Is Erik Karlsson still a top 5-10 dman?

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GreatGonzo

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Anyone who thinks EK isn't one of the greatest defenseman ever is so absurd that all I can do is point and laugh at them. A few years back he all but singlehandedly carried a putrid Sens team who if you forced captured enemy combatants to watch their games would be a violation of the Geneva Convention to within a goal of the Stanley Cup Finals.
Since when is anyone an all time great for “almost” doing anything? The way you hype it up, you make it sound like he actually won. He’s obviously a unique defenseman and has already made his case for the history books, but he still has a lot of hockey to play.
 
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sabremike

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Since when is anyone an all time great for “almost” doing anything? The way you hype it up, you make it sound like he actually won. He’s obviously a unique defenseman and has already made his case for the history books, but he still has a lot of hockey to play.
So when Hasek carried us to the finals in 1999 (and had carried the team for years) he couldn't be considered an all time great because he only almost won the cup?
 

Raccoon Jesus

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What kind of logic is that? You act like the 2016 Kings were a powerhouse. He played the heavy minutes while contributing offensively. He is one of the best defensive defenseman in the league while having a great offensive touch.

Don’t use Ottawa as a scape goat to EKs lack of. Doughty is superior defensively and always has been. It’s EKs offense that have many thinking he’s better.

if anything, LAST year is a good example of Doughty playing great on a terrible team, and he had arguably a better case for Norris than Hedman, but there wasn't much noise about it because the Swedes backed Hedman and the EK fans backed not-Doughty because another Doughty Norris would cause a stir. There was Anze Kopitar and Drew Doughty and damn near nothing else (Dustin Brown too, sorry) and two career years carried them kicking and screaming to the playoffs but nowhere else. They were getting absolutely caved in without him and Game 2 of the playoffs when he was suspended should tell you everything about what happens when a good Doughty is off the ice (but we rarely have to deal with that because he's been so healthy and consistent, which he instead gets punished for instead of applauded for). This year is a good example of what happens when Doughty (and Kopitar to a degree) struggle for the Kings, though it's overstated since (ironically, I'll add, since the EK booster club usually gets upset about plus minus except this one for reasons) his EN goals are rough. He had 20 bad games by his standards but people forget he was literally 0 GA through several games before hurting for 20 or so.

The real problem is selective attention. 20 bad games by Doughty gets this rep that he doesn't know what to do on a struggling team, but 100 bad games by EK gets excused entirely, because Doughty's game is rarely based on flash and raw offensive numbers. We used to joke he'd lead the league in third assists because of all the plusses he racks up in transition that he doesn't get an assist on. Hell the one VS SJ the other night is emblematic of how he drives offense without credit--draws all three SJ checkers, breaks the play the other way, goal, Kopitar causally cruising by EK.
 

Agent Zub

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What kind of logic is that? You act like the 2016 Kings were a powerhouse. He played the heavy minutes while contributing offensively. He is one of the best defensive defenseman in the league while having a great offensive touch.

Don’t use Ottawa as a scape goat to EKs lack of. Doughty is superior defensively and always has been. It’s EKs offense that have many thinking he’s better.


Lol compared to the Senators the 2016 Kings were absolutely a powerhouse.

Kopitar and Carter are two of the best two way centers of the 2010s. Contrast that with Karlsson playing with Kyle Turris and the likes of Pageau and Brassard as his best centers. Thats not even going into the rest of the team.

Doughty would have looked a lot worse than Karlsson on the Senators. And it's not even a dig at Doughty it's just that Karlsson can carry the team in a way Doughty can't.

Playing safe doesn't automatically make a player better defensively.
 
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GreatGonzo

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So when Hasek carried us to the finals in 1999 (and had carried the team for years) he couldn't be considered an all time great because he only almost won the cup?
No I’m pretty sure what made him an all time great and arguably best goalie of all time was his 6 Vezinas, 2 Harts, two Pearsons, unique and revolutionary style, all while carrying around a very mediocre Buffalo team a majority of his career.....he then had a terrific post season and finally won his cup in ‘02.

That status has never been used to describe someone who “almost” did anything. EK isn’t all time great because he almost did that.
 

Agent Zub

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if anything, LAST year is a good example of Doughty playing great on a terrible team, and he had arguably a better case for Norris than Hedman, but there wasn't much noise about it because the Swedes backed Hedman and the EK fans backed not-Doughty. There was Anze Kopitar and Drew Doughty and damn near nothing else (Dustin Brown too, sorry) and two career years carried them kicking and screaming to the playoffs but nowhere else. This year is a good example of what happens when Doughty (and Kopitar to a degree) struggle for the Kings, though it's overstated since (ironically, I'll add, since the EK booster club usually gets upset about plus minus except this one for reasons) his EN goals are rough. He had 20 bad games by his standards but people forget he was literally 0 GA through several games before hurting for 20 or so.

The real problem is selective attention.

Yep, now imagine Doughty with Kyle Turris instead of Anze Kopitar.

Also I thought Doughty was fantastic that year. If he hadn't already won a norris he would have beat out Hedman.
 

Ben White

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No I’m pretty sure what made him an all time great and arguably best goalie of all time was his 6 Vezinas, 2 Harts, two Pearsons, unique and revolutionary style, all while carrying around a very mediocre Buffalo team a majority of his career.....he then had a terrific post season and finally won his cup in ‘02.

That status has never been used to describe someone who “almost” did anything. EK isn’t all time great because he almost did that.

No, he is an all time great because of what he actually did. Who are you to decide what’s an actual achievement and what is not?
 

Raccoon Jesus

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Lol compared to the Senators the 2016 Kings were absolutely a powerhouse.

Kopitar and Carter are two of the best two way centers of the 2010s. Contrast that with Karlsson playing with Kyle Turris and the likes of Pageau and Brassard as his best centers. Thats not even going into the rest of the team.

Doughty would have looked a lot worse than Karlsson on the Senators. And it's not even a dig at Doughty it's just that Karlsson can carry the team in a way Doughty can't.

Playing safe doesn't automatically make a player better defensively.

I'll agree with that in a way--he's high event, and higher offense. On an Ottawa team like the ones he was on, he can outscore his problems, though he'll create others. Doughty mitigates the bleeding, but he won't outright score you out of trouble as often. You can't defend someone to death/victory and if no one can do anything with your elite transition game you're still stuck in the mud. Then again there are some times I'm just maddened with how little people can score around Drew, and it's not because of a lack of ability, it's a lack of finish. Similaly though EK did have a relative lack of support defensively. It's why I always said they're almost as polar opposite as elite d-men can be. The stuff I take issue with is the runaway "AINEC" bs.

The other myth is that Doughty is just some safe d-man with no offensive ability.


Yep, now imagine Doughty with Kyle Turris instead of Anze Kopitar.

Also I thought Doughty was fantastic that year. If he hadn't already won a norris he would have beat out Hedman.

But people act like EK had nothing. If he was racking up assists, somoene was scoring, right? People always neglect to mention Hoffman was a 29 goal scorer that year too (yes, enabled by Karlsson, but someone had to finish), and Turris isn't chopped liver.

And I don't think having Turris instead of Kopitar would have changed much about Doughty's game that year. He was phenomenal everywhere.
 
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Ben White

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Arguing between Doughty and EK is like arguing between Bret Hart and Ric Flair: they are both ****ing amazing and you can't go wrong with either.

More like arguing between Crosby and Bergeron. Both are great but it’s not really something to argue about.
 

GreatGonzo

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Lol compared to the Senators the 2016 Kings were absolutely a powerhouse.

Kopitar and Carter are two of the best two way centers of the 2010s. Contrast that with Karlsson playing with Kyle Turris and the likes of Pageau and Brassard as his best centers. Thats not even going into the rest of the team.

Doughty would have looked a lot worse than Karlsson on the Senators. And it's not even a dig at Doughty it's just that Karlsson can carry the team in a way Doughty can't.

Playing safe doesn't automatically make a player better defensively.
So Doughty can’t get the same treatment playing on a good team than EK on a bad team? That’s interesting....

And Doughty was still never much their best defenseman and among their best players. Your comparing a player who leads his team offensively to a player who is their anchor defensively. Either way you spin in, Doughty is still a top defenseman....the irony is anyone saying otherwise which is hilarious given EKs situation.

You can’t say that though can you. Just like you can’t say EK would have made the Kings better. It’s honestly humorous how your trying to act as if you have some sort of ability to actually know that sort of information and we can just take your word for it....
 

NyQuil

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You keep saying “I told you so”, as if half of Ottawa’s fan base wasn’t gloating about trading washed up Erik Karlsson for young studs in Tierney and DeMelo, and most of San Jose’s fan base wasn’t saying that Karlsson had played very well and was just unlucky.

Yeah this is bullshit.

We had Senators fans in your Karlsson threads telling you to step away from the ledge because everything was going to work out fine.

I know because I was there saying “be patient”.

Let’s not pretend all Sharks fans were on board.
 
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Agent Zub

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Yeah this is bull****.

We had Senators fans in your Karlsson threads telling you to step away from the ledge because everything was going to work out fine.

I know because I was there saying “be patient”.

Let’s not pretend all Sharks fans were on board.

Honestly people remember what makes the biggest impact on them. There must have been all of Senators fans who thought Tierny and DeMelo were better and most seem to be Melnyk bot accounts.

I mean I don't know if people realize but the city of Ottawa has boycotted the senators because of the trade.
 

sabremike

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No, he is an all time great because of what he actually did. Who are you to decide what’s an actual achievement and what is not?
Apparently 2 Norris trophies (and one where he had the second most points of any winner of the past 25 years, which is a quarter of the league's entire existence) aren't an achievement (and keep in mind the level of competition at the position in his era).
 

GreatGonzo

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if anything, LAST year is a good example of Doughty playing great on a terrible team, and he had arguably a better case for Norris than Hedman, but there wasn't much noise about it because the Swedes backed Hedman and the EK fans backed not-Doughty because another Doughty Norris would cause a stir. There was Anze Kopitar and Drew Doughty and damn near nothing else (Dustin Brown too, sorry) and two career years carried them kicking and screaming to the playoffs but nowhere else. They were getting absolutely caved in without him and Game 2 of the playoffs when he was suspended should tell you everything about what happens when a good Doughty is off the ice (but we rarely have to deal with that because he's been so healthy and consistent, which he instead gets punished for instead of applauded for). This year is a good example of what happens when Doughty (and Kopitar to a degree) struggle for the Kings, though it's overstated since (ironically, I'll add, since the EK booster club usually gets upset about plus minus except this one for reasons) his EN goals are rough. He had 20 bad games by his standards but people forget he was literally 0 GA through several games before hurting for 20 or so.

The real problem is selective attention. 20 bad games by Doughty gets this rep that he doesn't know what to do on a struggling team, but 100 bad games by EK gets excused entirely, because Doughty's game is rarely based on flash and raw offensive numbers. We used to joke he'd lead the league in third assists because of all the plusses he racks up in transition that he doesn't get an assist on. Hell the one VS SJ the other night is emblematic of how he drives offense without credit--draws all three SJ checkers, breaks the play the other way, goal, Kopitar causally cruising by EK.
Exactly. Many people can’t find value in him because he isn’t flashy with sexy stats. Because he doesn’t lead his team in points or assists.

He is just as good, and arguably better than EK as a defenseman. But this year has a lot of the EK crowd hooting and hollering about how bad he is now. Like you have pointed out, a complete change of pace from EK last season.
 

GreatGonzo

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No, he is an all time great because of what he actually did. Who are you to decide what’s an actual achievement and what is not?
Well ALMOST getting your team into the finals and ALMOST winning the cup aren’t achievements. I never said what he has actually achieved doesn’t make him a historic defenseman, it’s that deliberate obtuse comment that Hasek was obviously considered an all time great for carrying a bad team to the finals and almost winning.
 

Raccoon Jesus

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Exactly. Many people can’t find value in him because he isn’t flashy with sexy stats. Because he doesn’t lead his team in points or assists.

He is just as good, and arguably better than EK as a defenseman. But this year has a lot of the EK crowd hooting and hollering about how bad he is now. Like you have pointed out, a complete change of pace from EK last season.

People always question whether 'defensive impact' is really a big deal, and I just point out--I forget now which year it was because it happened frequently--that the Kings were better than the Washington Capitals (best in the league that year) defensively with Drew on the ice, he was 1.4-1.6 GA/60 all year, caps were 1.8 or something like that--but with him off the ice, they were mid-20s at 2.6-2.8. It was literally the difference between better than the best and a borderline lottery team. Not sexy to watch, unless you watch a lot, then you notice. But otherwise? He's almost best when invisible and that punishes him.
 

Agent Zub

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So Doughty can’t get the same treatment playing on a good team than EK on a bad team? That’s interesting....

And Doughty was still never much their best defenseman and among their best players. Your comparing a player who leads his team offensively to a player who is their anchor defensively. Either way you spin in, Doughty is still a top defenseman....the irony is anyone saying otherwise which is hilarious given EKs situation.

You can’t say that though can you. Just like you can’t say EK would have made the Kings better. It’s honestly humorous how your trying to act as if you have some sort of ability to actually know that sort of information and we can just take your word for it....

Karlssom is a McDavid, Crosby, Malkin caliber player. Of course he would have made the Kings better lol.

Just look at how much he is dominating on a good sharks team.

He's playing ppg hockey while taking few if any offensive risks. That's what would have happened if the Senators were a good team or if Karlsson played on the Kings.

Anyway I have never said that Doughty isn't a top defenceman. He's one of the best of his generation.
 

GreatGonzo

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Karlssom is a McDavid, Crosby, Malkin caliber player. Of course he would have made the Kings better lol.

Just look at how much he is dominating on a good sharks team.

He's playing ppg hockey while taking few if any offensive risks. That's what would have happened if the Senators were a good team or if Karlsson played on the Kings.

Anyway I have never said that Doughty isn't a top defenceman. He's one of the best of his generation.
Is he though? I don’t really see how you can make that call. He isn’t even the undipusted best defenseman....

The Sharks were doing great before EK. Your also forgetting how great Burns and company is playing. But ya give EK all the credit, not surprised.

Again with your stupid scenerios. Fact is you can’t make any such claims. EK has also been sheltered a majority of this season, allowing him and Burns to take on a more offensive role. The Sharks aren’t living and dying with EK.
 

Agent Zub

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The point is that his advanced stats are great and the offence is still there now that he’s on a decent team.

Which is what we said would happen all along.

And all with less effort spent.

It's borderline impossible for a defenceman to be Norris caliber on bad teams. As Doughty is finding out.
 
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TomasHertlsRooster

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Yeah this is bull****.

We had Senators fans in your Karlsson threads telling you to step away from the ledge because everything was going to work out fine.

I know because I was there saying “be patient”.

Let’s not pretend all Sharks fans were on board.

Most of us were, and there were plenty of outsiders telling us about how awful Karlsson was.

Take a look at some of the responses in this thread. You even posted in page 37 of this one, so maybe you’ll start to understand my frustrations. I was in an argument with a Senators fan who was convinced that they had won the trade when it was locked.

JoeThorntonsRooster said:
Have fun with Caved in Chris and Dumbass Dylan. I’ll be sure to bump this thread by game 40 when they regress to the mean.

Unfortunately, that thread was locked and I’m not able to bump it now that Caved in Chris is on pace for like 45 points playing awful defense, DeMelo is a nothing player, and Karlsson’s name is back in Norris talks.

Take a look at this one too.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
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You’re all class.

I don’t how many times we have to say we were bent over in the trade until you’re satisfied.

I’m done here.
 
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