who can carry a team on his back anymore (unlike the 22-24 year old version), you'll get no argument from me - which is why I think people who whine that the prospects won't be ready before Giroux declines miss the point - he's already declined in that sense. He's going to be a complementary player on any Flyer Cup team.

But as a role model, veteran leader, Giroux is perfect for a team full of talented young kids who need someone to set an example.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Jesus dude, I'm not reading all of that

 

[The Madrigal]

No, end thread.

 

[flyersfan187]

Without Giroux this team would have been at the bottom of the league standings every year since Hak was coach.

 

[Foggy14]

Is Giroux's Captaincy the Problem?

No.

 

[DancingPanther]

 

[kudymen]

Jesus f***

 

[kudymen]

Also, the "the" article in the title is misleading as hell considering what you're saying in the thread.

 

[dats81]

Do we really need this thread?

Giroux is the symbol of the modern era Flyers. If he ends up winning a cup, they not only retire his number but will have to build a 50ft monument to worship him.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Yes absolutely. The weight of the captaincy has truly ruined him. This is why he has never competed for a Hart Trophy and is considered one of the most overrated players in the game. The sky is this limit for him and this team...but only if they make Coots the captain.

 

[Appleyard]

Steve Yzerman had worse results and was so often called out in national media as a "bad" leader. (And unlike Giroux was also called selfish, and was considered - unfairly - bad defensively)

Hey presto, given a good team round them and ten years later he is considered one of the best leaders ever.

Since 2011-12 the Flyers have at no point had a #1 and 4x top 4 Dmen at the same point, and at no point had 3x top 9 centres... and for half that time had no goalie.

He dragged this team kicking and screaming to the playoffs on at least two occasions in that time, has one of the best individual playoff resumes in Flyers history, and has been top 4 in Hart voting 3x now despite having a below average team around him most years.

The guy should be a HHoF one day... no orange tinted glasses there... he has a better individual resume than like 40% of the guys in.

You can only "lead" what you have behind you. And the last time the Flyers were objectively a contender on paper was 2011-12. Though next year - a couple of things dependant - they should be again.

He will go down as probably the 3rd best Flyer all time after Clarke and Parent. Difference is they had Bladon as a #4 and van Impe as a #5, MacLeish at 2C... and Saleski, Kindrachuk and Kelly on their 3rd line.

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

@HakstolisAFartVacuum — love when they make it this easy for us, dude.