Are we sure Kesler even wants to leave Vancity now that upper management and Torts are gone? I mean sure he has no choice (although doesn't he have a NTC?) but maybe he no longer wants to move.
In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) LVII
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UncleRisto
Not Great, Bob!
Firstly, I doubt Canucks bite. Secondly, I doubt MacKinnon is going to play third line in long stints even in the very near future
Why does it seem like everyone is so hot to move Mack back to center even if Staz comes back. It's one thing to move him to center if Stastny leaves. But a chunk of the reason to keep Stastny is how well the Staz/Landy/Mack line plays together.
ROR-Dutchy-Kesler
Landy-Staz-Mack
Tanguay-Mitchell-McGinn
Talbot-Cliche-McLeod/Bordy
Avs_19
Registered User
- Jun 28, 2007
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Wasn't one of the rumoured reasons for requesting a trade that he didn't want to play in Canada?
My point is that this is a team sport, you can't pull a bunch of stats and treat them as if they came out of a vacuum. Just because they managed without him in the lineup doesn't mean he is any less valuable to the team. As has been stated, the Avs went something like 8-1-2 with Duchene out, does that mean O'Reilly, Landeskog, and MacKinnon are all more important to the team's success than Duchy?
He did not always take on the hardest matchups. Hockey is a game where many different players go up against many different players throughout a game and half the games our coach cant even decide which line to play his against. A lot of times, yes, he was matched up against the top line. A lot times it was Duchene's line. Sometimes even when his line was against the top line he would be matchup up against a dman because thats how the match ups fell based on switching and who is the first on the attack etc etc etc. This system is very much a team effort on D and the forwards have to be versatile enough to play any 3 of the positions because they are going to have to throughout a game. Just because Staz is the C on the top2 way line does not mean he is automatically the guy with the hardest match up on the ice.
Just because he retook his prominent role (all these guys play prominent roles), is now thought of as the player everyone expected 5 years ago and is no longer thought off as underachiever does not make him better than those other players. That says nothing about the other players in discussion. That just means he is no longer underachieving.
"comparable to LAndo and RoR defensively". I never claimed otherwise. I just think both RoR is slightly better defensively. He wasnt responsible for nearly as many goals IMO. And I have said a couple times that Lando's D gets a downgrade because of the many penalties he has taken. I just dont think Staz is this amazing shutdown D guy some are making him out to be. But hey, I think different than you do, so I must not know what i am talking about.
He is not the best playmaker and I am certainly not the only one who thinks that. But once again, I (we) have no idea what i (we) am talking about
Similar offensive production yes, but he was not the key to that line's production. He would be involved in the play and gets credit for that, but usually wasn't the main reason for a goal. If its a 3 on 3 rush at the red line and Staz passes to MacK who just blows by everyone and scores or someone scores off a rebound then Staz was not the key to that play. It would have been MacK beating his man and getting players out of position and scrambling. To me that's how Staz got a lot of his production, just by being a part of the play. Just to clarify, he was the key on plenty of plays as well. I am not saying he did not have his fair share of goal causing plays.
Arguably the smartest, yes. Never said otherwise. I would give that edge to RoR though. I have said many times that staz is very smart and that is his best quality. But I think RoR is smarter because he seemed to be more consistent than Staz in the defensive position category. Both have great IQs on the O side as well. Both are very good at just keeping the puck moving and in a good flow of the offense.
I am not arguing that he is not as valuable as he has proven. With those stats I am arguing that he is not as valuable as some are claiming.
The stats are cherry picked because those are the stats that apply towards comments like 'our defense would fall apart without him'. So i showed what we did without him. Exactly what stats should i use, or do you just want to play this "you dont know what you are talking about, my opinions are so much better" game? Because, you know, that is so convincing.
Im not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just sharing my opinion. I could really care less what anyone thinks. Feel free to have whatever opinion you so chose. But you really need to figure out what I am saying before starting all this "you don't know what you are tlaking about" stuff. Because you clearly don't know what I am talking about. Your taking my comments and inferring something that I am not implying.
Just to clarify. Staz is a great player, which i have said many times. And like someone said earlier, its like splitting hairs saying who is the best. They are all right around the same level and all very important pieces to the team. But I think RoR, Duchene, Lando and MacK were slightly better and everyone should be paid accordingly. This talk of him getting 6.5/7Mil is absurd, especially if he is taking a discount. That and I dont think Staz is as good as some here are making him out to be. But hey, thats different from your opinion, so I must not know what i am talking about
Jesus, butthurt much? I understand that I used strong and unclear wording but my point was that your stats do nothing to convince me, not that you have no idea what you are talking about.
More explicitly, you are entitled to your opinion, I'm not prepared to sit here and bang my head against the wall until you agree with me.
I'm not a big believer in stats period. Consider me as one of the old grumpy scouts from Moneyball, in the war-room with Billy Beane shaking his head at all of his fancy numbers. I can twist your stats in an entirely different angle and that to me shows exactly how useful stats are in a discussion such as this. After that it comes down to personal opinion and yours clearly differs from mine and that's fine.
Like I said, I really just don't understand what you are arguing at this point. I just tried to go through and address the main points of your post but it gave me a headache so I quit. Here are my more collected thoughts.
IMO, Stastny is as important to this team as Landy and RoR. I feel like this year he has proven that he should be considered as part of the core of this team again and not just a complimentary player. The problem with valuing him on par with Landy and RoR is that you then have to understand that he is a UFA and obviously therefore is looking for more money than our RFAs likely are. Discounts and everything else aside, I think it is fair for him to ask for anything in the range of 7M AAV, and after last season, IMO, I think the Avs have to think long and hard before they let him leave for anything less than that. Obviously teams will be willing to pay more, but I think at <7M the Avs need to keep him around.
Please don't again take offence to this post, I don't have the time or patience to argue this any further.
Avsboy
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- Dec 12, 2006
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Acquiring Kesler means losing Stastny. I think a trade centered around Siemens, PaP, and some picks works and with Stastny gone and some astute FA signings our lineup looks good:
FORWARDS
Ryan O'Reilly ($6.000m) / Matt Duchene ($6.000m) / Peter Mueller ($1.500m)
Gabriel Landeskog ($5.571m) / Nathan MacKinnon ($0.925m) / Alex Tanguay ($3.500m)
Jamie McGinn ($2.750m) /Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m)
Cody McLeod ($1.150m) /John Mitchell ($1.800m) / Patrick Bordeleau ($1.000m)
Marc-Andre Cliche ($0.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($6.000m) / Erik Johnson ($3.750m)
Jan Hejda ($3.250m) / Tyson Barrie ($3.500m)
Nick Holden ($0.600m) / Stefan Elliott ($0.900m)
Nate Guenin ($0.800m)/ Ryan Wilson ($2.230m)
GOALTENDERS
Semyon Varlamov ($5.900m)
Reto Berra ($1.450m)
BUYOUTS
Greg Zanon ($0.750m)
------
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $69,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,776,000; BONUSES: $2,850,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $2,224,000
Salary Cap could be more as well
With the Zanon buyout running out, Wilson and Guenin gone, and some other minor tweaks we can get another $5 million in cap space. This and the increased Cap means EJ and Mackinnon fit in without sacrificing offensive depth.
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UncleRisto
Not Great, Bob!
And you have no problem with Peter Mueller playing on the top line and think that there is no reason to why he has played in Switzerland?
Avsboy
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- Dec 12, 2006
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I'm high on Mueller at the moment. I'm convinced that with Duchene and RoR he would put up 60 pts over a full season. I'm absolutely convinced, we've all seen flashes of his talent. Not to mention his PP prowess.
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I am also pretty confident in Mueller bouncing back if he could stick with the Avs. We all know he has triple the skill that McGinn has, and even just as a trigger man on that line you have to think he puts up 50 points. It's been demonstrated that you don't need to be a first line talent to put up numbers on that line, you just need to fit in and I think he would nicely.
I get that his last two years with the Avs were incredibly frustrating, I get that he didn't overwhelm in Florida, but I think that if he was given a fair shake in today's Avalanche lineup he could put up some very respectable numbers at a low cost capwise.
Mueller might work until Backes or Seabrook come across the middle and concussion him into oblivion.
**** no on trading Duncan. I look at him as a young Hjalmarsson. He's exactly what we need and at worst I think he'll be on the big squad in 2015-16. If we can't sign and trade Stastny (which is unlikely) then we can't get Kesler and we might as well just resign Staz.
BobRossColton
Registered User
We should move stastny to the east if a trade might actually happen. What east teams could we trade well with?
Iracundia
Registered User
- Jun 19, 2011
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I'm with you on this one. Since Blake scrambled his eggs he's been mediocre in his stints with us and FLA. I think too many are reminiscing back to those 15 games in 09/10 while completely ignoring his post concussion stats.
If PAP was in Roy's doghouse for his floating ways, I could just imagine how fast Farris would be in it.
didn't know 4/1.5mil = 4
(your line-up a few posts up).
I wouldn't be against bringing in Mueller, but not at more than 1mil a year so that he can be buried in the minors with minimal cap-hit (like 50k or so)
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
The Mueller talk again. Sigh. If y'all like him so much why didn't you even watch him with team USA??
Dater and co, sorry I was vague there. I don't think your points are as far off as others are making it seem. The stats are interesting, I don't think you were presenting them as absolutes. One thing I notice in the year by year Stastny stats is that he's pretty right on for about 20 goals every year, it's the assists that fluctuate wildly. So in retaining him I'd feel pretty good about getting at least 20 goal production out of him. I think it's fair to ask if that's worth 6+M too. The lineup was better with him, his passing helped MacKinnon and he was good defensively. I don't think Stastny is a core piece but he's a very nice complimentary piece. That's part of the question too, what do you pay a complimentary piece, a very important one.
No on trading Siemens for a forward. That makes absolutely no sense. Why get rid of assets when they could just go after Vanek or Moulson, etc. Defense is what's holding us back, and then to get rid of one of the two who has some semblance of a realistic shot to make the top 4 in a couple years would be terrible.
Dater and co, sorry I was vague there. I don't think your points are as far off as others are making it seem. The stats are interesting, I don't think you were presenting them as absolutes. One thing I notice in the year by year Stastny stats is that he's pretty right on for about 20 goals every year, it's the assists that fluctuate wildly. So in retaining him I'd feel pretty good about getting at least 20 goal production out of him. I think it's fair to ask if that's worth 6+M too. The lineup was better with him, his passing helped MacKinnon and he was good defensively. I don't think Stastny is a core piece but he's a very nice complimentary piece. That's part of the question too, what do you pay a complimentary piece, a very important one.
No on trading Siemens for a forward. That makes absolutely no sense. Why get rid of assets when they could just go after Vanek or Moulson, etc. Defense is what's holding us back, and then to get rid of one of the two who has some semblance of a realistic shot to make the top 4 in a couple years would be terrible.
Avsboy
Registered User
- Dec 12, 2006
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I'm not convinced Siemens pans out, and even if he does that's the asking price for Kesler. Vanek is a one-dimensional floater who is going to Minnesota, Moulson is overrated, Iginla is too expensive and too old, and Camalleri is better but still lacks the grit and two way play of Kesler. Kesler is the perfect replacement for Stastny and at the right place of $5 million instead of $6+. PLUS, he is an Avs fan. Huge in my mind for retaining him at a fair price.
But obviously we should keep Siemens if possible, so potentially a signed Stastny or giving Vancouver the right to negotiate with him before a trade would be enough to get Kesler singlehandedly.
But obviously we should keep Siemens if possible, so potentially a signed Stastny or giving Vancouver the right to negotiate with him before a trade would be enough to get Kesler singlehandedly.
Siemens is actually playing really solid hockey from what I've seen. He just gets no PP time and the forwards in LE are garbage. He's a great skater and extremely physical. Pair that with sound defense and you have a solid top 4 dfd
Gigantor The Goalie
Speak for the Goalies
Can we please move past the Peter Mueller talk? He's not at all a replacement for anyone in the top 6. If the Panthers didn't see any value in retaining Mueller then why should we? I'd be fine with bringing in Mueller on a Try-Out contract though. Let him come to training camp and show he belongs. Don't want to waste a roster spot on him.
Drij
Registered User
- Mar 5, 2007
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WHC is not NHL. IE, Mack was useless also in the WHC.
Anyway, Mueller would be a good depth pickup. Sign him to a 1 year deal, nothing to lose if he sucks.
- Dec 4, 2002
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Did I read that correctly? You believe that the Avs could trade Stastny's rights to Vancouver, and get Kesler in return? For negotiating rights?
I apologize ahead of time if I misread that, but if I have the gist of your post, that's "a 3rd round pick" territory. Kesler ain't going anywhere for that.
Avsboy
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It was suggested by another Avs poster in the trade thread on Kesler. Not Stastny's rights but some kind of initial agreement between parties that Stastny will sign in Vancouver. I just went with it, not really sure if it's possible.
RockLobster
King in the North
Not saying I agree with Avsboy on this one, but I think he's saying either the Avs sign Stastny and then trade him, or allow the Canucks to work out an extension with him before hand and then trade him...not just trading his negotiating rights.
- Dec 2, 2007
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And the Vancouver fans laughed as much as we are.
It'd be like Montreal offering Vanek's negotiation rights for ROR.
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