Is c>winger argument overrated?

[daver]

Assume:

Two players.

Both equal in skill sets.

The center is worth more than the wing.

Example: Henrik Sedin is worth more than Danial Sedin.

Disagree, in your example you can substitute the W in for the C and not notice any difference.

 

[daver]

Opinions don’t matter. Awards and domination matter. I doesn’t matter who you think is the better player. He is in fact the most dominant player of this generation wether anyone likes it not.

Please don't tell me you are counting Rocket Richard wins as being more important than Crosby's Top 3 Art Ross wins?

The voting on the AWARDS (Hart and Lindsay) say they are pretty much equal. Thrown in the clear advantage in the playoffs, consideration for games missed, offensive vesratility, and all around play and you have your dominant player.

Not that this has anything to do with the OP to begin with.

 

[BlueBaron]

Marner and Matthews have the same ppg and Matthews does significantly more in the defensive end than Marner. Not sure what you mean by "out producing ".

Marner has better line mates also.

The OP has a pretty weak premise here and picked names to fit.

C do more. While there are some top wingers only a couple are the best players on their team. I can think of 3 Ovie, Kucherov and Johnny Hockey .

Almost 10%.

Hmm.....

 

[Fixxer]

I didn't play hockey, so I could be wrong.
The best kids are possibly going to be the most involved. As a C, you take Face-offs, you are engaged in all 3 zones.
I mean that the best players, growing up, possibly will play this position.
If it is "detrimental" to the person, they may be moved to the wing.
For some, the extra responsibilities might make their offensive game suffer.
The consensus is usually that you need a #1 center, #1 defensemen and a top goalie.
Hockey is about scoring.. so if the winger scores more, down the line, he may be more helpful to the team.

 

[Caps8112]

Please don't tell me you are counting Rocket Richard wins as being more important than Crosby's Top 3 Art Ross wins?

The voting on the AWARDS (Hart and Lindsay) say they are pretty much equal. Thrown in the clear advantage in the playoffs, consideration for games missed, offensive vesratility, and all around play and you have your dominant player.

Not that this has anything to do with the OP to begin with.

3 art ross? 2?

7 rockets (maybe 8) to 2 ross wins.
So the points trophy is important but not the goals trophy.

Can't let go of the bolded

 

[glovesave_35]

People can put too much emphasis on C over W, but I think if you've got two players who are relatively equal in terms of production then most people will rightly come down on the side of the C.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Look what happens whenever Team Canada is picked. Centres are always overrepresented with a number forced to play out of their normal position...They are still better than the alternative of the next best winger, even though they would be playing on the wing.

Whens the last time you saw a winger fill a C spot on any National Team?

 

[ijuka]

Yes, it's very overrated. You're going to have a C on the line anyway.

Blackhawks winning 3 cups should have put this to rest, but somehow Toews gets all the credit.

Look what happens whenever Team Canada is picked. Centres are always overrepresented with a number forced to play out of their normal position...They are still better than the alternative of the next best winger, even though they would be playing on the wing.

Whens the last time you saw a winger fill a C spot on any National Team?

Sebastian Aho?

By the way, that's a "chicken and egg" argument. I'd say that's more because in Canada they believe in having the best player play C. Look at Russian or American national teams, they don't overflow with Cs like that.

 

[daver]

3 art ross? 2?

7 rockets (maybe 8) to 2 ross wins.
So the points trophy is important but not the goals trophy.

Can't let go of the bolded

The goals trophy is only relevant when it has put OV into the discussion as one of the very best players of that season (i.e. Hart/Lindsay wins and nominations) in a similar way that Crosby's Top 3 Art Ross finishes has put him into the same discussion.

Their respective Hart/Lindsay wins and nominations are almost identical despite OV's far superior Rocket wins. OV has one more Hart win vs. Crosby having more Top 5 Hart finishes.

So, no, it is not a FACT that OV is the most dominant player of his era.

 

[Love]

It is the most tired and “overrated” argument out there. It only applies if the centre is better defensively. If the centre is even more careless defensively than the winger, then the fact that they are a centre should actually be held against them rather than be considered a trump card over any and all wingers.

 

[trentmccleary]

It's overrated. Especially when people assume that "similar points, then take the center" is valid.
In Ottawa, our best wingers have arguably been Alfredsson, Hossa and Stone. Our best centers have arguably been Yashin, Spezza and Duchene. Were the numbers close? Yep. Did that make those centers better than those wingers? HELLZ NO!!!

Also note, that the scoring list from 1990-1995 was dominated by centers. But has generally been dominated by wingers ever since.

 

[Channelcat]

C is still a tougher position. Generally you are covering more ice as a C.....although that does seem to be changing.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Wrong, C get more points because of his position on the ice.

What does this even mean?

 

[Caps8112]

The goals trophy is only relevant when it has put OV into the discussion as one of the very best players of that season (i.e. Hart/Lindsay wins and nominations) in a similar way that Crosby's Top 3 Art Ross finishes has put him into the same discussion.

Their respective Hart/Lindsay wins and nominations are almost identical despite OV's far superior Rocket wins. OV has one more Hart win vs. Crosby having more Top 5 Hart finishes.

So, no, it is not a FACT that OV is the most dominant player of his era.

I'll say I misunderstood your previous post or who you were responding too. I agree ovi was not the single most dominant player of his era. You and I wont agree but I believe Crosby and ovi share this title. That said you still try to minimaluze ovis achievements with comments like the bolded. You say they are near identical but they arent. Ovi has 3 harts and 7 rockets. That would be better. It doesnt matter if Crosby finishes top 5. He didnt win. Just as Crosby has 2 ross trophies, ovis almost 2nd ross does not matter, he didnt win it.

 

[shtorm2005]

What does this even mean?

It's rare when center doesn't touch the puck in scored goals, because every zone exit start with him. It's not the same with two wingers. One of them often takes place in front of the net or elsewhere. Although they all spent same energy and need rest after 1min. It looks like center spent more energy, but it's not true, they would be wasted in long term career.

 

[MartinS82]

What does this even mean?

Because Centers (Crosby) only get secondary assists and are propped up by Canadian Media and NBC and Wingers (OV) are the best hockey players because of GOALS.

Just doing my best to translate this argument.

 

[MartinS82]

It's rare when center doesn't touch the puck in scored goals, because every zone exit start with him. It's not the same with two wingers. One of them often takes place in front of the net or elsewhere. Although they all spent same energy and need rest after 1min. It looks like center spent more energy, but it's not true, they would be wasted in long term career.

Did you know that most goals are not scored from a perfectly executed breakout?

Do you believe that D-zone starts are actually going to improve a centers point total?

 

[daver]

I'll say I misunderstood your previous post or who you were responding too. I agree ovi was not the single most dominant player of his era. You and I wont agree but I believe Crosby and ovi share this title. That said you still try to minimaluze ovis achievements with comments like the bolded. You say they are near identical but they arent. Ovi has 3 harts and 7 rockets. That would be better. It doesnt matter if Crosby finishes top 5. He didnt win. Just as Crosby has 2 ross trophies, ovis almost 2nd ross does not matter, he didnt win it.

You are minimizing Crosby's achievements by not acknowledging that Crosby has garnered as much MVP and Best Player recognition on the strength of his superior Art Ross finishes and all around play.

OV fans can throw out the Rocket Trophy count as much as they want but it in no way makes him better than Crosby. Honestly, do you really want to have to be reminded of OV's 13/14 season? He was not good.

If Rockets = better than any other forward than the Art Ross winner, how do you explain him finishing behind these forwards in Hart votes and Lindsay votes?

17/18 - he was behind Eight other forwards

15/16 - he was behind Three other forwards including Crosby

13/14 - he was behind EIGHTEEN other forwards

 

[stepdad gaary]

did you really start your thread with "outside of generational players (mcdavid, Crosby and Mallon) the best players have been wingers?"


thats like saying besides the best players, the best players have been wingers.

 

[Kranix]

How can an argument be overrated

 

[shtorm2005]

Did you know that most goals are not scored from a perfectly executed breakout?

Do you believe that D-zone starts are actually going to improve a centers point total?

Most of goals involve centers as intermediary because they're are puck carriers. Any zone starts will improve centers points total. Simple rule, more you touch the puck better are chances you get a point. And centers have more chances than wingers simply because of their position and duties to cover more ice.

 

[MartinS82]

Most of goals involve centers as intermediary because they're are puck carriers. Any zone starts will improve centers points total. Simple rule, more you touch the puck better are chances you get a point. And centers have more chances than wingers simply because of their position and duties to cover more ice.

Agree with all of this. Centers have the puck more = they get more points. You can also say "better players have the puck more".

 

[easton117]

Put simply. Have you ever heard a gm say they are going to build a team from the wings in?

No. No you have not

 

[shtorm2005]

Agree with all of this. Centers have the puck more = they get more points. You can also say "better players have the puck more".

Yep. Their position helps them to have puck more therefore gets more points.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Wrong, C get more points because of his position on the ice.

You understand the NHL isn't like table top hockey, where the center is the only one who is in the middle of the ice and the wingers are fixed in position along the boards, right?

You also realize that due to their defensive responsibilities, the center generally starts farther back in the defensive zone, thus will usually be the "third man in" on the attack, with the wingers having more chances for quick breaks out of the zone?