Rumor: In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) LXXX

[ColoradoSportsFan]

This thread = giant pissing match...

Whole place has become toxic

It's the same old story though. Message board posters think they know how to run the team better than the people actually doing the job. So when the team does something or doesnt do something that the message boarders want or don't want they throw a tantrum.

Sure, second guessing is fine (I would have paid Stastny the 7 mill to stay). But to get so angry about moves or non-moves when you have such little knowledge of what actually happens in practice and behind closed doors seems off to me.

The only thing they did that seemed weird was retaining 50% of Talbots salary. But there is likely a story behind that. Maybe Talbot made a request to go back East and Sakic decided to accommodate it no matter what. Maybe Roy had an issue with him and decided he was willing to eat that salary to get rid of him.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Big difference between the 32nd pick and the 54th. But sure I wish we still had those seconds too, not going to deny that.

At this point though, isn't it about being right? How many times does the same thing have to be said?

Boston has no money, they probably couldn't do the deal without the retention. And Talbot was shocked, he wasn't behind the move.

 

[RockLobster]

Convenient that the two most important things that they can do to prove you wrong are things we'll just have to wait on see on. Cause from where I'm sitting they've handled the ROR things well so far and have themselves in a good position to get a strong return if he isn't extended. All while having a phenomenal first draft and strong second draft and improving our developement pipeline by pulling some very useful guys out of thin air.

I don't think they've handled the O'Reilly situation the best (*gasp!* See, I can levy criticism, when I feel it's warranted)...the 2 year contract wasn't ideal (in my opinion) but I can at least understand the thought process some have with it--the contract was actually the first one signed, willingly, by both parties, aside from the ELC. I can understand the thought process that it "extends" the relationship...but to me, "handling it well" would have been one of 2 things: Long-term extension, or trading him.

 

[Nihiliste]

Big difference between the 32nd pick and the 54th. But sure I wish we still had those seconds too, not going to deny that.

At this point though, isn't it about being right? How many times does the same thing have to be said?

It's not like the opposing narratives aren't also repeated here; you're right there isn't much new information to add either way. Should we just shut down all discussion on the direction of the team?

I haven't been around for a while anyways but the deadline seems like a reasonable time to briefly reevaluate where we stand as an organization.

 

[AslanRH]

It is much easier to be negative early on and then claim to be right when things don't immediately reach their ceiling. Then you can still claim "pleasant surprise" and "exceeded my expectations" if things go well.

I'm sure most of us are guilty of these things at times. I've learned a great deal about myself and other posters while re-reading some pre-season and projection threads from the last few years.

 

[tigervixxxen]

It's not like the opposing narratives aren't also repeated here; you're right there isn't much new information to add either way. Should we just shut down all discussion on the direction of the team?

I haven't been around for a while anyways but the deadline seems like a reasonable time to briefly reevaluate where we stand as an organization.

No but how about think of how to add value to the discussion and that goes both ways. Considering they did almost nothing at the deadline it's just a continuation of the same discussion that's been going on for months.

 

[Nihiliste]

It is much easier to be negative early on and then claim to be right when things don't immediately reach their ceiling. Then you can still claim "pleasant surprise" and "exceeded my expectations" if things go well.

I'm sure most of us are guilty of these things at times. I've learned a great deal about myself and other posters while re-reading some pre-season and projection threads from the last few years.

Why would having an opinion be something one would have to be considered "guilty of". Taking a clear stance while being willing to admit when you're wrong seems like a reasonable way to behave.

No but how about think of how to add value to the discussion and that goes both ways. Considering they did almost nothing at the deadline it's just a continuation of the same discussion that's been going on for months.

The bolded in itself seems like important information to consider as part of management's growing track record however.

Regardless, I can consider how to better add value to discussions in the future but I do think it's frustrating to hear that certain points shouldn't be made while others are repeated ad nauseum as well. I expect discussion to turn wholeheartedly to the draft over the coming weeks which should be more productive.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The Talbot trade is getting the least amount of discussion. I agree the Hejda thing is at least fresh even if there isn't much else to say about it. Discussion, disagreement is good. Hostility isn't. And I said that goes both sides too.

 

[AslanRH]

Why would having an opinion be something one would have to be considered "guilty of". Taking a clear stance while being willing to admit when you're wrong seems like a reasonable way to behave.

It is reasonable when people, no matter what the opinion, do so genuinely.

Many though tend to take their stance based always on lower expectations. Hedging bets so to speak.

Just a trend I've seen on these boards as well as in other sports boards. Even in things like political and social policy. People who have often been disappointed begin to expect to be disappointed going forward, even when the pieces and circumstances have changed. Those are the same people who are often quick to point out how right they were when things don't go perfectly.

 

[cgf]

I don't think they've handled the O'Reilly situation the best (*gasp!* See, I can levy criticism, when I feel it's warranted)...the 2 year contract wasn't ideal (in my opinion) but I can at least understand the thought process some have with it--the contract was actually the first one signed, willingly, by both parties, aside from the ELC. I can understand the thought process that it "extends" the relationship...but to me, "handling it well" would have been one of 2 things: Long-term extension, or trading him.

And I'll have that discussion because I disagree intensely. ROR wasn't signing a long term deal. So they had a few options; trade him right then and there, let arbitration decide, sign him to a short term deal while feeling his side out on the framework for a long term deal/laying the groundwork for a future long term deal.

To me the third option was the right gamble to take. The difference between Kulikov and Zads when we're competing is unlikely to be largely in Kuli's favor. So I don't think the trade option is significantly weaker with us holding him for another year before shipping him out; but it does put the long term extension option on the table, where it wouldn't be if they had tried to force things to come to ahead last year.

Plus, in the short run, that would've meant losing both Staz and ROR in the same summer, necessitating not just iggy, but another top 6er to be acquired. And unless that guy was a new center, we'd have been stuck forcing MacK to stay at center this year, which would've been disastrous for his development. Being able to move him to ROR's wing is going to prove to have been a huge thing for us to keep his development running smoothly.

In an ideal world ROR and/or Stastny would've had an extra year left on their contract(s) so that Patty and Joe had time to deal with Staz properly and they wouldn't have had to focus so much energy on the UFA scramble with Staz/Iggy, but that wasn't the hand they were dealt. They had to figure out if Sacco had broken Staz before they could commit to him or move him for any value, but by the time they knew he still "had it" and he had proven it to the league the avs were in a fight for the Central division with Staz playing a pivotal role on our shutdown line with Landy, and later MacK. Moving him at the deadline would've undermined the entire season and set us back. And once the magical run had ended the summer of his free agency was upon us.

 

[cgf]

It is reasonable when people, no matter what the opinion, do so genuinely.

Many though tend to take their stance based always on lower expectations. Hedging bets so to speak.

Just a trend I've seen on these boards as well as in other sports boards. Even in things like political and social policy. People who have often been disappointed begin to expect to be disappointed going forward, even when the pieces and circumstances have changed. Those are the same people who are often quick to point out how right they were when things don't go perfectly.

To be fair, that does seem like a very reasonable position to take RE: politics and social policy...

 

[TheStranger]

So what I've learned is people are mad that Roy and Sakic didn't want to go into next year with Guenin and Holden both in the top 6. Because having Hejda still on the team allows that not to happen. They're not going to get both a #2 and #3 defender in free agency.

So they either throw away next season and wait yet another year for someone from our prospect pool to step up, or they keep Hejda for another year to solidify at least the second pairing and keep Guenin off of it.

 

[dahrougem2]

So what I've learned is people are mad that Roy and Sakic didn't want to go into next year with Guenin and Holden both in the top 6. Because having Hejda still on the team allows that not to happen. They're not going to get both a #2 and #3 defender in free agency.

So they either throw away next season and wait yet another year for someone from our prospect pool to step up, or they keep Hejda for another year to solidify at least the second pairing and keep Guenin off of it.

Maybe some people really do want a defence of

XXX-EJ
Guenin-Barrie
Holden-Stuart

For next season? Unless those same people magically think Bigras and Siemens are going to step in next season and both make an immediate impact in the top-4?

I'd rather take my chances at 1 UFA defenseman, keep Hejda, and let Bigras and Siemens have 1 more year to develop instead of taking chances on 2 UFA defenseman, and if it doesn't happen, hoping both Bigras and Siemens can make the jump.

 

[RockLobster]

Maybe some people really do want a defence of

XXX-EJ
Guenin-Barrie
Holden-Stuart

For next season? Unless those same people magically think Bigras and Siemens are going to step in next season and both make an immediate impact in the top-4?

I'd rather take my chances at 1 UFA defenseman, keep Hejda, and let Bigras and Siemens have 1 more year to develop instead of taking chances on 2 UFA defenseman, and if it doesn't happen, hoping both Bigras and Siemens can make the jump.

But the draft picks!!! Won't somebody please think of the draft picks!?

(just good-natured ribbing)

 

[the_fan]

It's the same old story though. Message board posters think they know how to run the team better than the people actually doing the job. So when the team does something or doesnt do something that the message boarders want or don't want they throw a tantrum.

Sure, second guessing is fine (I would have paid Stastny the 7 mill to stay). But to get so angry about moves or non-moves when you have such little knowledge of what actually happens in practice and behind closed doors seems off to me.

The only thing they did that seemed weird was retaining 50% of Talbots salary. But there is likely a story behind that. Maybe Talbot made a request to go back East and Sakic decided to accommodate it no matter what. Maybe Roy had an issue with him and decided he was willing to eat that salary to get rid of him.

Just because someone has a GM title doesn't mean they're actually doing a good job.

Moves that Sakic and Roy have made so far all have been bad moves.

Losing Stastny
Trading for Talbot
Trading for Briere<<Ok so this one might pay off because they'll free up cap space or whatnot
Signing Stuart
Trading 2nd for Berra

All of the above are bad moves and made the team worse.
And there are still few question marks as to what they'll do with Hejda and ROR

I know losing Hejda wont be that big although they could of maybe gotten a 2nd round pick for him, but it's still a possibility that they'll lose ROR.


Until Sakic and Roy do something to actually improve the team, i'm gonna have my doubts about them.

 

[dahrougem2]

But the draft picks!!! Won't somebody please think of the draft picks!?

(just good-natured ribbing)

I look at the situation this way: People question Roy all the time for his decisions, specifically the line-up he ices but in all reality he doesn't have much of a choice on defence because he ain't got no one else. So, to me, his thought process is "We can go hard after a UFA defenseman, re-sign Hejda to a short deal and bump him down to the 2nd pair with Barrie, and phase Guenin out of the line-up permanently."

Did any of the complainants ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, Sakic and Roy have made the decision that Siemens simply isn't ready for the NHL and needs a full, healthy year in Lake Erie to develop? Bringing back Hejda lets them do that without the added pressure of needing 2 UFA defenseman to avoid another Guenin in the top-4 tragedy.

Contrary to what some people believe, they are trying to improve the defence.

 

[TheStranger]

I look at the situation this way: People question Roy all the time for his decisions, specifically the line-up he ices but in all reality he doesn't have much of a choice on defence because he ain't got no one else. So, to me, his thought process is "We can go hard after a UFA defenseman, re-sign Hejda to a short deal and bump him down to the 2nd pair with Barrie, and phase Guenin out of the line-up permanently."

Did any of the complainants ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, Sakic and Roy have made the decision that Siemens simply isn't ready for the NHL and needs a full, healthy year in Lake Erie to develop? Bringing back Hejda lets them do that without the added pressure of needing 2 UFA defenseman to avoid another Guenin in the top-4 tragedy.

Contrary to what some people believe, they are trying to improve the defence.

I've only been repeating that exact thing since yesterday afternoon. It hasn't helped at all. Too many people with raging complaint hard ons that refuse to see any other side to the story.

You're exactly right.

Right now the Avs are banking on Siemens and Bigras stepping up, probably within 2 years. They will not be able to get two big name guys on defense in FA to fill two holes that would exist if Hejda was traded away.

By keeping Hejda, you get a cheap very solid #4 to line up next to Barrie, push Guenin out of the top 6 altogether immediately, and give the prospects another season to get ready.

So, as I've said the people crying either wanted to tank next season altogether, expected the Avs to get a #2 and #3/4 guy or think that Guenin on the second pairing is just fine.

Oh, and God forbid that no free agent would come to the Avs. Imagine if we didn't even have Hejda? Everyone get ready for Johnson/Redmond or Johnson/Holden top pairing.

 

[dahrougem2]

I've only been repeating that exact thing since yesterday afternoon. It hasn't helped at all. Too many people with raging complaint hard ons that refuse to see any other side to the story.

You're exactly right.

Right now the Avs are banking on Siemens and Bigras stepping up, probably within 2 years. They will not be able to get two big name guys on defense in FA to fill two holes that would exist if Hejda was traded away.

By keeping Hejda, you get a cheap very solid #4 to line up next to Barrie, push Guenin out of the top 6 altogether immediately, and give the prospects another season to get ready.

So, as I've said the people crying either wanted to tank next season altogether, expected the Avs to get a #2 and #3/4 guy or think that Guenin on the second pairing is just fine.

Oh, and God forbid that no free agent would come to the Avs. Imagine if we didn't even have Hejda? Everyone get ready for Johnson/Redmond or Johnson/Holden top pairing.

It's the whole "asset management" crowd in particular. They seem to believe that there is simply no other way to win other than trading potential UFA's for future picks and thus ensuring future success.

Let's put it this way: Hejda asked to stay, so Sakic granted him that wish. What if he hadn't? What if Hejda asks to stay, and then Hejda's agent on deadline day calls him and says "Sorry pal, you've been traded." There is ZERO chance Hejda re-signs here in the summer, because that, to me anyways, is disrespectful. And yes, respect plays a huge factor in player negotiations. I understand he doesn't have a NTC/NMC but he's a veteran player who has played for many years, and has spent the last 4 years with this team playing tougher minutes than anyone would have probably imagined when he first signed here, and he's done it without a single complaint, giving it his all every single night, playing with broken fingers in the playoffs and not a peep, and saying that he wants to be here and win a cup here with this team. Who cares about the potential 3rd/4th round pick! That's a guy I want on my team.

If Hejda was traded against his wish, people don't think that other UFA defenseman aren't going to call the guy and ask about the Avs? Think he's going to give them a good review? Probably not. And that lowers our chances on a potential UFA defenseman significantly. Going into next season with no UFA defenseman AND no Hejda is disastrous.

 

[AvsFan2123]

Just because someone has a GM title doesn't mean they're actually doing a good job.

Moves that Sakic and Roy have made so far all have been bad moves.

Losing Stastny
Trading for Talbot
Trading for Briere<<Ok so this one might pay off because they'll free up cap space or whatnot
Signing Stuart
Trading 2nd for Berra

All of the above are bad moves and made the team worse.
And there are still few question marks as to what they'll do with Hejda and ROR

I know losing Hejda wont be that big although they could of maybe gotten a 2nd round pick for him, but it's still a possibility that they'll lose ROR.


Until Sakic and Roy do something to actually improve the team, i'm gonna have my doubts about them.

Getting real tired of your constant pessimism and showing ignorance of this team. So the extensions they handed to Duchene at 6, Landeskog at 5.5, and Varly at 5.9 were bad moves? Those are steals of contracts. All should be getting paid more. Downie for Talbot was a bad move? The Tanguay and Sarich trade was a bad move? Think we know the answer to that. Also not to the mention the fact they've killed it at the draft and added solid prospects through signings, such as: Bigras, Martin, Geertsen, Butcher, Bleackley, Wood, Henley, Everberg, and Rendulic. Another good move was the Iginla signing. They were also confirmed by a few people to be close to signing Orpik, Stralman, and Hayes. Now they aren't perfect, they've made some questionable moves and made a few mistakes. But, they have also helped the team quite a bit.

 

[Freudian]

I don't know why people insist Guenin and Holden won't be among the top six next year. They've been for the past two years. Roy and Sakic had a summer to get rid of them if they were viewed as a problem. But the opposite happened. They gave them both multi-year extensions. Hunwick they sent to AHL, O'Brien they traded and Zanon they bought out. That's how they dealt with players that they didn't think was good enough. There is no indication that Roy views Guenin and Holden as the scrubs fans view them as. They're rarely scratched. Roy always talks about them in positive terms.

As for Hejda to save us from them? He's, as he's getting older, starting to slow down in a big way. He's making a lot of mistakes with the puck this year. His decision making when pinching is terrible. If they didn't add Stuart, who is basically the same type of player, keeping Hejda in a limited role might have been a good idea. Going into next year with Holden, Stuart and Hejda/Guenin among the top six just means more of the same we've seen this year. You can't hide that much lack of puck skill and lack of mobility. Every team in the league exploit the hell out of Avs defense being slow and poor with the puck. Even if they replace Guenin with mystery UFA or Bigras/Siemens, that's not enough. It's still too unskilled a defense to get us anywhere.

While I don't think Roy enjoys having such an unskilled defense, these are players he traded for/signed. These are players he keep playing. He seems to like them more than you do.

 

[AslanRH]

I look at the situation this way: People question Roy all the time for his decisions, specifically the line-up he ices but in all reality he doesn't have much of a choice on defence because he ain't got no one else. So, to me, his thought process is "We can go hard after a UFA defenseman, re-sign Hejda to a short deal and bump him down to the 2nd pair with Barrie, and phase Guenin out of the line-up permanently."

Did any of the complainants ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, Sakic and Roy have made the decision that Siemens simply isn't ready for the NHL and needs a full, healthy year in Lake Erie to develop? Bringing back Hejda lets them do that without the added pressure of needing 2 UFA defenseman to avoid another Guenin in the top-4 tragedy.

Contrary to what some people believe, they are trying to improve the defence.

I brought that up before the deadline, and got killed for it.

Thankfully you and posters like the Stranger and a few others have been reinforcing the argument.

"Asset management" is becoming my second favorite catch phrase behind "Advanced Stats say..." anymore.

 

[AvsFan2123]

I brought that up before the deadline, and got killed for it.

Thankfully you and posters like the Stranger and a few others have been reinforcing the argument.

"Asset management" is becoming my second favorite catch phrase behind "Advanced Stats say..." anymore.

Hejda and Barrie actually play really well together. Bringing him back on a cheap, 1 year deal isn't that bad. It's not that great though either. If they want to improve their D, they have to bring in at least one top 4 D in FA. There's a lot of options, just hope they can execute this time around.

 

[dahrougem2]

I don't know why people insist Guenin and Holden won't be among the top six next year. They've been for the past two years. Roy and Sakic had a summer to get rid of them if they were viewed as a problem. But the opposite happened. They gave them both multi-year extensions. Hunwick they sent to AHL, O'Brien they traded and Zanon they bought out. That's how they dealt with players that they didn't think was good enough. There is no indication that Roy views Guenin and Holden as the scrubs fans view them as. They're rarely scratched. Roy always talks about them in positive terms.

As for Hejda to save us from them? He's, as he's getting older, starting to slow down in a big way. He's making a lot of mistakes with the puck this year. His decision making when pinching is terrible. If they didn't add Stuart, who is basically the same type of player, keeping Hejda in a limited role might have been a good idea. Going into next year with Holden, Stuart and Hejda/Guenin among the top six just means more of the same we've seen this year. You can't hide that much lack of puck skill and lack of mobility. Every team in the league exploit the hell out of Avs defense being slow and poor with the puck. Even if they replace Guenin with mystery UFA or Bigras/Siemens, that's not enough. It's still too unskilled a defense to get us anywhere.

While I don't think Roy enjoys having such an unskilled defense, these are players he traded for/signed. These are players he keep playing. He seems to like them more than you do.

Alright, so say last summer Guenin and Holden are moved for God knows what. What then? We ice a defence of

Hejda-EJ
Wilson-Barrie
Stuart-Redmond

And pray to god that no injuries occur otherwise we're stuck with Stefan Elliott, Karl Stollery and/or Bruno Gervais playing major minutes? The fact that they went after Brooks Orpik and Anton Stralman tells me that both Sakic and Roy know Guenin for sure isn't good enough, and I think Stuart was brought in because they swung and missed when going after the UFA's. I believe that Roy likes Holden a lot, and personally I don't mind Holden as a 3rd pairing #6 guy. Guenin and Holden are far better than anything the Avs have down in Lake Erie, there is no denying that. But keeping Hejda around and signing a UFA defenseman pushes Guenin out of the line-up, and Hejda is miles better than Guenin so having him as a #4 next to Barrie is, to me anyways, a good thing for this team.

A true top pair partner with EJ can eat up ~24 minutes, with Hejda-Barrie eating up ~20 minutes, and leaving only ~16 minutes for Holden/Stuart. I think we'd be a far better team like that.

 

[the_fan]

Getting real tired of your constant pessimism and showing ignorance of this team. So the extensions they handed to Duchene at 6, Landeskog at 5.5, and Varly at 5.9 were bad moves? Those are steals of contracts. All should be getting paid more. Downie for Talbot was a bad move? The Tanguay and Sarich trade was a bad move? Think we know the answer to that. Also not to the mention the fact they've killed it at the draft and added solid prospects through signings, such as: Bigras, Martin, Geertsen, Butcher, Bleackley, Wood, Henley, Everberg, and Rendulic. Another good move was the Iginla signing. They were also confirmed by a few people to be close to signing Orpik, Stralman, and Hayes. Now they aren't perfect, they've made some questionable moves and made a few mistakes. But, they have also helped the team quite a bit.

First of all, those extensions to Duchene, Landeskog, Varly are standard GM moves. Those numbers are the right numbers and that's what those player worth at the time they were given the extensions.

Varly probably worth more right now, but Landeskog and Duchene are getting what they worth.

Secondly, all those players you mentioned, Everberg, Rendulic, Iginla etc...haven't had any impact on the team obviously because after those moves this team is gonna miss the playoffs.

I don't know how you people judge things, but in my book, when a team makes the playoffs one year then the GM makes moves and the following year the team misses the playoffs, i call that taking steps back and bad GMing.

If you people getting tired of my posts just don't read them, shouldn't be too hard, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[dahrougem2]

First of all, those extensions to Duchene, Landeskog, Varly are standard GM moves. Those numbers are the right numbers and that's what those player worth at the time they were given the extensions.

Varly probably worth more right now, but Landeskog and Duchene are getting what they worth.

Secondly, all those players you mentioned, Everberg, Rendulic, Iginla etc...haven't had any impact on the team obviously because after those moves this team is gonna miss the playoffs.

I don't know how you people judge things, but in my book, when a team makes the playoffs one year then the GM makes moves and the following year the team misses the playoffs, i call that taking steps back and bad GMing.

If you people getting tired of my posts just don't read them, shouldn't be too hard, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Well then, Steve Yzerman must not be a very good GM either, huh? Make the playoffs in his first season and go all the way to the conference finals, only to go the next two years missing the playoffs, during which his team finished 21st and 28th overall, respectively.

Nobody is saying you can't have an opinion. But it's the constant bashing of Sakic and Roy and EVERY. SINGLE. THING. that they do which is tiresome. Makes people think that even if they were to bring in Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin for a 7th round pick in 2069, you'd find some way to criticize it.