Rumor: In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) LXVIX
- Thread starter Frenchy
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I agree teams seems have a very weird idea who is a good depth player and who is a bad one. Chipchura is a good one in my opinion. Nestrasil was too. But there were more than one team that put a claim in for him.
Cousin Eddie
You Serious Clark?
- Nov 3, 2006
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I cant wait to see the reactions around here when people realize Jesse Winchester isn't as good as Crosby or Malkin. I mean, that is the expectation right?
The Rangers dumped two AHL scrubs on Florida to make room for Duclair. It's easy to shed contract space if necessary, and frankly Elliott is still a viable defensive prospect.
The people that have seen him play know he's an upgrade, but no one is making him out to be some sort of saviour, like you seem to be insinuating. He's a decent 3rd liner but a great 4th line guy and would really help this team.
I don't know about that, but a guy who can give the Avs meaningful play in a depth role and win faceoffs with any sort of reliability would be a great asset.
If the Avs could just get a 4th line together that they didn't have to shelter so carefully, that would open up a LOT of options on the offensive side of the ice.
I would be fine with a guy who bumps Cliche to the wing and makes McLeod the extra forward.
That said, I was actually okay with the Highlander's play last night.
Foppa2118
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- Oct 3, 2003
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I still don't get the fascination with the 4th line. Winchester is a clear upgrade on both Cliche and McLeod, but that swap isn't going to have a big enough impact to do much for this team. He'll provide more energy, and a couple more goals probably, but only moves to the top 9 and top 4 on the blueline are going to have a real impact.
Winchester in over Cliche or over McLeod isn't going to get this team back into the playoff picture. Those two aren't that bad for their role anyway. They're not good either, though I think McLeod is fine for the role he's expected to play. They just don't add anything other than what is expected of them in their limited role. It would be nice if they did, but it's not what's sinking this team.
Winchester in over Cliche or over McLeod isn't going to get this team back into the playoff picture. Those two aren't that bad for their role anyway. They're not good either, though I think McLeod is fine for the role he's expected to play. They just don't add anything other than what is expected of them in their limited role. It would be nice if they did, but it's not what's sinking this team.
No, it won't but if it could lead to a 4th line that can play even a couple more minutes and could be a little more trustworthy at even strength, that helps the team as a whole.
The team is losing a lot of one-goal games. Part of that is luck, part of that is the small things that are keeping the Avs from getting that extra goal they got so easily last year. So no, Winchester alone ain't gonna boost the Avs into the playoffs. But it will help team play overall if he can do better in the faceoff dot and play more capable EV defense than Cliche.
Foppa2118
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- Oct 3, 2003
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I don't think the 4th line should be playing more minutes. That's not what's going to help them. It may help them in the sense that the 4th line will be better, but that won't win them many more games, if any. The top 9 NEEDS to be better and NEEDS to be the ones carrying this team. They're the ones whose play will lead to more wins.
That's why I think the constant talk about the 4th liners on the team is overblown.
agentblack
Registered User
Your both right. Our top 6 isnt playing up to where they should be
and our bottom 6 isnt good enough. You cant rely on guys like Mack and Dutchy to do everything.
The best teams in the league can roll 4 lines. we really cant, at all.
AvsFan2123
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The 4th line I would like to see when fully healthy is Bordeleau - Winchester - Talbot and McLeod and Cliche as extras.
When you have a fourth line that can take defensive zone draws, that's fewer defensive zone draws your better players have to take.
When you have a fourth line that ends most of their shifts in the offensive zone, that's more offensive zone starts for your better players.
When you have a fourth line that can't play anything more than a heavily-sheltered, extremely limited role, that's taking offensive zone draws from your best players, and it's also not really giving them the breather they could really use.
When your top players are playing a ton of minutes there's a bigger chance they'll putter out in a crucial moment. We've seen this a few times this year where the team's best players just look plain exhausted. That happens when they have to play too many minutes, and it happens when they have a lot of d-zone starts where they have to skate the puck end-to-end on a regular basis before they can even start creating a scoring chance.
To say a decent fourth line doesn't matter, is, with all due respect, short-sighted. An improvement to the fourth line doesn't make a world of difference, but it makes things easier for the rest of the lineup. And it's also easier to improve your fourth line than it is to try and make some big trade for your top nine that'll likely leave another gaping hole somewhere else.
You can keep saying that the top nine need to carry the team, and you'd be right. The fourth liners' role is to make that carrying a little easier.
- Dec 2, 2007
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Sure, our top 6 guys scoring would be a tremendous help. But you also need to have a deep team with quality players at every line. You can't have your top 9 carrying a weak 4th line that requires sheltering and limited minutes. Your 4th line should be capable of holding their own for the most part, coming out and generating some momentum for you with a big effort and lots of intensity. Some physical play, defensive awareness and faceoff ability.
Winchester would be a big asset for us just on draws alone. I think people forget what it was like to once have McClement on this team and how much better he made the team just by being a great 4th liner. We've had a string of crap since him.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
I think our top 6 not playing like they should is costing us a lot more than the 4th line not being strong. Either way Cliche and cody are really they only guys in our healthy lineup who I view as just adequate in their roles who I'd like to see replaced. Talbot's an excellent 4th liner, Malkin's a good 3rd liner, McGinn's a good middle 6ers, Briere is playing like a legit middle 6er this year, and everberg showed the makings of a good bottom 6er before he got hurt. With Winchester also around as a very good 4th liner I think our bottom 6 would actually be an advantige if we were healthy:
McGinn - Malkin - Briere
Everberg - Winchester - Talbot
Bordy/Cliche/Cody
I hope so as I'm very excited for Winchester.
lol touche. But Martin would help us in the long term if we could reup with him for 2-3 more years. Having him would help our current kids grow a lot, not just cause it would make us charging back into the playoffs this year much likelier. With martin by his side EJ could take his game to another level, Barrie could raise his game to another level with hejda or Stuart next to him, and our forwards would get a lot from having a good defense behind them, and Martin-EJ, Hejda-Barrie, Stuart-Redmond is a good defense.
Plus things would be well set up for us to get the most out of Bigras and Siemens, so even though martin is old and a UFA to be, I do think it would help us in the long run if we snagged him soon.
And if Martin did leave in UFA, we'd be more appealing to Sekera and the other UFAs because they'd see how much better this team looks with the EJ-partner we lack and they could see how appealing that gig is.
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Avs_19
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- Jun 28, 2007
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The 4th line isn't the main problem and our best players need to be better but what's wrong with asking for more? Upgrading the 4th line will only help this team, even if it's only minimal help.
I don't understand why people are okay with the 4th line being arguably the worst in the league. It was the same thing in the offseason when we discussed the defense, some people just completely dismissed the bottom pair and said we would be fine. How's that working out for us? Those players do matter and they do effect the team. If it wasn't for Buffalo, our 4th line and 3rd D pair would have some of the worst numbers in the league. Probably all in the bottom 10.
I don't understand why people are okay with the 4th line being arguably the worst in the league. It was the same thing in the offseason when we discussed the defense, some people just completely dismissed the bottom pair and said we would be fine. How's that working out for us? Those players do matter and they do effect the team. If it wasn't for Buffalo, our 4th line and 3rd D pair would have some of the worst numbers in the league. Probably all in the bottom 10.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
Because in a cap world there's only so many advantages you can have without an overflowing prospect pool. We already have special talent in net, on the right side of our D and in our top 6. With a bottom 6 that would be pretty good if fully healthy and a good chunk of change still to spend on that EJ partner we need. That's why I have few gripes about a 4th line made up of whoever's health from Everberg, Talbot, Winchester, Cliche, Bordy, Cody, Street, Smith, etc.
Especially since, if healthy that 4th line wouldn't be the wrost in the NHL or even very close, Everberg-Winchester-Talbot could actually be one of the better 4th lines if they were healthy and got to gel together.
Chicago has Kruger which means Toews can almost take twice as many starts in the offensive zone instead. Huge advantage. What's interesting is that he actually still isn't scoring on a point per game basis.
What happens to Toews production if Chicago fails to replace Krüger in a solid way? If he has to start more in his own zone than he does in the offensive zone.
Toews is a winner, but looking at his numbers, his future contract, the help he gets from linemates and good defensive players that take defensive zone starts from him... I don't know.
It would be so interesting to see what would happen to Duchene and MacKinnons numbers if we had a solid 3 C and a solid 4 C.
What happens to Toews production if Chicago fails to replace Krüger in a solid way? If he has to start more in his own zone than he does in the offensive zone.
Toews is a winner, but looking at his numbers, his future contract, the help he gets from linemates and good defensive players that take defensive zone starts from him... I don't know.
It would be so interesting to see what would happen to Duchene and MacKinnons numbers if we had a solid 3 C and a solid 4 C.
Avs_19
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- Jun 28, 2007
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Unless Roy really wants Bleackley at RW, he could fill that role on the 3rd line. I don't think it would be bad place for him to start.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
But it is. No team is perfect nowadays. Sure it's possible to put together a cap compliant team that's stacked at every spot when we look at the best contracts and build an imaginary team with a bunch of ELC in one of the mainboard threads. Hell in the teams you like 100% thread I ended up making it work with Erhoff, Vlasic and Hamhuis as our LHDs next to EJ, Barrie and Redmond, and Tanguay-Hanzal-Hertl as our third line with Malkin centering talbs and goc on the 4th, but you can't put together a team like that in real life, so you're going to be not-great somewhere and we have a bigger priority to fix.
You're unfortunately right on Cody, but that wouldn't be because we don't have better talent for the 4th line as that line I mentioned would be awesome in that role.
I see Bleackley as a better version of McGinn if he develops well, so I expect him to be a pure winger when he makes it to the avs. Malkin's likely got the 3C job locked up for as long as he's an av, and that's fine. He's become a good 3C if Winch ever gets healthy enough to center the 4th line.
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