Rumor: In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) LXXXI

[dahrougem2]

anyone up for avatar bet on ROR trade return? i don't think he'll return zadorov, morrissey or nurse etv.

I'm torn. If he gets traded to Winnipeg or Edmonton, I don't think we'll get either of those prospects. However, if he goes to Buffalo, I think we do get Zadorov. Murray seems obsessed with ROR and I wouldn't put it past him to give us Zadorov

 

[Foppa2118]

They still got NHL players out of those picks even if they aren't world beaters. Their AHL team has won the Calder cup, been to another final and are the top team in the East right now. Having a winning AHL team breeds a winning attitude and competition.

Witkowski just made the NHL and could be a bottom pair D for several years. Panik looks like he'll be a top 9 player. Buekeboom was used with a pick to acquire Eric Brewer. Peca is a potential Hobey Baker winner. Having extra picks allows you to find gems or use as trade chips. You could always trade Hejda and then resign him, it happens if he really likes it here.

Peca is the only one with a potential decent future, and college success doesn't always translate to NHL success. In fact many times it doesn't.

Witkowski spent two years in the minors after finishing college, and still hasn't really made the NHL yet because he's only played 10 games this year and bounced between being a healthy scratch and in the lineup as a soon to be 25 year old. He's nothing to write home about.

Trading Brock Beukeboom and a 3rd for Brewer is a completely different conversation and not really relevant since you can extrapolate many situations with additional trades to finally find a useful player. You could use a terrible trade of assets as an example and find a good player that came of it somewhere along the line. The bottom line is Brock Beukeboom has not been a useful prospect since drafted.

 

[cgf]

anyone up for avatar bet on ROR trade return? i don't think he'll return zadorov, morrissey or nurse etv.

sure thing. I'm pretty confident that at least Zads will get put on the table by his GM, a lot more skeptical that Nurse or Morrissey get offered up, though I could be talked into Klef/Marincin + Yak

 

[InjuredChoker]

sure thing. I'm pretty confident that at least Zads will get put on the table by his GM, a lot more skeptical that Nurse or Morrissey get offered up, though I could be talked into Klef/Marincin + Yak

i think klef/marincin + yak is plausible.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Peca is the only one with a potential decent future, and college success doesn't always translate to NHL success. In fact many times it doesn't.

Witkowski spent two years in the minors after finishing college, and still hasn't really made the NHL yet because he's only played 10 games this year and bounced between being a healthy scratch and in the lineup as a soon to be 25 year old. He's nothing to write home about.

Trading Brock Beukeboom and a 3rd for Brewer is a completely different conversation and not really relevant since you can extrapolate many situations with additional trades to finally find a useful player. You could use a terrible trade of assets as an example and find a good player that came of it somewhere along the line. The bottom line is Brock Beukeboom has not been a useful prospect since drafted.

Panik is a useful NHL player with a decent future still. Peca has Dominic Moore potential. Those are bottom 6 guys the Avs could use, the bottom 6 isn't very good.

Witkowski is in his 2nd pro season and has already made the NHL, he's older and doesn't have a high ceiling but again is a 6/7 who's cheap unlike an overpaid Stuart.

Janus and Panik were big parts of those AHL teams with players like Johnson and Palat. If not for being on a winning team like that and playing meaningful AHL playoff games who knows if Johnson and Palat develop like they have. Since Lake Erie has been the AHL affiliate they've been to the playoffs once, in that time the Avs have been just twice. If Sakic and Roy want to improve the prospect pool they need a strong AHL team as it leads to stronger depth players.

 

[dahrougem2]

i think klef/marincin + yak is plausible.

Don't think so. Marincin, yes, but he projects as a #4-#6 defenseman long-term. His absolute ceiling is a #3, and I'm not sure he'll reach that ceiling. Yakupov is turning his game around under a different coach. They won't move him

 

[Foppa2118]

Panik is a useful NHL player with a decent future still. Peca has Dominic Moore potential. Those are bottom 6 guys the Avs could use, the bottom 6 isn't very good.

Witkowski is in his 2nd pro season and has already made the NHL, he's older and doesn't have a high ceiling but again is a 6/7 who's cheap unlike an overpaid Stuart.

Janus and Panik were big parts of those AHL teams with players like Johnson and Palat. If not for being on a winning team like that and playing meaningful AHL playoff games who knows if Johnson and Palat develop like they have. Since Lake Erie has been the AHL affiliate they've been to the playoffs once, in that time the Avs have been just twice. If Sakic and Roy want to improve the prospect pool they need a strong AHL team as it leads to stronger depth players.

I really have to disagree with most all of this.

Panik is 24 and he's being played as a 4th liner averaging 10:48 in ice time, on a terrible team in Toronto. I don't see him as an example of why Hejda needed to be traded.

Peca is a work in progress, and there's tons of guys out there that could be described as having Dominic Moore potential. Maybe he gets there, and if he does he'll be a good example of a return on a player that wasn't in Tampa's plans. Given the fact he hasn't yet, and is 21 and a 5'8" 155 lb college player, he has some hurdles to overcome first.

Witkowski is about to turn 25, has 10 NHL games, and was just sent back down to the minors.

These draft picks that aren't good enough for the NHL, did not have that much bigger of an impact on their AHL success and what Johnson and Palat eventually turned into, than what an AHL free agent signing would have. I don't see how bringing in AHL players was a reason why they had to move someone like Hejda for assets, and it's a little unfair to attribute Johnson and Palat's success to the moves made to acquire their picks.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

anyone up for avatar bet on ROR trade return? i don't think he'll return zadorov, morrissey or nurse etv.

I'll take you up on it. However our bet is if Ryan O'Reilly is an Av on opening night next year I win. If he's property of any other team before then you win, regardless of the return.

 

[ABasin]

That's just plain incorrect. Dallas didn't move Horcoff. Buffalo didn't move some of their guys. Arizona couldn't move Erat (granted, NTC). New Jersey didn't move a bunch of their guys.

I slightly mistyped. I meant to say at least "a" UFA-to-be, not all of their UFAs-to-be.

In other words, every obvious non-playoff team besides Colorado moved a meaningful UFA-to-be, (except Ottawa who didn't have any).

SORRY ABOUT THE INCONVENIENT DIRTY FACTS!!!

 

[Avs_19]

Even big time Oilers homers here in Edmonton aren't that high on Klefbom/Marincin but they get brought up here as potential answers to our problems on defense. Would much rather give Siemens a shot in the NHL before bringing in either one of them, especially Klefbom.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Trades aren't allowed. FA signings only.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

I slightly mistyped. I meant to say at least "a" UFA-to-be, not all of their UFAs-to-be.

In other words, every obvious non-playoff team besides Colorado moved a UFA-to-be, (except Ottawa who didn't have any).

SORRY ABOUT THE INCONVENIENT DIRTY FACTS!!!

Colorado moved Stollery...boom, lawyered.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Trades aren't allowed. FA signings only.

McKenzie just said Florida could trade for goaltender, but he can't play in playoffs.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

McKenzie just said Florida could trade for goaltender, but he can't play in playoffs.

Yea, the trade deadline is just for players to be eligible to play for your team in the playoffs.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

McKenzie just said Florida could trade for goaltender, but he can't play in playoffs.

He went back on that tweet and said he stands corrected.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

Colorado moved Stollery...boom, lawyered.

We moved a 27 year old UFA AHL career defender. I think we won that trade

 

[Foppa2118]

I slightly mistyped. I meant to say at least "a" UFA-to-be, not all of their UFAs-to-be.

In other words, every obvious non-playoff team besides Colorado moved a meaningful UFA-to-be, (except Ottawa who didn't have any).

SORRY ABOUT THE INCONVENIENT DIRTY FACTS!!!

Ottawa has Eric Condra as a pending UFA. They're also the only other team in the NHL besides Colorado and Tampa who has two or fewer pending UFA's on the big club.

 

[HoseEmDown]

I really have to disagree with most all of this.

Panik is 24 and he's being played as a 4th liner averaging 10:48 in ice time, on a terrible team in Toronto. I don't see him as an example of why Hejda needed to be traded.

Peca is a work in progress, and there's tons of guys out there that could be described as having Dominic Moore potential. Maybe he gets there, and if he does he'll be a good example of a return on a player that wasn't in Tampa's plans. Given the fact he hasn't yet, and is 21 and a 5'8" 155 lb college player, he has some hurdles to overcome first.

Witkowski is about to turn 25, has 10 NHL games, and was just sent back down to the minors.

These draft picks that aren't good enough for the NHL, did not have that much bigger of an impact on their AHL success and what Johnson and Palat eventually turned into, than what an AHL free agent signing would have. I don't see how bringing in AHL players was a reason why they had to move someone like Hejda for assets, and it's a little unfair to attribute Johnson and Palat's success to the moves made to acquire their picks.

If you could trade Hejda, get a potential NHL player, then still resign him in the offseason why not take the chance?

Look at the Avs roster, who besides Barrie have they developed in the AHL? You won't find a Johnson or Palat if you can't develop properly no matter how many picks you have but having more picks gives you a better chance to.

 

[Foppa2118]

If you could trade Hejda, get a potential NHL player, then still resign him in the offseason why not take the chance?

Look at the Avs roster, who besides Barrie have they developed in the AHL? You won't find a Johnson or Palat if you can't develop properly no matter how many picks you have but having more picks gives you a better chance to.

Every draft pick is a "potential" NHL player. Looking at that list from Tampa and it shows that even a great scouting and developing staff can't work magic on those picks. It's still a very low probability that you will get a decent NHL player with the assets you acquired.

As for trading Hejda and then signing him as a UFA, if they could have locked that down, and Hejda was willing to do it, sure I'd be in favor of it. I think that scenario is wishful thinking most of the team though because we rarely see it. When a pending UFA is traded it usually results in both sides moving on. It also doesn't sound like Hejda really wanted to be traded even as a rental, but who knows.

You keep bringing up Johnson or Palat. One was a free agent signing and the other was their own 7th round pick. This isn't an example of why moving Hejda for assets was so important.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Every draft pick is a "potential" NHL player. Looking at that list from Tampa and it shows that even a great scouting and developing staff can't work magic on those picks. It's still a very low probability that you will get a decent NHL player with the assets you acquired.

As for trading Hejda and then signing him as a UFA, if they could have locked that down, and Hejda was willing to do it, sure I'd be in favor of it. I think that scenario is wishful thinking most of the team though because we rarely see it. When a pending UFA is traded it usually results in both sides moving on. It also doesn't sound like Hejda really wanted to be traded even as a rental, but who knows.

tampa's current scouting staff has been in place since 2011 or after the 2010 draft.

 

[EdAVSfan]

If you could trade Hejda, get a potential NHL player, then still resign him in the offseason why not take the chance?

Look at the Avs roster, who besides Barrie have they developed in the AHL? You won't find a Johnson or Palat if you can't develop properly no matter how many picks you have but having more picks gives you a better chance to.

This is a lot of assumption on your part.

First, from what we've read, Hejda didnt appear like he wanted to move at all and seems very intent on wanting to stay here. If you go to the guy and he doesnt want to get moved, do you still move him and then try to re-sign him?

If the avs dont sign Hejda, ill definitely be pissed. But if he ends up re-signing with us prior to July 1st, Ill have no issue with not moving him.

The alternative is what if you trade Hejda, draft someone who doesnt pan out, and then Hejda doesnt want to re-sign? We can all swing these types of arguments. But this isnt a video game, there are real life people with emotions involved in these decisions.

 

[Foppa2118]

tampa's current scouting staff has been in place since 2011 or after the 2010 draft.

And their development staff has been there as well I'm assuming, and neither have much to show for the picks they acquired by trading players for assets.

 

[Freudian]

And their development staff has been there as well I'm assuming, and neither have much to show for the picks they acquired by trading players for assets.

The distinction you are making between players drafted with their own picks and picks they traded for, just to argue that picks traded for doesn't matter so Avs shouldn't bother, isn't very logical.

Everyone knows most picks in round 3 or later most likely won't give you a NHL player. Some do. That's the entire point of trying to accumulate picks. You get more chances of hitting.

Tampa went down their draft lists and if they happened to pick a guy with their own pick or a pick they've traded for is pure randomness. That doesn't make their own pick they've drafted Palat with more worth than any other 7th rounder.

 

[InjuredChoker]

And their development staff has been there as well I'm assuming, and neither have much to show for the picks they acquired by trading players for assets.

i'm not sure how it is that relevant that they missed/haven't panned out yet with those picks as they could take more chances with more picks and they used at least one of those picks (along with conacher) to acquire their current starting goalie.

maybe they take peca instead with their 7th rounder in ´11 and miss out on palat, for example.

i think that list is also missing gusev fwiw.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Every draft pick is a "potential" NHL player. Looking at that list from Tampa and it shows that even a great scouting and developing staff can't work magic on those picks. It's still a very low probability that you will get a decent NHL player with the assets you acquired.

As for trading Hejda and then signing him as a UFA, if they could have locked that down, and Hejda was willing to do it, sure I'd be in favor of it. I think that scenario is wishful thinking most of the team though because we rarely see it. When a pending UFA is traded it usually results in both sides moving on. It also doesn't sound like Hejda really wanted to be traded even as a rental, but who knows.

You keep bringing up Johnson or Palat. One was a free agent signing and the other was their own 7th round pick. This isn't an example of why moving Hejda for assets was so important.

Hejda is also 36 and will be 37 when FA begins, if you trade him and he doesn't resign I don't see the big issue. Sure he's in the top 4 but he's not gonna be around much longer. He's also going to be on a 35+ contract so not sure I'd be comfortable handing out any term to him.

Palat was Tampa's 7th while Peca was the one picked after a trade, if they didn't have two maybe they go Peca since Palat was a 20 year old in his 3rd draft who could've been signed if not drafted. They saw something in him and knowing they had two 7ths they could take a chance.

Drafting is only one part of building a team, development is another, Roy wants to overhaul the drafting philosophy but the development needs it too. The Avs have done well with most high picks but outside of that it hasn't been that good. Doesn't matter how many picks you have if you can't develop any of them.