In your opinion what is holding Jack Eichel back?

[tsujimoto74]

He needs a supporting cast that actually supports him. Early in the season, when the team was rolling and other lines were chipping in offensively, Eichel was dominating and playing the best 200' game we've seen from him. Now that whether we can win any given game is back to whether Eichel can be better than the entire other team, we're seeing him get frustrated and trying to force things at times.

 

[explore]

I think Eichel has to become a more selfish player in order to become more impactful. He needs to shift his mindset from being a play-maker first to a shooter first. I think the rest of the team sees him as a scorer, but he sees himself as a play-maker, leading to him passing on shots where/when he would have the best chance to score.

Hockey is a team sport, so Eichel shouldn't be relied on to do everything by himself, but when his talent level is that much higher than his line-mates, he has to. (And yes, that's a shot at Reinhart. He's a talented player that's capable of making the small plays that lead to goals or scoring opportunities, but he isn't capable of carrying the puck by himself for more than second. He can only be counted on to make those quick, instantaneous passes, which, while important, makes him a complimentary player, rather than one an offense can run through. This is a gripe about wanting Reinhart to be forced to play center so he can further develop his skill set, but that'll never happen and this thread is about Eichel.)

Also, lines do need to shuffled--at least temporarily, but that's on the coach.

 

[OkimLom]

Holding Eichel back from producing more: Jack Eichel

Holding Eichel back from winning: The Buffalo Sabres organization.

 

[OkimLom]

I think Eichel has to become a more selfish player in order to become more impactful. He needs to shift his mindset from being a play-maker first to a shooter first. I think the rest of the team sees him as a scorer, but he sees himself as a play-maker, leading to him passing on shots where/when he would have the best chance to score.

Hockey is a team sport, so Eichel shouldn't be relied on to do everything by himself, but when his talent level is that much higher than his line-mates, he has to. (And yes, that's a shot at Reinhart. He's a talented player that's capable of making the small plays that lead to goals or scoring opportunities, but he isn't capable of carrying the puck by himself for more than second. He can only be counted on to make those quick, instantaneous passes, which, while important, makes him a complimentary player, rather than one an offense can run through. This is a gripe about wanting Reinhart to be forced to play center so he can further develop his skill set, but that'll never happen and this thread is about Eichel.)

Also, lines do need to shuffled--at least temporarily, but that's on the coach.

I'd rather have our team have full of complementary players like Reinhart that play this style than the Jack Eichel solo runs. It's leads to more consistent hockey, that guys are forced to move with the puck and pick up their assignments better. Also it breaks down other teams much easier and causes more confusion. Also, it's a quicker transition and a quicker way to play the game.

 

[Chainshot]

Maybe Buff was onto something with the idea of someone like Pat Maroon for Jack's wing. I don't know. At this point, Sam needs to shuffle off again. Their sympatico isn't sympatico right now.

 

[MayDayMayDay]

Yea it's the supporting cast. Jack needs help. Not just on his line. We need depth. Too much underdeveloped talent or dead weight still. Jack can elevate the players around him, but they need to have chemistry. Solidify his line with good chemistry (whether it be with Vick, Sam, Skinny, whoever), then focus on beefing up the lines behind him.

 

[sufferer]

Yea it's the supporting cast. Jack needs help. Not just on his line. We need depth. Too much underdeveloped talent or dead weight still. Jack can elevate the players around him, but they need to have chemistry. Solidify his line with good chemistry (whether it be with Vick, Sam, Skinny, whoever), then focus on beefing up the lines behind him.

Unfortunately there’s no real depth on the way until Cozens hits his stride in the pros, and that may be years away. Mittelstadt was heralded as a bluechipper but we now know that’s far from the case. He hasn’t been the net negative player he was last season, but he should go down to Roch. to rekindle whatever offensive flair he has left. This is looking like yet another lost year, on multiple fronts.

 

[old kummelweck]

I think Jack is limited in what he can do against the higher-end teams that know how to take away his time and space. I'm not sure how much more upside there is. He's a great player and this may be what we get.

 

[joshjull]

Maybe Buff was onto something with the idea of someone like Pat Maroon for Jack's wing. I don't know. At this point, Sam needs to shuffle off again. Their sympatico isn't sympatico right now.

In the current set up with Skinner and Jack apart. I can definitely see a bigger physical winger who can win puck battles being much more useful than Olofsson.

They could always put Skinner back with Jack though. Then sign Pommer to a cheap deal to help with the injuries right now. Get the band back together.

 

[valet]

I think Jack is limited in what he can do against the higher-end teams that know how to take away his time and space. I'm not sure how much more upside there is. He's a great player and this may be what we get.

imo he still needs a legit shooting threat with him in LW. people thought that olofsson would be the answer, but after seeing 20 games of him, he's clearly not.

jack right now is a total beast. imagine if he had someone riding shotgun that could actually pot a one-timer (and don't say skinner, cause that's not his game). he'd be a perennial 95 pt player

 

[OkimLom]

I think Jack is limited in what he can do against the higher-end teams that know how to take away his time and space. I'm not sure how much more upside there is. He's a great player and this may be what we get.

He's only limited by what HE wants to do. There are a handful of guys in the league that have the skillset to do whatever they want in today's game. Jack is one of them. Imagine if Jack attacked the puck in the way MacKinnon, McDavid, or Crosby does.

He needs a guy like Joe Thornton (not necessarily him), a future Hall of Famer, in his ear EVERY day pushing him to strive for more on and off the ice. He needs to be helped by someone that played at a higher level than most. Crosby had Mario, McDavid has Orr and Gretzky to talk to, to learn from. Playing in Buffalo you don't get that sort of access that the larger market teams have. I feel he needs to get that next level "tutoring". I think that would open up a lot of potential in Jack.

 

[explore]

I'd rather have our team have full of complementary players like Reinhart that play this style than the Jack Eichel solo runs. It's leads to more consistent hockey, that guys are forced to move with the puck and pick up their assignments better. Also it breaks down other teams much easier and causes more confusion. Also, it's a quicker transition and a quicker way to play the game.

Off-topic: My gripe isn't that I want Reinhart to stop making those plays, it's that I want him to develop beyond doing only that. I think he has a similar build and playing style to Marcus Johannson, and I can see him developing into a similar type of player--including Johannson's fantastic puck carrying skills.

If Reinhart can pick up Johannson's puck carrying skills, he'll become a vastly more impactful player, one that can carry his own line, potentially.

Back to Jack: Maybe he can talk to Alexander Mogilny about scoring more goals.

 

[deVolt]

When he is in good mood he is unplayable, but when he has off night it gets calamitous. feels like he developed bad habits in his junior years due to him being much better than his peer, can get nonchalant in his play sometimes, still only 1 player I would trade him for.

 

[OkimLom]

When he is in good mood he is unplayable, but when he has off night it gets calamitous. feels like he developed bad habits in his junior years due to him being much better than his peer, can get nonchalant in his play sometimes, still only 1 player I would trade him for.

what junior years? Do you mean college? Or do you mean his youth years?

 

[deVolt]

what junior years? Do you mean college? Or do you mean his youth years?

pre-draft

 

[sabremike]

Pretty simple: he has never played a single second of his pro career playing for a legit credible NHL quality coach (and please don't mention Abysmal AKA The Barry Switzer of Hockey). Do you doubt for a second that if say Barry Trotz was our coach that the bad things Jack does would be coached out of him like what we are seeing with Barzal?

 

[darcyRegier]

Pretty simple: he has never played a single second of his pro career playing for a legit credible NHL quality coach (and please don't mention Abysmal AKA The Barry Switzer of Hockey). Do you doubt for a second that if say Barry Trotz was our coach that the bad things Jack does would be coached out of him like what we are seeing with Barzal?

I can only imagine how good Jack would be if he was drafted and developed by an actual competent NHL organization.

 

[Chainshot]

Pretty simple: he has never played a single second of his pro career playing for a legit credible NHL quality coach (and please don't mention Abysmal AKA The Barry Switzer of Hockey). Do you doubt for a second that if say Barry Trotz was our coach that the bad things Jack does would be coached out of him like what we are seeing with Barzal?

Dominant at both ends of the rink? Do tell.

 

[joshjull]

He is in the same immature stage to becoming the game in, game out, two way beast that he has the potential to become.

Just look at the growth to that kind of player that guys like Yzerman, Sakic, and Modano went through.

And it's the same kind of stuff that Ovi hinted at when he commented about the Leafs.

Let me guess, Stevie Y, Sakic and Modano had to “transform” their games in order for them and their team to take it to the next level. So Jack needs to do the same for himself AND the team to take the next step.

Its this the type of flawed thinking thats led to the over the top expectations for Jack.

Stevie Y and Sakic don’t even belong in this discussion. Both won Cups because they each had a ton of talent around them not because they transformed their games.

Modano makes some sense since he needed to buy into the defensive structure Hitch was coaching. It was one of the final pieces needed for that team to challenge for a Cup. The other piece was adding HOF goalie Ed Belfour. But even here the comparison struggles to line up. Dallas had a strong overall team. They had a very strong defense corp and foreword group that could play very strong defense. All Modano needed to do was buy in and play defensively responsible. He didn’t need to be a “two way beast”. They had Nieuwendyk for that.


All Jack needs to do is keep committing to playing defense like he has (warts and all). He can improve there but the issue that needs to be addressed for team success is the actual roster around him. I feel quite confident saying the current version of Jack would suddenly look very good defensively on any of the successful teams Sakic, Yzerman or Modano played on.

 

[Jim Bob]

Let me guess, Stevie Y, Sakic and Modano had to “transform” their games in order for them and their team to take it to the next level. So Jack needs to do the same for himself AND the team to take the next step.

Its this the type of flawed thinking thats led to the over the top expectations for Jack.

What flawed thinking has led to over the top expectations for Jack? There were huge expectations for him because of all the "generational talent" hype in the McEichel draft year and Murray tanking the season to be guaranteed to be able to draft one.

Stevie Y and Sakic don’t even belong in this discussion. Both won Cups because they each had a ton of talent around them not because they transformed their games.

No one player wins a Cup by themselves. Of course the team needs more talent around Jack. But, that doesn't mean that Jack's game doesn't need to mature to make him, and the team, better.

Modano makes some sense since he needed to buy into the defensive structure Hitch was coaching. It was one of the final pieces needed for that team to challenge for a Cup. The other piece was adding HOF goalie Ed Belfour. But even here the comparison struggles to line up. Dallas had a strong overall team. They had a very strong defense corp and foreword group that could play very strong defense. All Modano needed to do was buy in and play defensively responsible. He didn’t need to be a “two way beast”. They had Nieuwendyk for that.

Hitch has talked about how he had to fight with Modano for him to play a 200 foot game. But, he knew that was something Modano needed to do to take the Stars to another level.

How Ken Hitchcock's time with Mike Modano helped mold Tyler Seguin's transformation last season

It's a well-worn strategy in the NHL, one that coach Ken Hitchcock used on Modano back in the 1990s. Hitchcock took the speedy center with magical hands and put him up against the other team's best players. He challenged Modano to play a 200-foot game, and he helped the former first overall pick find the perfect way to play hockey.

"I look back and it was just a good fit," Modano said. "He pushed the right buttons on me and he got the best out of me, and I really appreciate everything he did for me. It worked out great."

All Jack needs to do is keep committing to playing defense like he has (warts and all). He can improve there but the issue that needs to be addressed for team success is the actual roster around him. I feel quite confident saying the current version of Jack would suddenly look very good defensively on any of the successful teams Sakic, Yzerman or Modano played on.

Jack needs to be way more consistent. He was bought in earlier in the season and that has slipped.

 

[joshjull]

What flawed thinking has led to over the top expectations for Jack? There were huge expectations for him because of all the "generational talent" hype in the McEichel draft year and Murray tanking the season to be guaranteed to be able to draft one.



No one player wins a Cup by themselves. Of course the team needs more talent around Jack. But, that doesn't mean that Jack's game doesn't need to mature to make him, and the team, better.



Hitch has talked about how he had to fight with Modano for him to play a 200 foot game. But, he knew that was something Modano needed to do to take the Stars to another level.

How Ken Hitchcock's time with Mike Modano helped mold Tyler Seguin's transformation last season





Jack needs to be way more consistent. He was bought in earlier in the season and that has slipped.

What flawed thinking ? The idea that Jack getting a little bit better defensively will magically make us much better as a team. Then posting examples that don’t even make your point (Stevie Y, Sakic and Modano). Then not grasping they don’t make your point.

Also tanking is not Jack’s doing or his fault. It would be pretty stupid to hold him to some ridiculous standard because of it. He’s currently playing at a 50+ goal/95+ point pace. I feel quite comfortable saying he is doing his job to help the team. Even with some defensive warts. We have other issues dragging us down.

Btw I’m well aware of what played out between Modano and Hitch. But you have quite a staggering lack of awareness of the differences between the two situations. Modano was a petulant brat fighting with Hitch in his 7th/8th seasons. Whereas Jack has already been trying to get better defensively the last two years (his 4th and 5th seasons). Essentially trying to do this 3 years before Modano did and without fitting tooth and nail with his coaches over it. Thats the guy you're calling immature? The one that needs to use Modano as an example? Thats pretty funny.

 

[Chainshot]

He's saying the right things...

 

[Jim Bob]

What flawed thinking ? The idea that Jack getting a little bit better defensively will magically make us much better as a team. Then posting examples that don’t even make your point (Stevie Y, Sakic and Modano). Then not grasping they don’t make your point.

That isn't the point I was trying to make.

The question for this thread is what is holding Eichel back. My opinion is that Eichel still has to grow and mature. And using Yzerman, Sakic, and Modano as examples of players that did mature and adapt their games over the course of their careers is something that I believe Eichel needs to do.

That doesn't mean that Eichel's maturation process needs to follow the same exact path as those guys.

But, if Eichel doesn't mature his game, I could see his career going like Stamkos' has where he is an immense talent offensively, but there are the little details to the game that don't evolve to where they need to be to make him a difference maker when it matters most.

One area where Eichel needs to mature is at the faceoff dot. He didn't enter the league like Crosby or Toews where he was winnign 50%+ of his draw from the time he was a rookie. So, he needs to get better at that skill that isn't sexy. But, it does matter.

There are other smaller, less sexy details that Eichel needs to get better at.

AND THE TEAM NEEDS TO BE BETTER AROUND HIM.

I don't believe it is an either/or.

Also tanking is not Jack’s doing or his fault. It would be pretty stupid to hold him to some ridiculous standard because of it.

The tanking was an outcome of the expectations and not a cause. He was expected to be a generational talent, so Murray tanked to guarantee that he got Eichel or McDavid.

It wasn't a narrative that was created after the Sabres tanked and drafted Eichel.

He’s currently playing at a 50+ goal/95+ point pace. I feel quite comfortable saying he is doing his job to help the team. Even with some defensive warts. We have other issues dragging us down.

If you think that Eichel doesn't have anything else to give this team, then we will just need to agree to disagree.

And I think everyone agrees that the rest of the team needs to be better. That's why Botts is getting so much flak right now.

Btw I’m well aware of what played out between Modano and Hitch. But you have quite a staggering lack of awareness of the differences between the two situations. Modano was a petulant brat fighting with Hitch in his 7th/8th seasons. Whereas Jack has already been trying to get better defensively the last two years (his 4th and 5th seasons). Essentially trying to do this 3 years before Modano did and without fitting tooth and nail with his coaches over it. Thats the guy you're calling immature? The one that needs to use Modano as an example? Thats pretty funny.

Again, you are missing the point.

I guess we should just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[Chainshot]

Maybe the penny might be dropping for him.

 

[joshjull]

That isn't the point I was trying to make.

The question for this thread is what is holding Eichel back. My opinion is that Eichel still has to grow and mature. And using Yzerman, Sakic, and Modano as examples of players that did mature and adapt their games over the course of their careers is something that I believe Eichel needs to do.

That doesn't mean that Eichel's maturation process needs to follow the same exact path as those guys.

But, if Eichel doesn't mature his game, I could see his career going like Stamkos' has where he is an immense talent offensively, but there are the little details to the game that don't evolve to where they need to be to make him a difference maker when it matters most.

One area where Eichel needs to mature is at the faceoff dot. He didn't enter the league like Crosby or Toews where he was winnign 50%+ of his draw from the time he was a rookie. So, he needs to get better at that skill that isn't sexy. But, it does matter.

There are other smaller, less sexy details that Eichel needs to get better at.

AND THE TEAM NEEDS TO BE BETTER AROUND HIM.

I don't believe it is an either/or.



The tanking was an outcome of the expectations and not a cause. He was expected to be a generational talent, so Murray tanked to guarantee that he got Eichel or McDavid.

It wasn't a narrative that was created after the Sabres tanked and drafted Eichel.



If you think that Eichel doesn't have anything else to give this team, then we will just need to agree to disagree.

And I think everyone agrees that the rest of the team needs to be better. That's why Botts is getting so much flak right now.



Again, you are missing the point.

I guess we should just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Its not that I don’t get your point. Its that you're not really making one that makes any sense.


You go on and on about Jack needing to “mature”, “grow” and “transform” his game as a player. The implication being Jack is immature and hasn’t been willing to grow/transform his game to this point. Yet the reality is Jack has already committed to transforming his game and did so before last season. The transformation has been ongoing for more than a season. Its not over but its certainly not in the “need to decide to do it in the first place” phase you keep arguing it is.

Jack is much better defensively this season than he was 2 years ago. All while producing at the best production pace of his career (50g/95pts). Which means he is decidedly better at every aspect of his game than he was two years ago. That only happens with Jack deciding to make a commitment to transform/grow his game. For whatever reason you are stubbornly refusing to accept this.

He’s about 90% of the way to the player he needs to be. There is still some tweaking and cleaning up to do. But the transformation is well on its way and not that far from completion. The only thing I worry about with Jack being able to “make a difference when it counts” is whether he will ever be on a team that gives him the chance to do so.


To answer the thread question. Nothing is really holding Jack back in terms of being the best player he can be at this point in time. But it was a more relevant question when this thread started near the end of last season.