Is Downie bringing us down with the refs?

[Penguinator]

I like the guy but it seems we're getting regularly screwed by the the refs this season so...

Could it be cause and effect?

Is this guy labeled? Persona non grata?

Click to read more...

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Honestly how can they play Downie in the playoffs? Yeah no one wants Adams to play but again, how can they afford to play Downie? To me the answer right now is that they can't.

Nothing against you OP, but I hear that a lot about Downie: "I like him a lot BUT....". That's a big 'but'. He can single-handedly cost the team a game any given night.

As far as the refs, every team has a few games a year where they feel the refs were on crack. We're no different. Plus, NHL refs just simply aren't that good and the game is too fast. There will always be crap calls. Now believe me, there have been some calls this year that defied all logic, but it's been both ways if you're paying attention and being honest.

 

[kodoshin]

He's certainly not helping. But, let's be honest here, this team, for too long, has been more than willing to let things get completely out of hand. In a regular season game like yesterday, who cares? Once or twice here and there, whatever, but these symptoms to me feel like they will again manifest in the playoffs. Could spell a quick exit.

As far as Downie specifically, the team knew what it was getting into when they signed him. If they didn't have such significant turnover during the offseason I don't think they would have taken a gamble on him, but they needed someone who was somewhat capable, and in spite of his problems, he has been a decent contributor to this team. Will we need him again next year? Depends on who we retain from this team since we are again in position to have a lot of contract turnover, but I wouldn't be surprised if they let him walk.

 

[cassius]

Yes.

 

[Shady Machine]

Nope. He and the Pens are plenty undisciplined. I don't think the fact that Downie is on the team has much to do with unwarranted penalties

 

[Vujtek]

Downie got the team two PP opportunities last night. His misconducts don't hurt the team much. So no, he's not bringing the team down.

 

[Til the End of Time]

downie is a problem but he's also a scapegoat for the general lack of discipline that the rest of the team suffers from.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

downie is a problem but he's also a scapegoat for the general lack of discipline that the rest of the team suffers from.

I don't think they've been bad at all this year. Yesterday was an exception that harkened back to Bylsma's tenure. It's the exception not the rule now. Up until this year you'd have Neal acting like a clown every other game, Malkin every 3-4 games, Letang, and even Crosby at times.

 

[Fordy]

letang and others are just as bad if not worse

 

[WayneSid9987]

I find just his presence causes some refs to get moody. Like, do they view his hits as borderline? That, maybe, combined with what he says on the ice really seems to irk some refs.

We've all heard the refs coming over to the bench and saying "calm Downie down or else!".

It will be interesting if they let him play his game or not come playoff time. Chances are they won't and they'll just make an example out of him. I still play him though cuz he's as good as a secondary scorer as we are gonna get right now.

 

[Til the End of Time]

I don't think they've been bad at all this year. Yesterday was an exception that harkened back to Bylsma's tenure. It's the exception not the rule now. Up until this year you'd have Neal acting like a clown every other game, Malkin every 3-4 games, Letang, and even Crosby at times.

if you remove downie from the pens lineup and replaced him with a squeeky clean player that took absolutely no penalties all year, the penguins would still be the 5th most penalized team in the league. so yeah, i think discipline is still an issue, irrespective of steve downie.

on the subject of downie, wasnt tocchet supposed to be able to keep him in line and help him thrive offensively, like he did in tampa bay?

seems like tocchet has failed miserably at that, just like he has with the powerplay.

 

[Joejosh999]

To be fair a large nbr of the calls against Downie are just because of who he is.
Having said that, we knew that going in ( I presume ).

Of course in playoffs refs will let things go they might otherwise call , so will Downie benefit from that?

Dunno, but I still play him over Adams 10 games out of 10.

 

[Sam Spade]

Yes, and if they play him in the playoffs it will come back to bite them. The refs watch him, fairly or not, why make it an issue, just sit him.

That being said I agree with this:

letang and others are just as bad if not worse

Pens have some mentally weak players for sure.

 

[billybudd]

Pens generally have a "whine at the officials" problem, which is getting them into trouble. Downie's one of about a half dozen guys who would be better off shutting the **** up to the referees no matter what happens. Yelling at them doesn't get you anywhere, especially if you don't have a letter, in which case they can ring you up for unsportsmanlike pretty much whenever they feel like it.

Wings get the most-favorable officiating in the national hockey league for many years now. Way they do it is the players don't talk to the refs hardly at all. But Babcock whines constantly then gives them backhanded compliments in his post-game pressers.

Yes, and if they play him in the playoffs it will come back to bite them. The refs watch him, fairly or not, why make it an issue, just sit him.

If Hornqvist's hurt, Downie's our second-best offensive threat at right wing by a decent margin. We actually need him to score and can't sit him.

 

[systemsgo]

I don't think they've been bad at all this year. Yesterday was an exception that harkened back to Bylsma's tenure. It's the exception not the rule now. Up until this year you'd have Neal acting like a clown every other game, Malkin every 3-4 games, Letang, and even Crosby at times.

Yeah. Downie has a rep, and he likes to push things too far, but it's a little different. He looks too angry to control, while our stars look like kids who don't get their way and they start to play dirty and lose focus.

And Downie, for all of his rep, I don't see him playing dirtier on the ice (so far) when he loses it and he looks like he gets more into the game. He just runs his mouth a lot and won't stop.

Downie with all his warts, is still far far better than Adams will ever be. Downie is a guy who can lose you games, but he can also win you some. Adams can only lose you games, or at his very very best, not hurt the team.

 

[plaidchuck]

He was worth a shot but ultimately a bust signing like Ehrhoff. Back to the drawing board this offseason.

 

[billybudd]

Yeah. Downie has a rep, and he likes to push things too far, but it's a little different. He looks too angry to control, while our stars look like kids who don't get their way and they start to play dirty and lose focus.

And Downie, for all of his rep, I don't see him playing dirtier on the ice (so far) when he loses it and he looks like he gets more into the game. He just runs his mouth a lot and won't stop.

Downie with all his warts, is still far far better than Adams will ever be. Downie is a guy who can lose you games, but he can also win you some. Adams can only lose you games, or at his very very best, not hurt the team.

That's the only thing the guy should change. Run your mouth at the other team all you want, but if I'm the coach, every time he says something to an official, I'm making him do 10 pushups on the ice during stoppages.

If you get penalties, get them for doing something aggressive to the other team. Do NOT get them for arguing with a ref. On top of that doing nothing to make the other team play worse, unsportsmanlikes snowball into phantom penalties later.

Perron's another guy whose game I like that needs to shut the **** up to the refs.

 

[Joejosh999]

I'd love to quantify how many games Adams loses us...it's just not as obvious as Downie.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Downie is not a problem. He is not the reason we lost yesterday. There's no reason to sit him in the playoffs. If anything, he'll be even more helpful since less calls are made.

 

[Jacob]

Do the refs regularly screw Philly because of Rinaldo? Or Minnesota because of Cooke? Or Chicago because of Carcillo?

He certainly doesn't get any lee-way from the refs but it goes beyond that. It's certainly a combination of the Penguins being undisciplined as a whole (probably a reverb effect of being called too soft) and the refs just being inept and wanting to send messages, settle scores and control the flow of games.

 

[billybudd]

Do the refs regularly screw Philly because of Rinaldo? Or Minnesota because of Cooke? Or Chicago because of Carcillo?

He certainly doesn't get any lee-way from the refs but it goes beyond that. It's certainly a combination of the Penguins being undisciplined as a whole (probably a reverb effect of being called too soft) and the refs just being inept and wanting to send messages, settle scores and control the flow of games.

Seems like Downie gets more questionable calls than those guys. More than any player we've had since Ruutu.

Obvious difference between Cooke and those two is that Cooke didn't run his mouth at the stripes as much.

 

[drpepper]

Pittsburgh generally has a good penalty differential, and this year it is negative.

Team | Time | PenDiff
Pittsburgh | 2014-15 | -25
Pittsburgh | 2013-14 | 36
Pittsburgh | 10Y | 92
Pittsburgh | 5YR | 67
Pittsburgh | 2YR | 11
League Avg | 2014-15 | 0

First, Downie takes too many penalties himself. As a percentage of the Penguin's totals, he's been called for:

PIM | 22%
Minor | 14%
Major | 22%
Misconduct | 50%
G Misconduct | 33%
Fighting | 23%

Regardless of their validity, the refs don't like Downie and will call him.

Second, the team is not completely innocent either. The rest of the team has 257 minor penalties (would tie for 9th with TBL) and 781 minutes (would be 4th). The rest of the team (including Sill and Bortuzzo) account for 9 misconducts (would be 2nd).

I would argue that Downie takes too many penalties himself; that the Pens are vulnerable to getting off their game by bad refereeing decisions which Downie exacerbates by being Downie, taking penalties, and losing his cool; and that the referees don't give the rest of the team the benefit of the doubt (in calling penalties or not calling penalties) due in part to Downie's reputation.

It's a shame because Downie clearly has talent, but I don't think that he has been a net positive impact on the team.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Nah. We've had discipline problems for years now.

 

[Freeptop]

Say what you will about Kerry Fraser, but the fact is, this is likely the view most refs have of the Pens at this point:

The Penguins have earned the undesirable reputation with several of the referees for having too much to say. As a team, they need to turn off the tap on their own as they move toward the playoffs. The referees' patience has already worn thin.

http://www.tsn.ca/talent/c-mon-ref-third-man-in-not-in-this-case-1.232409

That whole article should be sent to the players, with a notation saying, "time to shut your mouths out there on the ice."

 

[Black Label]

Downie isn't the problem, but he's an easy scapegoat.