Is Barkov leading Selke race?

[East Coast Icestyle]

I think 2007 was a good example of that, at least in my opinion. Pahlsson, to me, was the best defensive forward in the league that year. Brind'Amour is the one who took home the Selke. So what was the difference? Offense. Pahlsson was a beast defensively, and there is no one I would have rather had on the ice to shutdown the opposing players, but his 26 points just couldn't compete with Brind'Amour's 82 points. Admittedly, that's a huge gap offensively, but if the award was just about defense, that gap would have been irrelevant.

Following that, Datsyuk went on his Selke run. Again, putting up terrific offensive numbers while playing great defensively.

It's not really a changing point though. Yzerman won the selke. Gilmore won it with 127 points one year. I think it's always been about all around play and looking at the low scoring defensive players they were just so much above the rest of the league.

 

[rinne]

I think it's reasonable to expect a Selke winner to not be 3rd on his own team in total defensive zone faceoffs taken (and be significantly above the 44.7% he currently sits at there). He belongs in the conversation, but that's a pretty gaping hole in his game he needs to fix before being considered one of the truly elite (as in, Bergeron every other year but this one).

Barkov is hurt by playing with Jagr this year. For some reason they are not ready to take Jagr of the Barkov's wing. And you can't seriously expect Jagr to be used defensively that much. Barkov is still without the doubt the best defensive forward in Panthers no matter how they use him. I do admit that he has to get better at face offs but that shouldn't be too big of problem since many players have learnt them later on their careers. Still I see him as top3 in Selke race currently, mostly because of down years from Bergeron and Kopitar.

Because arguing anyone in 2013 especially Wennberg is on equal footing is ridiculous.

Almost but not exactly. I do think that currently Barkov is #1 from 2013 draft but there is argument to be made for Ristolainen and some could still argue even for MacKinnon or Jones too. I believe that Barkov, Jones, MacKinnon or Ristolainen will be seen as the best player of the draft. I do agree tho that saying Wennberg is as good as Barkov is undervaluing Barkov massively.

 

[Sojourn]

It's not really a changing point though. Yzerman won the selke. Gilmore won it with 127 points one year. I think it's always been about all around play and looking at the low scoring defensive players they were just so much above the rest of the league.

That's a fair point. Maybe it's just recency bias making it feel that way.

 

[Sojourn]

Barkov is hurt by playing with Jagr this year. For some reason they are not ready to take Jagr of the Barkov's wing. And you can't seriously expect Jagr to be used defensively that much. Barkov is still without the doubt the best defensive forward in Panthers no matter how they use him. I do admit that he has to get better at face offs but that shouldn't be too big of problem since many players have learnt them later on their careers. Still I see him as top3 in Selke race currently, mostly because of down years from Bergeron and Kopitar.

If they wanted him on the ice for those defensive zone situations, odds are they'd get him on the ice. It's not uncommon for coaches to throw a favored center onto the ice for a D-zone face-off, even if it isn't with his normal linemates. If a coach isn't putting him out there, it's a good bet he just isn't seen as the best option.

He may deserve to be in the top 3, but I just don't see how he'd be ahead of Kesler right now. One of them is trusted in any and all key defensive situations, and one of them is not.

 

[FLpanthers16]

If they wanted him on the ice for those defensive zone situations, odds are they'd get him on the ice. It's not uncommon for coaches to throw a favored center onto the ice for a D-zone face-off, even if it isn't with his normal linemates. If a coach isn't putting him out there, it's a good bet he just isn't seen as the best option.

Rowe has gotten some kind of idea that playing Trocheck more is a good idea for some reason, and yet Barkov outproduces him by alot.


And alot of has to do with Jagr's age ofc, hes not going to play 20+ that many times in a year anymore also why Barkov gets the less d-zone faceoffs. Bc hes still our best defensive player by miles.


Ofc hes trusted in all situations, Barkov out there with 1 minutes left up 1 is the best way to go, Hes elite in almost every aspect outside of the FO.

 

[East Coast Icestyle]

That's a fair point. Maybe it's just recency bias making it feel that way.

Most awards have varied history and when history is used to prove a point so much, things get lost.

 

[Sojourn]

Rowe has gotten some kind of idea that playing Trocheck more is a good idea for some reason, and yet Barkov outproduces him by alot.


And alot of has to do with Jagr's age ofc, hes not going to play 20+ that many times in a year anymore also why Barkov gets the less d-zone faceoff. Bc hes still our best defensive player by miles.


Ofc hes trusted in all situations, Barkov out there with 1 minutes left up 1 is the best way to go, Hes elite in almost every aspect outside of the FO.

Can you find a single Selke winner in the past 20 years, who was a center, who didn't have great face-off numbers?

As DVM said, it's a trainable skill, which is great news for Barkov, but until those numbers turn around for him, they will hurt his chances.

 

[FLpanthers16]

Can you find a single Selke winner in the past 20 years, who was a center, who didn't have great face-off numbers?

As DVM said, it's a trainable skill, which is great news for Barkov, but until those numbers turn around for him, they will hurt his chances.

Im not saying that hes going to win it this year just pointing out that hes elite pretty much outside of the FO's, and like i said it's something that needs work.

 

[rinne]

If they wanted him on the ice for those defensive zone situations, odds are they'd get him on the ice. It's not uncommon for coaches to throw a favored center onto the ice for a D-zone face-off, even if it isn't with his normal linemates. If a coach isn't putting him out there, it's a good bet he just isn't seen as the best option.

He may deserve to be in the top 3, but I just don't see how he'd be ahead of Kesler right now. One of them is trusted in any and all key defensive situations, and one of them is not.

Come on. We are talking about Panthers team that is coached by Rowe. After everything we have seen since last season you still expect some sort of logic in their decision making?

Barkov is without the doubt the best player in Panthers, defensively and offensively. His only fault is that he is not good at FO and because they want Jagr to play with him all the time Barkov isn't in the ice as much as he should. Like someone stated, for some reason Rowe has been playing Trocheck more than Barkov. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that Tro is better than Barkov, especially in the defensive side of the game?

And I agree with Kesler being the front runner right now.

 

[FlaPanthers11]

If they wanted him on the ice for those defensive zone situations, odds are they'd get him on the ice. It's not uncommon for coaches to throw a favored center onto the ice for a D-zone face-off, even if it isn't with his normal linemates. If a coach isn't putting him out there, it's a good bet he just isn't seen as the best option.

He may deserve to be in the top 3, but I just don't see how he'd be ahead of Kesler right now. One of them is trusted in any and all key defensive situations, and one of them is not.

The Panthers named a guy their captain for this exact role, and no, he isn't better than Barkov at it. The Panthers just do everything differently.

 

[Regal]

I still think lots of people are looking at offense the wrong way. There's certainly been players who aren't top producers who have won the award or placed very highly. Based on voting trends and interviews/articles from the media who vote on the award, it seems pretty clear the voters aren't using points as a deciding factor for who to vote for. They're not looking at it as a player hasn't scored enough to win, or voting for a guy they don't think has been the best defensively because he's outscored the guy they do by too much. It's that offense and the stat sheet makes players stand out and get these guys to take notice of their seasons. Players with a defensive reputation will be considered to be having a great season due to their offense and the assumption is naturally that this mirrors their all around game.

 

[Sojourn]

Im not saying that hes going to win it this year just pointing out that hes elite pretty much outside of the FO's, and like i said it's something that needs work.

Fair enough. That just happens to be an important skill that he isn't elite in. He's a big, strong kid, with terrific hands. It will come. I just have a hard time seeing him win the Selke without being at least around 52% or so in the dot.

 

[Sojourn]

Come on. We are talking about Panthers team that is coached by Rowe. After everything we have seen since last season you still expect some sort of logic in their decision making?

Barkov is without the doubt the best player in Panthers, defensively and offensively. His only fault is that he is not good at FO and because they want Jagr to play with him all the time Barkov isn't in the ice as much as he should. Like someone stated, for some reason Rowe has been playing Trocheck more than Barkov. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that Tro is better than Barkov, especially in the defensive side of the game?

And I agree with Kesler being the front runner right now.

Again, how many Selke winners can you name who weren't great in the face-off dot?

Wingers being excluded.

If Barkov was dominating in the face-off circle, I'd be willing to bet that Rowe would be more inclined to have him on the ice for those situations. A center can be great defensively, even better defensively than another, and still not be the best choice for a defensive zone draw if he isn't winning them. The best way to play defense off a D-zone face-off is to win the face-off, and control the puck.

Edit: And no, I'm not suggesting that Trocheck is better defensively. However, without looking at the statistics, I'd bet good money that he's better in the dot.

 

[Semantics]

Kadri is the arguable front runner right now, he's on pace to put up elite 2C offensive numbers while being used exclusively in a shutdown role.

 

[Sojourn]

Kadri is the arguable front runner right now, he's on pace to put up elite 2C offensive numbers while being used exclusively in a shutdown role.

Kadri would be solidly behind Kesler too.

A lot can change, but it's hard to argue against Kesler at this point in the season.

 

[walle]

https://twitter.com/IneffectiveMath/status/811242140789514240

 

[Sojourn]

https://twitter.com/IneffectiveMath/status/811242140789514240

That account's name is accurate.

 

[Super Hans]

Kadri is the arguable front runner right now, he's on pace to put up elite 2C offensive numbers while being used exclusively in a shutdown role.

While Kadri has impressed me this year with his 2-way play, I highly doubt he'll get much consideration with his 47% FO percentage and 1:07 total (not per game) PK minutes. Also, Kesler has won 20 more DZ faceoffs (182 out of 317) than Kadri has total DZ faceoffs (162).

If Kadri keeps it up, he'll get a bunch of 4th and 5th place votes, maybe a few 2nd and 3rd, but even as of now, he's not in the top 3. The lack of PK time is really going to hurt him.

 

[East Coast Icestyle]

While Kadri has impressed me this year with his 2-way play, I highly doubt he'll get much consideration with his 47% FO percentage and 1:07 total (not per game) PK minutes. Also, Kesler has won 20 more DZ faceoffs (182 out of 317) than Kadri has total DZ faceoffs (162).

If Kadri keeps it up, he'll get a bunch of 4th and 5th place votes, maybe a few 2nd and 3rd, but even as of now, he's not in the top 3. The lack of PK time is really going to hurt him.

Yikes, those are some pretty damning numbers.

 

[rinne]

Again, how many Selke winners can you name who weren't great in the face-off dot?

Wingers being excluded.

If Barkov was dominating in the face-off circle, I'd be willing to bet that Rowe would be more inclined to have him on the ice for those situations. A center can be great defensively, even better defensively than another, and still not be the best choice for a defensive zone draw if he isn't winning them. The best way to play defense off a D-zone face-off is to win the face-off, and control the puck.

Edit: And no, I'm not suggesting that Trocheck is better defensively. However, without looking at the statistics, I'd bet good money that he's better in the dot.

That is one of the problems with Panthers currently. There is no-one who can be put to ice and expect him to win that draw. I think this season MacKenzie is the best at FO-circle with 50 % but he isn't on the ice to take those face-offs. It is Trocheck who is a little better at FO:s than Barkov but also under 50 %. So yeah, Tro has been little better at FO but if your theory was correct it would be MacKenzie who is taking those FO:s in the D-zone. For some reason it is Tro this year in Rowe's books which makes no sense. If Trocheck was significantly better than Barkov at FO:s I would see why to put him there. But he is not that good and Barkov is miles ahead of Trocheck when it comes to defensive situation after the lost FO.

And again, I'm not arguing that Barkov should win Selke this season. I am arguing that the usage of Barkov this season has more to do with Rowe's than Barkov's capabilities. If it was just about FO:s, MacKenzie would take those. Also because TOI of Trocheck is 21.20 compared to Barkov's 19.28 this season there really is reason to believe that currently the best player is not used in the best possible way on the Panthers team.

But I guess that is enough of that subject in this thread. We agree that Barkov is not the likely Selke-winner this year, at least partly because of his FO %. We just see the reason of Barkov's use to be different. I strongly believe it is because incompetence of Rowe or the Panther's office.

And no, Kadri is not the front runner for Selke currently.

 

[TheStatican]

"The Frank J. Selke Trophy is an annual award given to the forward who best excels in the defensive aspects of the game."

No mention of offense. So, voters who use that as a criteria are not doing it right, in my opinion.

Well then you better go tell them that, because apparently they've been doing it wrong for the awards entire existence.

 

[authentic]

Kadri is the arguable front runner right now, he's on pace to put up elite 2C offensive numbers while being used exclusively in a shutdown role.

I don't see it. He simply hasn't been the best defensive forward in the NHL, probably not top 5 either.