Is c>winger argument overrated?

[Caps8112]

You are minimizing Crosby's achievements by not acknowledging that Crosby has garnered as much MVP and Best Player recognition on the strength of his superior Art Ross finishes and all around play.

OV fans can throw out the Rocket Trophy count as much as they want but it in no way makes him better than Crosby. Honestly, do you really want to have to be reminded of OV's 13/14 season? He was not good.

If Rockets = better than any other forward than the Art Ross winner, how do you explain him finishing behind these forwards in Hart votes and Lindsay votes?

17/18 - he was behind Eight other forwards

15/16 - he was behind Three other forwards including Crosby

13/14 - he was behind EIGHTEEN other forwards

I didnt say rockets were better, you did. I was saying finishing top 5 and not winning anything doesnt mean anything. It's another make believe land stat "some" Crosby fans bring up to boost something that is not there much like giving him ppg projections for games he never played. Art ross finishes dont mean anything if you didnt actually win the art ross.

 

[end]

You get put at wing if you have talent enough to play but have weaknesses that could be exploited if you were the pivot. The distinction doesn't come from having more talent with the puck, it's having more responsibility away from it.

We're seeing a lot more examples of the playmaking winger, which may be a realization among coaches that the slick, playmaking forward with defensive lapses is better served playing wing where those weaknesses are covered. In my youth the only example I have is Martin St. Louis, now there are plenty of passing wingers. Martin St. Louis, for the record, almost didn't make the league because coaches didn't know what to make of him.

Art ross finishes dont mean anything if you didnt actually win the art ross.

This is ridiculous. Scoring points don't matter unless you win the scoring title? What kind of lunatic thinks a single Art Ross is superior to over a decade of top ten finishes?

At the point when finishing second don't mean anything, we should probably stop recording the player names of teams who don't make the playoffs. Who played for the 2018 Blues? Doesn't matter!

 

[shtorm2005]

How about 2nd winger get an assist too. His position was to detract/cover a D thus helping goal scored. He was simply doing his duty and wasn't rewarded, while a center get a point simply because he was the one who carried the puck from D zone.

 

[perronist]

The centre of the ice is the hardest part to gain and maintain. If you have a centre who can possess the puck between the hash marks in all three zones then consider yourself lucky. Most players can’t, and I think you’re beginning to see more fluidity in position interchange.

There is no hard and fast rule. On Calgary’s first line, Lindholm usually takes on the defensive responsibilities down low, and Gaudreau takes the centre of the ice in the neutral and attacking zones. Calgary’s defense also is mobile and smart enough for the most part to fulfill some of the centre’s possession breakout functions, but you can tell how much easier a possession centre like Backlund makes it for the rest of the team compared to a guy like Jankowski.

 

[Fantomas]

Assume:

Two players.

Both equal in skill sets.

The center is worth more than the wing.

Example: Henrik Sedin is worth more than Danial Sedin.

Daniel Sedin was the statistically superior player.

 

[ulvvf]

I think wingers are more importent than centers, since they are the ones that makes things happen around the goal, they work harder at both ends. However since most players tend to want to play center (maybe because you get the puck more and get more recognition), the best players tend to be centers.

also i think it is obvious when you look at team success that wingers are more importent.

If both players are equally good, i easily go with the winger hands down.

 

[Midnight Judges]

He is not in the same class so try and make a better argument. Best all time players are all Centers and then Defenseman. Not any winger that I would put in the top 10 all time.

Wow that's a hot take.

 

[daver]

I'll say I misunderstood your previous post or who you were responding too. I agree ovi was not the single most dominant player of his era. You and I wont agree but I believe Crosby and ovi share this title. That said you still try to minimaluze ovis achievements with comments like the bolded. You say they are near identical but they arent. Ovi has 3 harts and 7 rockets. That would be better. It doesnt matter if Crosby finishes top 5. He didnt win. Just as Crosby has 2 ross trophies, ovis almost 2nd ross does not matter, he didnt win it.

I didnt say rockets were better, you did. I was saying finishing top 5 and not winning anything doesnt mean anything. It's another make believe land stat "some" Crosby fans bring up to boost something that is not there much like giving him ppg projections for games he never played. Art ross finishes dont mean anything if you didnt actually win the art ross.

Uhhh.......

"Ovi has 3 harts and 7 rockets. That would be better."

"I didnt say rockets were better"

So which is it? OV's Rocket wins, like Top 3 (not 5) scoring finishes are meaningless if they do not win the Hart or Lindsay.

Or we can apply some meaning to them when they clearly place them among the very best of a season when considering Hart and Lindsay voting?

 

[MartinS82]

How about 2nd winger get an assist too. His position was to detract/cover a D thus helping goal scored. He was simply doing his duty and wasn't rewarded, while a center get a point simply because he was the one who carried the puck from D zone.

Yes, to the more knowledgable hockey fans, a lot of little plays happen that result in a goal: a player driving the net to create space, a screen, or a foward rotating back so a defenseman can pinch up a wall. These plays don't always get points, which is why most agree that you can't judge a player simply on points.

And also if one of my wings said they were "covering a d" while in the offensive zone...well lets just say he's not on my first powerplay unit.

 

[daver]

I think wingers are more importent than centers, since they are the ones that makes things happen around the goal, they work harder at both ends. However since most players tend to want to play center (maybe because you get the puck more and get more recognition), the best players tend to be centers.

also i think it is obvious when you look at team success that wingers are more importent.

If both players are equally good, i easily go with the winger hands down.

Not really sure if you are serious?

Do you think NHL coaches ask for a show of hands of who wants to play centre at the beginning of the season?

 

[MartinS82]

You get put at wing if you have talent enough to play but have weaknesses that could be exploited if you were the pivot. The distinction doesn't come from having more talent with the puck, it's having more responsibility away from it.

We're seeing a lot more examples of the playmaking winger, which may be a realization among coaches that the slick, playmaking forward with defensive lapses is better served playing wing where those weaknesses are covered. In my youth the only example I have is Martin St. Louis, now there are plenty of passing wingers. Martin St. Louis, for the record, almost didn't make the league because coaches didn't know what to make of him.


This is ridiculous. Scoring points don't matter unless you win the scoring title? What kind of lunatic thinks a single Art Ross is superior to over a decade of top ten finishes?

At the point when finishing second don't mean anything, we should probably stop recording the player names of teams who don't make the playoffs. Who played for the 2018 Blues? Doesn't matter!

"If you're not first, you're last"
- Ricky Bobby

 

[MartinS82]

I think wingers are more importent than centers, since they are the ones that makes things happen around the goal, they work harder at both ends. However since most players tend to want to play center (maybe because you get the puck more and get more recognition), the best players tend to be centers.

also i think it is obvious when you look at team success that wingers are more importent.

If both players are equally good, i easily go with the winger hands down.

I would say that you are probably the only person associated with hockey (fan/coach/player) in the world that holds this opinion, but then I see others saying basically the same thing. Can I ask you if you coach anywhere, cause I want to make sure my child never plays on your team.

 

[ulvvf]

Not really sure if you are serious?

Do you think NHL coaches ask for a show of hands of who wants to play centre at the beginning of the season?

I did not say that. But it is no secret that many of the best prospect are centers in juionrs etc but do not make it as centers in NHL.

 

[daver]

I did not say that. But it is no secret that many of the best prospect are centers in juionrs etc but do not make it as centers in NHL.

Like who for example? Not that this shows anything other than some center prospects do not show the defensive aptitude to play center at the NHL level.

 

[ulvvf]

Like who for example? Not that this shows anything other than some center prospects do not show the defensive aptitude to play center at the NHL level.

What is the point of giving example, when you at the same time say it do not matter? Why even ask for examples then? But for example, Nylander, Draisaitl, Lindholm even Malkin has played as winger in NHL.

You argument of why it do not matter is little bit weird. Yes they do not get to play center because they are not good enough in the competition since so many wants to play center, that is a argument for my point not yours. When canada plays, they usually have alot of star centers as wingers.

 

[MartinS82]

I think wingers are more importent than centers, since they are the ones that makes things happen around the goal, they work harder at both ends. However since most players tend to want to play center (maybe because you get the puck more and get more recognition), the best players tend to be centers.

also i think it is obvious when you look at team success that wingers are more importent.

If both players are equally good, i easily go with the winger hands down.

I did not say that. But it is no secret that many of the best prospect are centers in juionrs etc but do not make it as centers in NHL.

When canada plays, they usually have alot of star centers as wingers.

I'll be honest here, your thesis statement of "I think wingers are more importent then centers" isn't really being supported by the rest of your argument.

Also, it is generally understood that centers "work harder at both ends". There are definite exceptions to this (both wingers and centers) but the job description for a center usually requires them to support their defensemen.

 

[hirawl]

Centers have more responsibilities. They have more opportunities to impact a game. They are half the number of wingers. This is not a question.

 

[Dustin]

Centers are easily one of the most sought after positions in the league.

 

[b in vancouver]

He is not in the same class so try and make a better argument. Best all time players are all Centers and then Defenseman. Not any winger that I would put in the top 10 all time. Even the 2nd tier of Centers is better than any winger all time. First tier Centers I have Gretzky, Lemieux, and Crosby. McDavid is on his way to being in that tier. But even players like Forsberg who had a great 200 foot game I would take over any winger all time and Forsberg is most likely some place in the 8-12th best Center all time. Players like Kane would be behind the top 20 Centers and AO behind the top 10.

Gordie Howe.
Bobby Hull.

 

[Caps8112]

Uhhh.......

"Ovi has 3 harts and 7 rockets. That would be better."

"I didnt say rockets were better"

So which is it? OV's Rocket wins, like Top 3 (not 5) scoring finishes are meaningless if they do not win the Hart or Lindsay.

Or we can apply some meaning to them when they clearly place them among the very best of a season when considering Hart and Lindsay voting?

nitpicking again, what are the first four words of my quote above. Combine that with the part about the rockets, now complete that with "that would be better". That was also directly replying to your comment that ovis 3 harts and 7 rockets were equal to Crosbys 3 best ross finishes (not wins, but finishes). No where did I say 7 rockets "alone" were better

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

As a winger I had 2 primary defensive responsibilities- cover the point and pester anyone who cycles up high with the puck. During the breakout I had 2 main options- go up the boards or cut to the center, wherever there's a lane. Offense required a bit more decision making, but it was still pretty straightforward as to what I should do.

Playing C had at least twice as many requirements on D and breakout. Cover the correct offensive player, shift from post to post, watch out for the D sneaking in, facilitate the breakout using 4 different players.. there's just more there to do right or wrong.

That's why C is more valuable, they impact the game more. I put up more points from LW, but playing C I elevated or sunk my line to a much higher degree.