Is Crosby The GOAT?

[blundluntman]

If people are accused of being nostalgic for overrating players from the past, this is recency bias at it's worst. He's not even in the Big 4 group, there's no argument whatsoever for him being the goat. He could very well end up top 5 in an absolute best case scenario but anything else is flat out delusion.

 

[authentic]

Because you haven’t been watching hockey long enough

Clever response. Where would you rank him?

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Two kind if fans
Crosby is the greatest
Crosby is a crybaby

Naw...I don't think this is the case
Lots o Pens fans in here who obviously like Sid but recognize he's nowhere near Mario/Gretz. Those guys are in completely different tiers

The other fans barely believe Sid is a top 50 player

 

[McGuires Corndog]

There’s a serious arguement he’s not even better than Jagr, who is unanimously below guys like Gretzky, Lemieux & Howe.

There’s an arguement that he’s not even the best of his era, although I would suggest that is mostly due to unfortunate and untimely injuries. But be that as it may, it is what it is... Lindros had his career cut short and decimated by injuries as well.

 

[3rdLiner]

He's not even the greatest penguin.

 

[pitcher]

I don't really see how a player who's been the best of the best his entire life in the most talented era of hockey could be anything less than top 5. No one except Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, and now it looks like McDavid could say that. Let's be honest, if he didn't miss all that time from 2010-2013 would top 5 even be a question? I don't think so.

He hasn't been the best of the best his entire life tho, that is where I think the problem lies. Crosby might have been overall the best since he joined the league, but he definitely haven't been the best year in year out, including in years where he was healthy He got beat year after year by Ovy, Malkin, Kane, Benn,
the Sedins... all within his prime and healthy years. Tell me, how many time Gretzky or Mario got beat in their healthy prime years again? Hell Mario was far from being healthy in his prime, was missing a lot of games and still obliterating his peers.

Both of them didn't need to be given controversial Smythes either, they were mega beast in playoffs and were clearly deserving.

And that whole argument about his lost time becomes moot as soon as you realize and accept that Mario suffers from far worst and still came out on top, still winning during those years of pain and illness. And check the stats, Mario's best ppg years are his complete/almost complete seasons, while Crosby's are his shortened ones. That tells to me that Mario was
even more hurt by his health problems than Crosby, but still was more dominant compared to his peers. Mario has proven to be able to do better while healthy, While Crosby hasn't, his shorten season high ppg looks unsustainable for him over full seasons in hindsight.

And after saying all that, consider that most people consider Gretzky greater than Mario, and have him mixed somewhere in position 2-4 all time with Orr
and Howe. No, Crosby is not the GOAT, as other have said, he's not even the goat of his own franchise.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

He's not even the greatest penguin.

Might not even be the 2nd best penguin, lol.

 

[blundluntman]

He hasn't been the best of the best his entire life tho, that is where I think the problem lies. Crosby might have been overall the best since he joined the league, but he definitely haven't been the best year in year out, including in years where he was healtht. He got beat year after year by Ovy, Malkin, Kane, Benn,
the Sedins... all withing his prime and healthy years. Tell me, how many time Gretzky or Mario got beat in their healthy prime years again? Hell Mario was far from being healthy in his prime, was missing a lot of games and still obliterating his peers.

Both of them didn't need to be given controversial Smythes either, they were mega beast in playoffs and were clearly deserving.

Exactly. Hell, you could argue Gretzky had Smythes taken away from him if anything lol. Neither of them gave the voters a choice to give "parity awards" to other players.

 

[MoistDadBod]

Tell me, how many time Gretzky or Mario got beat in their healthy prime years again? Hell Mario was far from being healthy in his prime, was missing a lot of games and still obliterating his peers.

Mario did get crushed by a peer in his prime though. One in particular...

Taking just the years they played in the league together before Mario's hiatus (84-85 to 96-97) Wayne outscored Mario by 249 points. So yeah, he got crushed. This is taking away the points Wayne had in 94-95 for obvious reasons.

 

[66871]

No. If he sticks around long enough and has a strong back half to his career he *might* be 4B. Almost assuredly not 4A and no chance in hell at being above that. And McDavid might overtake him.

 

[authentic]

He hasn't been the best of the best his entire life tho, that is where I think the problem lies. Crosby might have been overall the best since he joined the league, but he definitely haven't been the best year in year out, including in years where he was healthy He got beat year after year by Ovy, Malkin, Kane, Benn,
the Sedins... all within his prime and healthy years. Tell me, how many time Gretzky or Mario got beat in their healthy prime years again? Hell Mario was far from being healthy in his prime, was missing a lot of games and still obliterating his peers.

Both of them didn't need to be given controversial Smythes either, they were mega beast in playoffs and were clearly deserving.

And that whole argument about his lost time becomes moot as soon as you realize and accept that Mario suffers from far worst and still came out on top, still winning during those years of pain and illness. And check the stats, Mario's best ppg years are his complete/almost complete seasons, while Crosby's are his shortened ones. That tells to me that Mario was
even more hurt by his health problems than Crosby, but still was more dominant compared to his peers. Mario has proven to be able to do better while healthy, While Crosby hasn't, his shorten season high ppg looks unsustainable for him over full seasons in hindsight.

And after saying all that, consider that most people consider Gretzky greater than Mario, and have him mixed somewhere in position 2-4 all time with Orr
and Howe. No, Crosby is not the GOAT, as other have said, he's not even the goat of his own franchise.

I never said he was the greatest of all time, I said top 5 for the reasons you stated above. No one besides them has been as much better than their peers their entire life, name me one besides the big 4, and Jagr, Hasek, Hull, etc. don't qualify, the only reason this is a question is because Crosby missed out on possibly the three consecutive peak years of his career and it also made him play a more tentative and cautious brand of hockey for the rest of his career.

 

[Yackiberg8]

As the game has evolved I think the quality of players in the NHL is enormously better and the difference between the top players and the bottom players in the league is much smaller. This should be taken into account when considering how good Crosby has been.

That being said I don't think he was as good as Lemieux or Gretzky. I think there is a definite argument he will finish his career at #3.

 

[The Shovel Penguin]

In my experience, most Pens fans I know love Crosby and feel he's been the greatest player in the league for the past decade and will go down as one of the greatest players ever. We've been so fortunate to have him.

All that said, I don't know any that truly believe he's better than Mario was. Especially those of us who remember watching Le Magnifique play. That's not a dig on Crosby, more of just a testament to how great Lemieux really was. To me he was the most physically gifted player ever to lace up skates.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

As the game has evolved I think the quality of players in the NHL is enormously better and the difference between the top players and the bottom players in the league is much smaller. This should be taken into account when considering how good Crosby has been.

That being said I don't think he was as good as Lemieux or Gretzky. I think there is a definite argument he will finish his career at #3.

he has a 0.0% chance of sniffing Orr and Howe, let alone pass them

 

[Passchendaele]

There's no way in hell a prime Lemieux or Gretzky doesn't lap the field or lose a scoring championship to Jamie Benn.

37-year old Lemieux was neck-and-neck with prime Peter Forsberg in PPG.

 

[ImNeverWrong]

Nope. But mcdavid will be. Come at me.

 

[NoMessi]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO, AINEC.



Thats what the penguins fb page says. Ofc its a lie since hes not even close to being the best Penguin of all time, but apparently 57k people that liked the post are dumb enough to believe it. 'Murica

 

[Cursed Lemon]

"We're not being unreasonable, Crosby is definitely not better than Gretzky or Mario!"

*quietly omits Howe*

 

[McFlash97]

Trophy counting is always good when you ignore that a player missed 2 and a half Peak years due to injuries.

EDIT: Get your facts straight

I guess Jagr taking off to Europe for 3 years doesn't count....

 

[McFlash97]

Crosby will always be the Goat for me, I’ve been watching him since juniors and followed his whole career from then to now so he will always be the Goat to me.

Of course he would be to you. Fanboys generally overlook real facts and stats. However obvious they may be.

 

[jj cale]

In my experience, most Pens fans I know love Crosby and feel he's been the greatest player in the league for the past decade and will go down as one of the greatest players ever. We've been so fortunate to have him.

All that said, I don't know any that truly believe he's better than Mario was. Especially those of us who remember watching Le Magnifique play. That's not a dig on Crosby, more of just a testament to how great Lemieux really was. To me he was the most physically gifted player ever to lace up skates.

He was, hands down.

 

[Butch 19]

Is this the GOAT thread?

 

[66871]

Mario did get crushed by a peer in his prime though. One in particular...

Taking just the years they played in the league together before Mario's hiatus (84-85 to 96-97) Wayne outscored Mario by 249 points. So yeah, he got crushed. This is taking away the points Wayne had in 94-95 for obvious reasons.

Mario is the only player that ever gets dinged by the presence of Wayne. On the history board I've seen someone chide him for being a 'lesser version of Gretzky". There is no other player who that statement would even apply to.

For other players (prime example being Yzerman) the argument often comes up that they would have had more hardware if they hadn't played in the same era as Mario and Wayne.

 

[NoMessi]

There's no way in hell a prime Lemieux or Gretzky doesn't lap the field or lose a scoring championship to Jamie Benn.

37-year old Lemieux was neck-and-neck with prime Peter Forsberg in PPG.

You are correct, but he also tea baged the whole league before his injuries that season.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I guess Jagr taking off to Europe for 3 years doesn't count....

Was he with Pittsburgh during that time? Nope