Classicnamesup
MVP Backhand Slapper
Carolinas identity conveniently dodged this question more than once. Just wants to complain about those mean, evil Canadians.
Is Atlanta's SE Division title banner hanging in the MTS Center?
- Thread starter Carolinas Identity*
- Start date
Carolinas identity conveniently dodged this question more than once. Just wants to complain about those mean, evil Canadians.
Hennessy
Ye Jacobites, by name
I don't know what's so difficult about this for some people to understand. As a fan, have whatever personal history you want. But don't try to make that apply to the technicalities of fact.
Shakey Rustie
Smile
garnetpalmetto
Jerkministrator
Crocoduck
Registered User
Lunatik
Registered User
- Oct 12, 2012
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You do realize Carolina's Identity is Canadian right? IIRC he was born in Canada and currently resides in Canada
mouser
Business of Hockey
If the fans had voted to name the relocated Atlanta team the Moose or Bears or something else, would it still be the same damn team?
Or is it only because the fans wanted the Jets name that it's the same damn team?
The Jets are the Jets to me. Phoenix fans can pretend to own the history. But if they had any honor they'd give it back. Just like we would give back Altantas if they ever got another team. Keeping any of that history for your own is just cheating yourself. Sure it might exist in the record books but it has to feel some kind of rotten to pretend like it was yours.
This isn't hard. The Coyotes used to be called the Jets and the Thrashers used to be called the Jets. Two different teams. All I know is Arizona has Hull and Hawerchuk's numbers up there. I don't think this is a Cleveland Browns type situation.
Carolinas Identity*
I'm a bad troll...
this is true on all counts
born in montréal & live in calgary
i am a dual citizen and consider myself american
but i am still a canadian
also, didn't dodge the question, like garnett said, he already answered it
TheTakedown
Puck is Life
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Luigi Lemieux
Registered User
- Sep 26, 2003
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If they had honor they'd give it back? This seems a bit delusional. What actually happened is real history. The current Jets is a continuation of the Thrashers franchise. You can still celebrate what guys like Selanne did in your city, but that was for a different franchise.
Mr Positive
Cap Crunch Incoming
- Nov 20, 2013
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The really odd thing about it is that Arizona wasn't really greedy in paying homage to the Jets, and Stars weren't greedy doing so with the North Stars. If anything, it was a noble act, and maybe teams like the Avalanche are the greedy ones for washing away their Nordique heritage. But ultimately the teams can do what they want if they paid for it. And of course, the fans of the current Jets can still remember the old Jets, and they can also acknowledge the Thrashers. The Coyotes can still maintain their ties with the old Jets too. It's a bit complicated, but I actually find that complication appealing. It shows off the history of teams, rather than just rewriting things.
I don't think so. Most Winnipeg fans don't run around talking about the glory days of Kovalchuk, aside from a few Trashers fans that converted and that is fine. They can keep that history as a piece of the franchise they continue to follow. But anyone that was a Jets fan before they moved is basically picking up where the old Jets left off.
I actually started a thread of 1.0/20, just 2.0 and Jets/Thrashers records that I keep up to date at the end of every season.
The Coyotes can continue to pretend like they experienced any of that history pre-move because they have absolutely no actual pre-move history but I'd feel like I'm just cheating myself if I did that. It's not unheard of to give history back to a team that has moved back. If they did it, it would be a massive gesture of goodwill towards Jets fans. But I'm going to assume they never will. They'd like to keep pretending like the old Jets mean something to their fanbase. Which probably could care less.
Fighter of Foo
Registered User
I think the issues is only confused b/c this is one of the few times that a expansion or relocated franchise took the name of a previous team in the city that the play in.
For fans, memories will stretch back to whomever was playing there while a person was alive, but records are tied to franchises, not locations and that's determined by the ruling authority of the leagues themselves & their respective policies. There are only a couple of deviations from this rule:
1) The Cleveland Browns - part of the agreement for Art Modell to move the original Browns to Baltimore was that the history & records of the Browns stay in Cleveland and that the new Baltimore Ravens would be treated as an expansion franchise. This was the first time an agreement like this had occurred.
2) The Seattle Supersonics - part of the agreement to move the team to Oklahoma City was that the name, logos, history, & records of the Sonics would remain in Seattle. The Thunder are considered an expansion franchise, and the history of the Sonics is awaiting an expansion or relocated franchise to take up its reigns.
3) Charlotte Hornets / New Orleans Pelicans / Charlotte Bobcats - when the original Hornets moved to New Orleans, the whole franchise records & history moved. Charlotte was later awarded an expansion franchise that started play in 2004. When the New Orleans Hornets re-branded as the Pelicans in 2014, the Bobcats filed with the league to re-brand as the Hornets. The NBA owners collectively approved both franchise re-brandings and awarded the prior history of the Hornets to the Charlotte franchise. So officially, the Charlotte Hornets were retconned to exist from 1988 to 2002, have suspended operations from 2002 to 2004, then exist again from 2004 to today. The New Orleans Pelicans are considered to be an expansion franchise that began in 2002. This was the first time this happened in the 4 major leagues.
In the past, the records and history always went with the franchise. The MLB had a similar situation to this in the 1st AL expansion in 1961, when the Original Washington Senators moved to Minneapolis and became the Twins. At first an expansion franchise was awarded to Minneapolis, but the Senators owner Cavlin Griffith petitioned the American League to let him move the Senators to Minneapolis and give Washington DC the expansion team. The AL agreed, and the history/records/etc of the Senators moved up to Minnesota. The Twins are considered the original AL franchise including all their World Series championships & individual awards, not the new Senators (who moved to Arlington for the 1972 season and became the Texas Rangers).
Other MLB franchises have moved multiple times and had expansion teams take up residence in their old locations, yet the history and records always moved with the team. The A's were in Kansas City from 1955 to 1967, but their history wasn't taken or celebrated by the Royals who started play in the 1969 season & the Phillies don't claim any of the Philadelphia Athletics history either (even though the A's have the most championships in Philly sports history, and they haven't played there since 1954). The Braves played in Milwaukee from 1953 to 1965 (winning the 1957 World Series), yet the Brewers (moved from Seattle in 1971) never claimed any of that history and the Red Sox don't claim any of the Boston Braves history either. The Mets started play in 1962 and claimed none of the history of the Giants or Dodgers, but carried the mantle of National League baseball in NYC.
The NBL/ABA/NBA didn't leave the history behind in any city when teams moved besides #2 & #3 above. For example, the Warriors records (including Chamberlain's 100 point game) went from Philly to the Bay Area w/ the team & the 76ers started from scratch.
The NFL/AFL has had a ton of franchise moves, and the only time anything stayed behind was the case of the Cleveland Browns.
As for the NHL, the league recognizes that the records and history stay with the franchise, regardless of where it has been located. The fans might have ties to an older franchise that used to play there, but this is unofficial and non-binding. The franchise has the right to honor and respect the prior records and history of the franchise from any of its locations, but that's up to the current owners to do so. The Coyotes & Stars have retired numbers from players in their old cities; the Devils have paintings in their arena showing their former homes in KC, Denver, & the Meadowlands; and the Canes and Avs don't have any relic from their previous homes that I know of. So yes, to a fan, Selanne's 76 goal rookie season is a Jets record, but that's a Coyotes franchise stat. The current iteration of the Winnipeg Jets franchise goal mark was set by Kovalchuk while the franchise operated in Atlanta. This is objective fact as set forward by the NHL.
The only way that this would change is if the current Jets owners petition the league to transfer the history of the Winnipeg Jets from the Arizona Coyotes to the current Jets, retroactively making the Arizona Coyotes as an expansion team that began play in 1996; the Jets be an WHA franchise from 1972-1979, an NHL franchise from 1979-1996, have suspended operations from 1996-2011, and be an active NHL franchise from 2011-present; and the Atlanta Thrashers be an expansion team that played from 1999-2011 and has currently suspended their operations or had their franchise revoked. There would likely have to be some kind of agreement/settlement between the 2 franchise owners (Arizona & Winnipeg) in order for this to happen and some kind of agreement to honor the orphan Atlanta history/records by the league.
For fans, memories will stretch back to whomever was playing there while a person was alive, but records are tied to franchises, not locations and that's determined by the ruling authority of the leagues themselves & their respective policies. There are only a couple of deviations from this rule:
1) The Cleveland Browns - part of the agreement for Art Modell to move the original Browns to Baltimore was that the history & records of the Browns stay in Cleveland and that the new Baltimore Ravens would be treated as an expansion franchise. This was the first time an agreement like this had occurred.
2) The Seattle Supersonics - part of the agreement to move the team to Oklahoma City was that the name, logos, history, & records of the Sonics would remain in Seattle. The Thunder are considered an expansion franchise, and the history of the Sonics is awaiting an expansion or relocated franchise to take up its reigns.
3) Charlotte Hornets / New Orleans Pelicans / Charlotte Bobcats - when the original Hornets moved to New Orleans, the whole franchise records & history moved. Charlotte was later awarded an expansion franchise that started play in 2004. When the New Orleans Hornets re-branded as the Pelicans in 2014, the Bobcats filed with the league to re-brand as the Hornets. The NBA owners collectively approved both franchise re-brandings and awarded the prior history of the Hornets to the Charlotte franchise. So officially, the Charlotte Hornets were retconned to exist from 1988 to 2002, have suspended operations from 2002 to 2004, then exist again from 2004 to today. The New Orleans Pelicans are considered to be an expansion franchise that began in 2002. This was the first time this happened in the 4 major leagues.
In the past, the records and history always went with the franchise. The MLB had a similar situation to this in the 1st AL expansion in 1961, when the Original Washington Senators moved to Minneapolis and became the Twins. At first an expansion franchise was awarded to Minneapolis, but the Senators owner Cavlin Griffith petitioned the American League to let him move the Senators to Minneapolis and give Washington DC the expansion team. The AL agreed, and the history/records/etc of the Senators moved up to Minnesota. The Twins are considered the original AL franchise including all their World Series championships & individual awards, not the new Senators (who moved to Arlington for the 1972 season and became the Texas Rangers).
Other MLB franchises have moved multiple times and had expansion teams take up residence in their old locations, yet the history and records always moved with the team. The A's were in Kansas City from 1955 to 1967, but their history wasn't taken or celebrated by the Royals who started play in the 1969 season & the Phillies don't claim any of the Philadelphia Athletics history either (even though the A's have the most championships in Philly sports history, and they haven't played there since 1954). The Braves played in Milwaukee from 1953 to 1965 (winning the 1957 World Series), yet the Brewers (moved from Seattle in 1971) never claimed any of that history and the Red Sox don't claim any of the Boston Braves history either. The Mets started play in 1962 and claimed none of the history of the Giants or Dodgers, but carried the mantle of National League baseball in NYC.
The NBL/ABA/NBA didn't leave the history behind in any city when teams moved besides #2 & #3 above. For example, the Warriors records (including Chamberlain's 100 point game) went from Philly to the Bay Area w/ the team & the 76ers started from scratch.
The NFL/AFL has had a ton of franchise moves, and the only time anything stayed behind was the case of the Cleveland Browns.
As for the NHL, the league recognizes that the records and history stay with the franchise, regardless of where it has been located. The fans might have ties to an older franchise that used to play there, but this is unofficial and non-binding. The franchise has the right to honor and respect the prior records and history of the franchise from any of its locations, but that's up to the current owners to do so. The Coyotes & Stars have retired numbers from players in their old cities; the Devils have paintings in their arena showing their former homes in KC, Denver, & the Meadowlands; and the Canes and Avs don't have any relic from their previous homes that I know of. So yes, to a fan, Selanne's 76 goal rookie season is a Jets record, but that's a Coyotes franchise stat. The current iteration of the Winnipeg Jets franchise goal mark was set by Kovalchuk while the franchise operated in Atlanta. This is objective fact as set forward by the NHL.
The only way that this would change is if the current Jets owners petition the league to transfer the history of the Winnipeg Jets from the Arizona Coyotes to the current Jets, retroactively making the Arizona Coyotes as an expansion team that began play in 1996; the Jets be an WHA franchise from 1972-1979, an NHL franchise from 1979-1996, have suspended operations from 1996-2011, and be an active NHL franchise from 2011-present; and the Atlanta Thrashers be an expansion team that played from 1999-2011 and has currently suspended their operations or had their franchise revoked. There would likely have to be some kind of agreement/settlement between the 2 franchise owners (Arizona & Winnipeg) in order for this to happen and some kind of agreement to honor the orphan Atlanta history/records by the league.
SoupaTroupa
WHY NOT US?
IMO they should celebrate only the thing that happened for the Winnipeg Jets, either the old or the new. IMO they are both the same team.
Winnipeg should have nothing to do with anything that happened since the team moved to Arizona as well as anything that happened in Atlanta prior to moving to Winnipeg.
Winnipeg should have nothing to do with anything that happened since the team moved to Arizona as well as anything that happened in Atlanta prior to moving to Winnipeg.
Carolinas Identity*
I'm a bad troll...
is there a reason the nhl won't xfer records of relocated teams back to them if they get a new team?
i was unawares of that
i know for example after the hornets moved to louisiana
after they changed their name to the pelicans, the bobcats were allowed to take back ownership of all the old hornets records after they changed their name back to the hornets
i was unawares of that
i know for example after the hornets moved to louisiana
after they changed their name to the pelicans, the bobcats were allowed to take back ownership of all the old hornets records after they changed their name back to the hornets
Finlandia WOAT
js7.4x8fnmcf5070124
- May 23, 2010
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'Canes use the same goal horn that was used in Hartford Civic Center.
As for other "relics"....
That said, the Hurricanes are a weird one. Technically, the Whalers logo and trademark remained with the city of Hartford, while the history went with Carolina, and the 'Canes only really mention their history when it comes to records (for example, Victor Rask set the record for point streak to start the season with 8 for the Hurricanes- but the overall record is with Francis back in the '80's).
mouser
Business of Hockey
I'm not completely sure that's the case. Per trademark filings, ownership of the Hartford Whalers logo and US trademark was transferred from Karmanos' ownership group to the NHL after they moved. There were reports of an agreement between the NHL and Hartford that the NHL wouldn't use the name Whalers in another city, but that's not the same as Hartford taking ownership of the logo or trademark.
The NHL let the trademark registration lapse since then however, and it no longer shows as active. Some small apparel company recently filed a US trademark request for the name, though it's not clear if they tried to claim the logo as well, and the filing is recent enough that it could be contested in the future.
The Canadian trademark registration for the Whalers remains active, though it's not obvious to me who is in control of it. All the database entries seem to show the original registrations as coming from the Whalers ownership entity in the 1980's. Since then a law firm specializing in IP has been listed as the service representative for the trademark. That firm could be operating on behalf of just about anyone (including the NHL).
The interesting thing is we have banners that reflect the old Jets and the NHL allowed us to have an Alumni game that featured alumni from the old Jets and none from the Thrashers. We also own all the old Jets logos and name rights. Literally the only thing the Yotes have is the records and stats.
I suspect if you google the Hartford Wolf*Pack vis a vis the mid-season swap over to the Connecticut Whale in 2010-2012 ending with the reverting back to the Wolf*Pack moniker before 2012-13 and to answer the trademark question it's former Penguins/Whalers executive/owner Howard Baldwin who likely holds that trademark....
the reason why it's back to Wolf*Pack is the Rangers weren't paid by Whalers Sports and Entertainment through a contract that commenced 11/26/10.... Apparently MSG was owed 3 Million dollars and Whalers Sports/Entertainment faced at least 15 legal cases, the only reason why they became the Whale is to honor the Whalers and the outdoor "Whale Bowl" vs. Providence held @ Rentschler Field (U-CONN's football stadium/another MSG owned property.
the Whale debuted in the NWHL, but has no connection w/ the CT Whale as explained above.
