Is Barzal 3rd best player from the 2015 draft?

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Let's be real here. You picked Rantanen next because Joe Sakic drafted him.

6'4", 220 lbs, ass like Jagr. You can believe whatever you want.

 

[ManofSteel55]

6'4", 220 lbs, ass like Jagr. You can believe whatever you want.

*he says as if size is more important than actual skill.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

*he says as if size is more important than actual skill.

I mean ...

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Okay who has a better career PPG? Who has the better PPG if you choose any other year but the one you have arbitrarily decided should be the start point for the comparison?

You mentioned Tavares. Who has a better PPG since Marner started playing with him or Matthews?
You guys have Kadri now, I love the player but don’t you think Rants would have a lower PPG if he was his primary center instead of Mack. Because he was Marners primary center in the season you choose to start their comparisons.
The point is if you choose any other point to start their comparison Marner comes out on top but you insist on skewing the stats by picking the only year that favours your guy as the starting point.

In terms of full career, it's Marner. But that's primarily because of their rookie seasons, when one was on a 250 goal scoring playoff team, and the other was on a 165 goal scoring dumpster fire. If you think that's statistically relevant to who the better player is, you're free to pick Marner. I think the context of that season makes it irrelevant, which makes them essentially a wash offensively. This year, when they play completely different opponents, doesn't convince me otherwise.

If you want to argue that 2017-18 is irrelevant because of the linemates, great. So is 2019-20 because of the injuries.. That means we're only looking at 2018-19, and we're talking about a 0.04 difference in PPG for that season, which makes them essentially a wash offensively. And I still take the bigger guy, because that's the only significant difference between them.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

*he says as if size is more important than actual skill.

When there's no quantifiable difference in skill, size is as good a reason as any other.

 

[cyris]

In terms of full career, it's Marner. But that's primarily because of their rookie seasons, when one was on a 250 goal scoring playoff team, and the other was on a 165 goal scoring dumpster fire. If you think that's statistically relevant to who the better player is, you're free to pick Marner. I think the context of that season makes it irrelevant, which makes them essentially a wash offensively. This year, when they play completely different opponents, doesn't convince me otherwise.

If you want to argue that 2017-18 is irrelevant because of the linemates, great. So is 2019-20 because of the injuries.. That means we're only looking at 2018-19, and we're talking about a 0.04 difference in PPG for that season, which makes them essentially a wash offensively. And I still take the bigger guy, because that's the only significant difference between them.

So again let’s ignore any starting point that doesn’t favour your guy right? My entire point was about how you were skewing the stats to favour your player and how obvious it was to everyone else in the thread.

I wasn’t even really trying to say who I think is the superior player. Just pointing out the massive flaws in your argument. But what the hell I will now.

You said in another post is all Leaf fan have to say their guy is better is P/60 but all you seem to have after stripping away your ridiculous skewed starting points for their comparison is that your guy is bigger.
You are free to say you will take your guy because of size. Well I’ll take the guy who has produced more in less ice time and who I see as the superior 2 way player. Yes Rants is bigger but somehow despite that Marner has produced more over their careers in less available ice time.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Obviously. Because hockey is a team sport.

But, when you have players like Marner and Matthews, who are constantly being hyped as "on another level" compared to their peers, actually doing something meaningful in the playoffs (like winning a series) counts for something. Simply leading your team in scoring, while playing 5-7 playoff games a year, isn't all that impressive when the other guys are making it to the 2nd round and putting up as good/better numbers in the process.

Asking a core of rookies and sophomores to knock off President’s trophy winners and legitimate Cup Contenders is a tall task. Washington and Boston were legit teams during Marner’s and Matthews’ first three years in the league. Strength of opponent matters and it’s very rarely actually discussed in the conversations of Leafs recent playoff let downs.

Obviously I’d rather they’d won those series (and I believe they had a legitimate shot in 2019, perhaps if they were better coached and had more maturity), but let’s not act like they were facing middling competition here.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

So again let’s ignore any starting point that doesn’t favour your guy right? My entire point was about how you were skewing the stats to favour your player and how obvious it was to everyone else in the thread.

I wasn’t even really trying to say who I think is the superior player. Just pointing out the massive flaws in your argument. But what the hell I will now.

You said in another post is all Leaf fan have to say their guy is better is P/60 but all you seem to have after stripping away your ridiculous skewed starting points for their comparison is that your guy is bigger.
You are free to say you will take your guy because of size. Well I’ll take the guy who has produced more in less ice time and who I see as the superior 2 way player. Yes Rants is bigger but somehow despite that Marner has produced more over their careers in available ice time.

Does anyone honestly believe that the 2016-17 season proves anything about how good Rantanen is? Seems like Leafs fans only want to include it because it skews the stats in favor of Marner. Same with this season, where they have zero common opponents. How do we compare them in any fair way, when they aren't playing the same opponents? Why include it, other than to make Marner look better?

And, for the like 20th time in this thread, I'm not saying Rantanen is the better player. I'm saying they are close enough where it doesn't matter, and there is no objectively right or wrong choice. But, that got me called a homer and repeatedly chastised for not agreeing that Marner is "clearly" better. If you want to pick Marner, great. He's an amazing player. But so are Eichel, Barzal, Aho and Rantanen. And, as the old saying goes, you can't teach size.

 

[Iapyi]

Why not explain it instead? I wouldn't want to misunderstand all the nuance behind the LOL LOL LOL...

Post 373 is about as clear as it gets. You seem hung up on a comparison between 2 specific players whereas my post is a more all-encompassing general comment, which quite frankly, you are proving my point on.

 

[ijuka]

McDavid is number 1, Marner is number 2. And I don't think that Barzal is number 3. He might not even be top 5.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Asking a core of rookies and sophomores to knock off President’s trophy winners and legitimate Cup Contenders is a tall task. Washington and Boston were legit teams during Marner’s and Matthews’ first three years in the league. Strength of opponent matters and it’s very rarely actually discussed in the conversations of Leafs recent playoff let downs.

Obviously I’d rather they’d won those series (and I believe they had a legitimate shot in 2019, perhaps if they were better coached and had more maturity), but let’s not act like they were facing middling competition here.

I agree that it's a tall task to beat Boston and Washington in the playoffs with a bunch of youngsters. But, Columbus beat Tampa after they dominated the league, so it's also not exactly impossible. And with a couple of "on another level" guys like Marner and Matthews, you'd think they would have at least beaten Columbus last year.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Post 373 is about as clear as it gets. You seem hung up on a comparison between 2 specific players whereas my post is a more all-encompassing general comment, which quite frankly, you are proving my point on.

Here's post 373. Which part of this is "as clear as it gets"? How exactly am I wrong? What part of watching more hockey (which I've been doing for almost 40 years) is going to make me agree that Marner is clearly better? What exactly does LOL LOL LOL LOL add to the clarity of the post?

What a simple and erroneous way to look at things. Simple meaning Wrong in this context.

Suggestion : watch some hockey then one day you might be able to decide all by yourself who deserves/warrants "hype".

btw - what in the world does "hype" have to do with how good a player is? LOL LOL LOL LOL

 

[cyris]

Does anyone honestly believe that the 2016-17 season proves anything about how good Rantanen is? Seems like Leafs fans only want to include it because it skews the stats in favor of Marner. Same with this season, where they have zero common opponents. How do we compare them in any fair way, when they aren't playing the same opponents? Why include it, other than to make Marner look better?

And, for the like 20th time in this thread, I'm not saying Rantanen is the better player. I'm saying they are close enough where it doesn't matter, and there is no objectively right or wrong choice. But, that got me called a homer and repeatedly chastised for not agreeing that Marner is "clearly" better. If you want to pick Marner, great. He's an amazing player. But so are Eichel, Barzal, Aho and Rantanen. And, as the old saying goes, you can't teach size.

Yeah it’s Leaf fans that are trying to skew the stats.....
You know we could just accept that they are the same age, started in the league the same season and they have both gone through injuries and had their own challenges and go based on their careers from the start.

Nah that doesn’t make any sense let’s find some other skewed sample of games that only favours your guy. Who has a better PPG in day games or the second half of back to backs? If it’s Rants that is clearly justification to choose him right.

You aren’t being called a homer for preferring 1 guy over the other. You are being called a homer for using such mental gymnastics in choosing when we should start comparing them to justify it.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Yeah it’s Leaf fans that are trying to skew the stats.....
You know we could just accept that they are the same age, started in the league the same season and they have both gone through injuries and had their own challenges and go based on their careers from the start.

Nah that doesn’t make any sense let’s find some other skewed sample of games that only favours your guy. Who has a better PPG in day games or the second half of back to backs? If it’s Rants that is clearly justification to choose him right.

You aren’t being called a homer for preferring 1 guy over the other. You are being called a homer for using such mental gymnastics in choosing when we should start comparing them to justify it.

Apparently I need to call my old statistics teachers and tell them that everything they taught me about trying to ensure data is relevant is "mental gymnastics", according to some random people on the internet. I'm sure they'll definitely agree with you.

 

[FractionTwo]

Best players from that draft go
1. Mcdavid
2. Marner
3. Eichel
4. Aho
5. Barzal

Barzy is very good, but aho and the rest are clearly another level as of now. If Matt could keep scoring at a consistent rate and actually stay out of the box a little more often, then hes at #3 for sure. Still a very good class to be a part of, and im glad he's the face of the islanders

 

[SensontheRush]

Everyone except the Avs homer believes Marner is more valuable/a better player than Rantanen. Why bother arguing with a brick wall? Surprised this is still going on tbh.

Not like Rantanen's size means much when he doesn't use it to its full potential either.

 

[Iapyi]

Here's post 373. Which part of this is "as clear as it gets"? How exactly am I wrong? What part of watching more hockey (which I've been doing for almost 40 years) is going to make me agree that Marner is clearly better? What exactly does LOL LOL LOL LOL add to the clarity of the post?

Wow. What in the world does Marner have to do with what I'm talking about? Wow.

What in the world does "hype" have to do with how good a player is?

Newsflash! you and I are not talking about the same things. You are wrapped up in a comparison between Marner and Rantanen which has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about. LOL LOL LOL

 

[cyris]

Apparently I need to call my old statistics teachers and tell them that everything they taught me about trying to ensure data is relevant is "mental gymnastics", according to some random people on the internet. I'm sure they'll definitely agree with you.

“Trying to ensure data is relevant” aka arbitrarily picking the only season that favours your player to start the comparison.

Even in a normal season they play in different conferences against different competition with different linemates, different QoC within games and different TOI. There is never going to be a completely accurate 1/1 comparison of them.
There is no reason to pick the season you insist we do other than the fact that it is the only one that favours your player.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Wow. What in the world does Marner have to do with what I'm talking about? Wow.

What in the world does "hype" have to do with how good a player is?

Newsflash! you and I are not talking about the same things. You are wrapped up in a comparison between Marner and Rantanen which has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about. LOL LOL LOL

I'm still not sure what you're talking about in the first place, so still can't answer that question. You jumped into a conversation about Matthews and Marner, told me I'm wrong, to watch hockey and LOLed your way out, without once explaining why I'm wrong or what I'm supposed to look for that proves just how good Matthews and Marner are and I was supposed to understand that you weren't talking about Marner? Are you kidding me? Where exactly do you get that?

And, when players are claimed to be "clearly" the best player behind McDavid, but the numbers don't back up the claims, that is called "hype". When the claims and reality don't match up, that is calling "not living up to the hype". Do I need to explain it more, or should I tell you to look at some vague post and tell you to figure it out by yourself?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

“Trying to ensure data is relevant” aka arbitrarily picking the only season that favours your player to start the comparison.

Even in a normal season they play in different conferences against different competition with different linemates, different QoC within games and different TOI. There is never going to be a completely accurate 1/1 comparison of them.
There is no reason to pick the season you insist we do other than the fact that it is the only one that favours your player.

I tried to look at a 3 season stretch (2017-18 through 2019-2020 - about 200 games each with nearly identical PPGs in the regular season), eliminating the season when they weren't both on a playoff team, and the season when they have ZERO common opponents, but Leafs fans whined that that's not fair because "MacKinnon", while ignoring the fact the Leafs were the higher scoring and higher finishing team pretty much every year. Should we all be forced to pretend that there is no difference between being on a 250 goal scoring playoff team and being on a 165 goal scoring dumpster fire, because it makes Marner look better? And forced to pretend that it's not absolutely pointless to try to compare stats across divisions this season, because that also makes Marner look better? Or should we ignore 2017-18 when Marner was on the higher scoring team and led the Leafs in scoring, because that makes Marner look better overall?

And, since you admit that there's never going to be a "completely accurate 1/1 comparison of them", then what exactly makes Marner "clearly" better? Either there's objective proof that he's "clearly" better, or it's a completely subjective choice based purely on opinion. I'm still not seeing any objective proof being offered up, despite asking for it multiple times, which means it must be purely subjective and there is no wrong choice. Which is exactly what I've been saying since my first post in this thread. I picked Rantanen due to him being the biggest, which is literally the only difference anyone can actually prove exists.

So, unless you have some objective proof that Marner is "clearly" better, I don't know why you're jumping down my throat pretending I'm wrong.

 

[NK94]

ELC years:

Marner: 67 goals, 224 points in 241 games played (0.28 goals/games played, 0.93 PPG).
Rantanen: 80 goals, 209 points in 230 games played (0.35 goals/games played, 0.91 PPG).



Since both signed new deals?

Marner: 26 goals, 100 points and counting in 82 games (0.32 goals/games played, 1.21 PPG)
Rantanen: 27 goals, 59 points and counting in 61 games (0.44 goals/games played, 0.96 PPG)


Kind of like Rantanen has always been the better goal scorer and Marner has been the better player the entire f***ing time. Sure the Leafs haven't made it past the first round, but Marner isn't a reason why they haven't. This place talks like the Leafs are first in their division every year only to lose first round.

 

[cyris]

I tried to look at a 3 season stretch (2017-18 through 2019-2020 - about 200 games each with nearly identical PPGs in the regular season), eliminating the season when they weren't both on a playoff team, and the season when they have ZERO common opponents, but Leafs fans whined that that's not fair because "MacKinnon", while ignoring the fact the Leafs were the higher scoring and higher finishing team pretty much every year. Should we all be forced to pretend that there is no difference between being on a 250 goal scoring playoff team and being on a 165 goal scoring dumpster fire, because it makes Marner look better? And forced to pretend that it's not absolutely pointless to try to compare stats across divisions this season, because that also makes Marner look better? Or should we ignore 2017-18 when Marner was on the higher scoring team and led the Leafs in scoring, because that makes Marner look better overall?

And, since you admit that there's never going to be a "completely accurate 1/1 comparison of them", then what exactly makes Marner "clearly" better? Either there's objective proof that he's "clearly" better, or it's a completely subjective choice based purely on opinion. I'm still not seeing any objective proof being offered up, despite asking for it multiple times, which means it must be purely subjective and there is no wrong choice. Which is exactly what I've been saying since my first post in this thread. I picked Rantanen due to him being the biggest, which is literally the only difference anyone can actually prove exists.

So, unless you have some objective proof that Marner is "clearly" better, I don't know why you're jumping down my throat pretending I'm wrong.

I guess all I have as objective fact is the fact that in their careers Marner has produced more points, a better career PPG, and if you compare P/60 Marner comes out way ahead.
But I guess non of that matters. Rants is taller

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I guess all I have as objective fact is the fact that in their careers Marner has produced more points, a better career PPG, and if you compare P/60 Marner comes out way ahead.
But I guess non of that matters. Rants is taller

And I have the objective facts that Marner has played more games and didn't play on a dumpster fire in his rookie season and Rantanen has the significantly higher PPG in the playoffs. But, I guess none of that matters. Marner is a Leaf.

 

[The Assclown]

Best players from that draft go
1. Mcdavid
2. Marner
3. Eichel
4. Aho
5. Barzal

Barzy is very good, but aho and the rest are clearly another level as of now. If Matt could keep scoring at a consistent rate and actually stay out of the box a little more often, then hes at #3 for sure. Still a very good class to be a part of, and im glad he's the face of the islanders

Agree with this, but I still don't think I'd put Marner ahead of Eichel at this point.

 

[FractionTwo]

Agree with this, but I still don't think I'd put Marner ahead of Eichel at this point.

im slowly gonna rank marner over eichel if eichel doesn't start to take leadership