Rumor: In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) LXXXI

[RockLobster]

I iz no good at da Roman Numeralz....

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[Foppa2118]

It's finally sinking in that there won't be any moves to look forward to for another 4-5 months, and the Avs aren't making the playoffs, so there's not a whole lot to look forward to in the near future for this team.

 

[tigervixxxen]

They could sign guys like prospects, overagers and college FAs. But I understand if that's not high on the excitement meter. we could still see guys like Siemens get a crack in the NHL.

 

[BoxOfChocolates]

It's finally sinking in that there won't be any moves to look forward to for another 4-5 months, and the Avs aren't making the playoffs, so there's not a whole lot to look forward to in the near future for this team.

and we aren't tanking either, so our reward is a nice and shiny 10th overall pick

 

[Freudian]

It's a bit disappointing that adding draft picks for UFAs is viewed as a pointless activity around here and something that should be mocked. If that's your feeling, you're cheering for the right team. O'Byrne for a fourth round pick is the only player traded for picks at trade deadline through the last six years when they've rebuilt.

I prefer Avs would make an effort to get more of them. Even lower round picks helps.

Remember that Palat-Johnson-Kucherov line that have made Avs look like idiots when playing Tampa? Second round pick, seventh round pick and undrafted free agent.

 

[tucker3434]

Yeah, I'll try to get excited about watching Caron and Hishon. It'd be really nice if both can do well and look like they belong at the NHL level. I guess I won't get to see any of Hamilton, but I look forward to hearing the reports out of Erie.

Other than that, I guess we just have pool weather to look forward to. 70* in Atlanta today.

 

[BoxOfChocolates]

It's a bit disappointing that adding draft picks for UFAs is viewed as a pointless activity around here and something that should be mocked. If that's your feeling, you're cheering for the right team. O'Byrne for a fourth round pick is the only player traded for picks at trade deadline through the last six years when they've rebuilt.

Jordan Leopold in 09?

 

[Nzap]

LXXXI

If they keep Hejda I have no problems them not trading him away.
As long as that means he supplants Guenin next season.
I really don't wanna see that guy playing regular minutes anymore.

 

[Foppa2118]

It's a bit disappointing that adding draft picks for UFAs is viewed as a pointless activity around here and something that should be mocked. If that's your feeling, you're cheering for the right team. O'Byrne for a fourth round pick is the only player traded for picks at trade deadline through the last six years when they've rebuilt.

I prefer Avs would make an effort to get more of them. Even lower round picks helps.

Remember that Palat-Johnson-Kucherov line that have made Avs look like idiots when playing Tampa? Second round pick, seventh round pick and undrafted free agent.

That has more to do with Tampa's scouting ability than moving pending UFA's for draft picks. Palat and Kucherov were their own picks, and the same amateur scouts that found them, found Johnson in the WHL and recommended signing him.

 

[BoxOfChocolates]

Reto Berra come on down

 

[henchman21]

Reto Berra come on down

I had the exact same thought.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Cgf, we don't have to move RoR at the draft. He can be moved just as easily on July 1st. 1) with teams being able to talk to these FA before FA starts we will have a very good idea of where we stand and can make our important moves rather quickly. 2) look at this years FA forwards. Not that appealing. We make RoR available and he will still be popular. 3) apparently Murry loves RoR. That's not going to change from the draft to July 1st.

As for the options being short term solutions, that shouldn't be a problem with our Dman pool. We need a guy right now. We should have more than 1 guy ready for this level in a few years though. Zadorov isn't a must have in this situation. great guy to have, but not needed with EJ, Barrie, New guy, Hedja. Fixing the hole left by RoR in the top6 would be more important than bumping Hedja down a line with Zadorov. I like the idea of Hedja playing on the middle pair more than any of our non-top6 forwards playing top6 full time.

So it's either a young D with potential or a package? Why not a young and upcoming forward?

People say that Sakic and Roy would be stupid to go into next season hoping for one of Bigras/Siemens to be ready to step in and I agree with that. However isn't as stupid for them to go into next season and hoping they will find 2 top-4 dmen (two UFAs or one UFA and one by trading ROR)?

What I get from this TDL is that sakic/Roy are hedging their bets. Either way they go, last year FA showed us how difficult it is to sign top-4 FA dmen unless you overpay quite a bit. You can always overpay on one but two is stupid. Also they still have hope to re-sign ROR. What if they do succeed. Then they have to find two which is next to impossible again unless you overpay quite a bit and with the contract upgrades coming up to EJ, MacK, Barrie, and maybe McGinn (if they decide to keep him), that would be very stupid.

So as I said they are hedging their bets. If they find 2 top-4 dmen it pushes Hejda down to the 3rd pairing (which I think everybody would be fine with) and some of Holden/Guenin/Stuart/Redmond out of the lineup. If they find only one, they have Hejda playing with Barrie and it still pushes Guenin out. And if they don't find any, they still have Hejda that can play with EJ which is certainly far from ideal.

Hejda on a lesser workload is not a bad thing until one of our kids is ready which should take only one more year max.

People say not trading Hejda was bad GMing. I'd argue that hedging your bets was actually good GMing.

This is kind of how I see it. I think they plan on signing/trading for a partner for EJ, and then see where Bigras is at. Hedja is kind of insurance in case Bigras isn't ready for this level or top4 minutes. And if Bigras is ready, that just pushes Holden to the bench and either Guenin or Redmond to LE (hopefully Guenin, I'm scared someone would take a chance on Redmond going through waivers).

 

[cgf]

That has more to do with Tampa's scouting ability than moving pending UFA's for draft picks. Palat and Kucherov were their own picks, and the same amateur scouts that found them, found Johnson in the WHL and recommended signing him.

Well it also has a lot to do with the great development they were able to provide those kids. And that has a lot to do with their organizational depth, which has a lot to do with those extra picks, their scouting, and their ability to do great work in the college game.

 

[Avs_19]

That has more to do with Tampa's scouting ability than moving pending UFA's for draft picks. Palat and Kucherov were their own picks, and the same amateur scouts that found them, found Johnson in the WHL and recommended signing him.

Better to have extra picks than not have them. More chances to hit on those later picks the better. They absolutely should have traded Hejda for a pick.

 

[cgf]

Cgf, we don't have to move RoR at the draft. He can be moved just as easily on July 1st. 1) with teams being able to talk to these FA before FA starts we will have a very good idea of where we stand and can make our important moves rather quickly. 2) look at this years FA forwards. Not that appealing. We make RoR available and he will still be popular. 3) apparently Murry loves RoR. That's not going to change from the draft to July 1st.

As for the options being short term solutions, that shouldn't be a problem with our Dman pool. We need a guy right now. We should have more than 1 guy ready for this level in a few years though. Zadorov isn't a must have in this situation. great guy to have, but not needed with EJ, Barrie, New guy, Hedja. Fixing the hole left by RoR in the top6 would be more important than bumping Hedja down a line with Zadorov. I like the idea of Hedja playing on the middle pair more than any of our non-top6 forwards playing top6 full time.

So it's either a young D with potential or a package? Why not a young and upcoming forward?



This is kind of how I see it. I think they plan on signing/trading for a partner for EJ, and then see where Bigras is at. Hedja is kind of insurance in case Bigras isn't ready for this level or top4 minutes. And if Bigras is ready, that just pushes Holden to the bench and either Guenin or Redmond to LE (hopefully Guenin, I'm scared someone would take a chance on Redmond going through waivers).

I think the benefits of moving him at the draft are pretty significant.

1) any picks we acquire will be picks in this draft, not next year's draft. Which makes a big difference on the utility of those secondary pieces to us.
2) teams won't have started filling out their roster with UFAs/won't be fully focused on picking over this very thin UFA market and so will have more roster/cap flexibility and a greater willingness to make major changes.
3) it gives Patrick and Joe time to be fully prepared for UFA if they can have time to look deeper into what their options there are with a firmer understanding of what our future core looks like and what we need to fill (i.e. difference between a prospect who'll be at least pushing for a top 4 gig by seasons end, and one who is likely to just be earning their first callup by season's end; do we get a forward back in the ror trade?; do Soderberg/Martin/Sekera/Erhoff/Vermette re-sign with their current clubs?, etc.)

So I really do think there's a significant benefit to forcing the issue before the draft, unless negotiations are going better than expected and for a while real progress is possible...before things stall again, forcing the trade.

As for our D pool, I like it a lot to, but we really could use one more stud who has a higher ceiling than Bigras for me to feel convinced that our future on D will be sexy. I really love Bigras, and he will play with EJ if someone young enough to keep the job hasn't claimed it before Chris gets there; I still like Siemens a lot, his development has been messy and he needs a big year, but he's got nice middle pairing tools and has developed (even if it has been slower than we'd have liked); Gaertsen's exciting and could surpass Siemens if he keeps making big strides every year while Dunk slowly moves forward; and the other projects (Wood, Butcher, Corbett, Beaupre, Storm if he's still ours) are all interesting for their own reasons...but Bigras is the only guy in our pool we should feel confident in banking on becoming even "just" a top 4 guy. Though I do think Dunk and Gaerts can both grow into really nice Barrie partners, it's still going to take a while (quite a while in Gaertsen's case) and it's a gamble that they don't stagnate. To be well covered we would need a Zadorov/Morrissey type who can become even better than Bigras, so that we're still well set if only one of Siemens/Gaertsen can become an NHLer. Even if we do add a vet to give the kids time to develop at their own pace. That's why I see the need to add one more major young LHD talent in the ROR trade, regardless of what happens in FA.

 

[dahrougem2]

As much as the offence has struggled this year, I really do believe that trading O'Reilly is the best move for this organization long-term. An O'Reilly for Zadorov + 1st (NYI) + say Grigorenko deal would be good for this team in the future. Taking a high-end defenseman with our pick, and then a highly skilled forward with our next 1st would be ideal. We could probably slot Grigorenko/whichever forward comes back in the deal into the line-up next season along with Zadorov on the backend. Then Roy/Sakic could focus all their efforts towards a UFA defenseman

 

[cgf]

As much as the offence has struggled this year, I really do believe that trading O'Reilly is the best move for this organization long-term. An O'Reilly for Zadorov + 1st (NYI) + say Grigorenko deal would be good for this team in the future. Taking a high-end defenseman with our pick, and then a highly skilled forward with our next 1st would be ideal. We could probably slot Grigorenko/whichever forward comes back in the deal into the line-up next season along with Zadorov on the backend. Then Roy/Sakic could focus all their efforts towards a UFA defenseman

I'd actually flip that and hope they took a forward with our pick and a dman with the other first. With Zadorov coming aboard we'd have a pretty freaking great set up defensively...as long as we found someone to hold the fort next to EJ until the kids took over. EJ, Barrie, Zadorov and Bigras as guys we can be quite confident in anchoring our D, with the likes of Siemens, Gaertsen, Wood, Butcher, etc to fill the unit out around them. That won't be Weber, Josi and Seth good, but that can still become a top 5 defensive corps if we had the necessary stop gaps to let them all develop on their own schedule.

Whereas up front we're really thin on high end talent in the pipeline. Bleackley's the only one in our organization outside of the big 4 + McGinn, who we should have confidence in being able to one day fill a top 6 role. Rendulic has the talent to get there and has flashed it in the NHL, though he still needs plenty of work. While in the AHL Schumacher, Smith, Bourke and Hish have shown some tools to validate claims about middle 6 potential; but Hish is likely on his way out if he doesn't shine now, Schuh is a long shot even compared to Rendo, and Smith/Bourke or more likely to end up more skilled versions of a younger Talbs than they are a top 6er like Tangs. That group is just begging for more high upside talents, even if we bring in Grigorenko and let him take Cliche's job/push for Malkin's spot between McGinn/Tanguay and Rendulic/Everberg if he doesn't adapt tot he wing.

 

[dahrougem2]

I'd actually flip that and hope they took a forward with our pick and a dman with the other first. With Zadorov coming aboard we'd have a pretty freaking great set up defensively...as long as we found someone to hold the fort next to EJ until the kids took over. EJ, Barrie, Zadorov and Bigras as guys we can be quite confident in anchoring our D, with the likes of Siemens, Gaertsen, Wood, Butcher, etc to fill the unit out around them. That won't be Weber, Josi and Seth good, but that can still become a top 5 defensive corps if we had the necessary stop gaps to let them all develop on their own schedule.

Makes sense. I just think Zacha will drop and may be available as a late 1st/early 2nd. He's my forward of preference for this draft outside of the obvious guys we won't be able to get barring a lottery miracle.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I think the benefits of moving him at the draft are pretty significant.

1) any picks we acquire will be picks in this draft, not next year's draft. Which makes a big difference on the utility of those secondary pieces to us.
2) teams won't have started filling out their roster with UFAs/won't be fully focused on picking over this very thin UFA market and so will have more roster/cap flexibility and a greater willingness to make major changes.
3) it gives Patrick and Joe time to be fully prepared for UFA if they can have time to look deeper into what their options there are with a firmer understanding of what our future core looks like and what we need to fill (i.e. difference between a prospect who'll be at least pushing for a top 4 gig by seasons end, and one who is likely to just be earning their first callup by season's end; do we get a forward back in the ror trade?; do Soderberg/Martin/Sekera/Erhoff/Vermette re-sign with their current clubs?, etc.)

So I really do think there's a significant benefit to forcing the issue before the draft, unless negotiations are going better than expected and for a while real progress is possible...before things stall again, forcing the trade.

As for our D pool, I like it a lot to, but we really could use one more stud who has a higher ceiling than Bigras for me to feel convinced that our future on D will be sexy. I really love Bigras, and he will play with EJ if someone young enough to keep the job hasn't claimed it before Chris gets there; I still like Siemens a lot, his development has been messy and he needs a big year, but he's got nice middle pairing tools and has developed (even if it has been slower than we'd have liked); Gaertsen's exciting and could surpass Siemens if he keeps making big strides every year while Dunk slowly moves forward; and the other projects (Wood, Butcher, Corbett, Beaupre, Storm if he's still ours) are all interesting for their own reasons...but Bigras is the only guy in our pool we should feel confident in banking on becoming even "just" a top 4 guy. Though I do think Dunk and Gaerts can both grow into really nice Barrie partners, it's still going to take a while (quite a while in Gaertsen's case) and it's a gamble that they don't stagnate. To be well covered we would need a Zadorov/Morrissey type who can become even better than Bigras, so that we're still well set if only one of Siemens/Gaertsen can become an NHLer. Even if we do add a vet to give the kids time to develop at their own pace. That's why I see the need to add one more major young LHD talent in the ROR trade, regardless of what happens in FA.

This would not be acceptable. Short of the Avs getting a verbal agreement with ROR, he must be traded before the deadline so they can take full advantage of this year's draft.

 

[Foppa2118]

Better to have extra picks than not have them. More chances to hit on those later picks the better. They absolutely should have traded Hejda for a pick.

The benefit of obtaining post 1st round draft picks for players is really overrated in terms of actual success with those picks IMO. Sure an extra pick is nice and it gives you another shot at a possible NHLer, but the odds of that are still pretty low.

Since Tampa was brought up, I went back and looked at the picks Tampa has obtained through giving up players, and the only one with any sort of NHL career is Richard Panik who has bounced between the NHL and AHL his whole career.

These are the picks they've obtained in recent years after the 1st. They've had a couple others but they were gained from hockey trades or pure pick exchanges on draft day, and also didn't really amount to much. Tampa also seems to have given up more picks than acquired.


2008

6th - Luke Witkowski - Nikita Alexeev trade - 10 NHL games
7th - David Carle - Jay Leach trade - 0 NHL games

2009

2nd - Richard Panik - Vaclav Prospal trade - 133 NHL games 35 points
6th - Jaroslav Janus - Nick Tarnasky trade - 0 NHL games

2010

3rd - Brock Beukeboom - Jeff Halpern trade - 0 NHL games
3rd - Adam Janosik - Evgeny Artyukhin trade - 0 NHL games
4th - James Mullin - Dan Boyle trade - 0 NHL games (senior at miami of ohio)

2011

7th - Matthew Peca - Marc-Antoine Pouliot trade - 0 NHL games (senior at Quinnipiac University)

2012

2nd - Brian Hart - Pavel Kubina trade - 0 NHL games (junior at Harvard)

2013

7th - Joel Vermin - Marc-Andre Bergeron trade - 0 NHL games (drafted as a 21 year old, 23 now and in AHL)

 

[cgf]

Makes sense. I just think Zacha will drop and may be available as a late 1st/early 2nd. He's my forward of preference for this draft outside of the obvious guys we won't be able to get barring a lottery miracle.

I have watched very little non-NHL hockey this year, and when I have it has been to check up on our boys. So I'll cede that decision to those of us who have seen these kids enough to have a strong read on them. But just in general terms I would rather use our pick on a forward and our second pick (whether it be a late first from buffalo or our own next pick) on a dman. We really need to improve the high end talent in the pipeline and we don't figure to have all that many top 10 picks over the next 15 years, even ones in the 7-10 part of that range. So I think we have to take this chance to add another forward, especially if ROR's leaving.

Plus a defensive prospect that we pick between 8-12 is probably not going to be ready to fill a top 4 role for this team for another 3-5 years, by which point Bigras and Zadorov will already be in that top 4 alongside EJ and Barrie. And with that top 4, Varly, and our core forwards, we need to solidify the forward depth a lot more than we do that third pairing.

 

[Iceberg]

As much as the offence has struggled this year, I really do believe that trading O'Reilly is the best move for this organization long-term. An O'Reilly for Zadorov + 1st (NYI) + say Grigorenko deal would be good for this team in the future. Taking a high-end defenseman with our pick, and then a highly skilled forward with our next 1st would be ideal. We could probably slot Grigorenko/whichever forward comes back in the deal into the line-up next season along with Zadorov on the backend. Then Roy/Sakic could focus all their efforts towards a UFA defenseman

Problem is no one knows if Zadorov or any young top 4 Dman would be available in a trade for ROR.

And if the Avs manage to get this package you proposed, they should focus no getting a center to replace ROR.

 

[cgf]

Problem is no one knows if Zadorov or any young top 4 Dman would be available in a trade for ROR.

And if the Avs manage to get this package you proposed, they should focus no getting a center to replace ROR.

Murray knows. And he seems pretty confident he's gunna be able to pull ROR this summer if the avs are forced to move him. So I think it's not a stretch to predict that Murray is ready to taking the bidding to that level once he starts having to top real offers from all of the teams who'll join the bidding this offseason.

And we will need to replace ROR between Landy and MacK, but even with a Zadorov or Morrissey coming back for ROR, we'll still need someone to play on the first pairing with ej for at least the next 1-3 years. So the ROR trade won't resolve that question, even if it does yield the kind of package I think it's very likely to.

 

[HoseEmDown]

The benefit of obtaining post 1st round draft picks for players is really overrated in terms of actual success with those picks IMO. Sure an extra pick is nice and it gives you another shot at a possible NHLer, but the odds of that are still pretty low.

Since Tampa was brought up, I went back and looked at the picks Tampa has obtained through giving up players, and the only one with any sort of NHL career is Richard Panik who has bounced between the NHL and AHL his whole career.

These are the picks they've obtained in recent years after the 1st. They've had a couple others but they were gained from hockey trades or pure pick exchanges on draft day, and also didn't really amount to much. Tampa also seems to have given up more picks than acquired.


2008

6th - Luke Witkowski - Nikita Alexeev trade - 10 NHL games
7th - David Carle - Jay Leach trade - 0 NHL games

2009

2nd - Richard Panik - Vaclav Prospal trade - 133 NHL games 35 points
6th - Jaroslav Janus - Nick Tarnasky trade - 0 NHL games

2010

3rd - Brock Beukeboom - Jeff Halpern trade - 0 NHL games
3rd - Adam Janosik - Evgeny Artyukhin trade - 0 NHL games
4th - James Mullin - Dan Boyle trade - 0 NHL games (senior at miami of ohio)

2011

7th - Matthew Peca - Marc-Antoine Pouliot trade - 0 NHL games (senior at Quinnipiac University)

2012

2nd - Brian Hart - Pavel Kubina trade - 0 NHL games (junior at Harvard)

2013

7th - Joel Vermin - Marc-Andre Bergeron trade - 0 NHL games (drafted as a 21 year old, 23 now and in AHL)

They still got NHL players out of those picks even if they aren't world beaters. Their AHL team has won the Calder cup, been to another final and are the top team in the East right now. Having a winning AHL team breeds a winning attitude and competition.

Witkowski just made the NHL and could be a bottom pair D for several years. Panik looks like he'll be a top 9 player. Buekeboom was used with a pick to acquire Eric Brewer. Peca is a potential Hobey Baker winner. Having extra picks allows you to find gems or use as trade chips. You could always trade Hejda and then resign him, it happens if he really likes it here.

 

[InjuredChoker]

anyone up for avatar bet on ROR trade return? i don't think he'll return zadorov, morrissey or nurse etv.