Salary Cap: Implications of LTIR of players before the season

[Burke the Legend]

Right now, if we move Byron to LTIR, we got 21 players signed with a little over $1M in cap space. This with KK not signed yet. So we have no choice but to put Weber on LTIR before the season starts. Or like I said in another post... unless someone knows how to manage around this? Leafs had several guys on LTIR a few seasons ago and I believe they might have been 10% over the cap so they must have had an exemption from the NHL? Not sure

Yeah I think you get an exemption when it's obvious injury because we have seen that before multiple times where clubs move forward with deals despite breaching the 10% excess and LTIR technically not beginning until season starts.

I think it's a rule in place to prevent loophole shenanigans not so much to give an extra hard time to a club trying to put a team together while juggling a difficult injury situation (already a handicap)

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yeah I think you get an exemption when it's obvious injury because we have seen that before multiple times where clubs move forward with deals despite breaching the 10% excess and LTIR technically not beginning until season starts.

I think it's a rule in place to prevent loophole shenanigans not so much to give an extra hard time to a club trying to put a team together while juggling a difficult injury situation (already a handicap)

Probably different when you already have a guy that was on LTIR the season before too. Weber played the entire playoffs so not sure if we would be allowed but Bergevin has this answer from the NHL already.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Whoever created this thread... thank you! I think this is an interesting topic of discussion with our cap space and Weber possibly going on LTIR before the season starts. We also have several ELC at play and if they reach performance bonuses, it automatically gets deferred to next season. I believe we already have $600k from last year to absorb as well as Alzner's buyout hit

I find this part of the CBA vague and hard to understand all the little rules that are at play with it.

 

[LaP]

Does Weber want to deal with protocol of LTIR contracts and rehab for the next 4 years after this next one? For a total of $6M left to be paid when he has earned $126M? Possible if he is willing to deal with it but I think he might decide to call it quits and ride off in the sunset

Pretty sure the answer is yes. 6 millions might not seem a lot for someone who made as much money as Weber but people must realized he's just 35 and there's no guarantee for him after his career is over. He might invest some of his money and lose a lot. A life is long and i don'T see why anyone would pass on 6 millions to avoid LTIR protocol. Still think Weber goes on LTIR 100% i've been saying it for a while now.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Pretty sure the answer is yes. 6 millions might not seem a lot for someone who made as much money as Weber but people must realized he's just 35 and there's no guarantee for him after his career is over. He might invest some of his money and lose a lot. A life is long and i don'T see why anyone would pass on 6 millions to avoid LTIR protocol. Still think Weber goes on LTIR 100% i've been saying it for a while now.

If he feels like he can get away with it and the LTIR protocol is easy for him to deal with, he will!

 

[LaP]

Kind of what I'm thinking as well. No exemptions allowed but maybe Bergevin already knows cause he asked for the NHL to review this before the draft/free agency.

What I do know is we have 21 guys signed right now with -$2.2M in cap space and KK yet to be signed. That's what cap friendly is showing right now. So I believe we either have to make a trade or put Weber on LTIR before the season starts. Not sure we can pull it off with only moving Byron to LTIR. I've played with it on armchair GM cause it's accurate and it only works with Weber on LTIR before the season starts.

We can go 10% over the cap so until the first game it's not an issue. But yes we will need to put at least one guy on LTIR before the season starts.

 

[Habs Halifax]

We can go 10% over the cap so until the first game it's not an issue. But yes we will need to put at least one guy on LTIR before the season starts.

From what I can see, it has to be Weber. Byron don't work after you sign KK.

 

[montreal]

if you want a deeper dive, read this,

The NHL LTIR Explained -

 

[Habs Halifax]

if you want a deeper dive, read this,

The NHL LTIR Explained -

I've read that article and it's one of the better ones I have read. And then I see other points about ELC potential performance bonus getting deferred to the following season. It seems to be hard to nail down exactly cause there are so many factors that play into it

 

[mouser]

Probably different when you already have a guy that was on LTIR the season before too. Weber played the entire playoffs so not sure if we would be allowed but Bergevin has this answer from the NHL already.

Are there any reliable media reports that Bergevin already has a LTIR answer from the NHL?

Normally this couldn't occur until training camp starts and Weber fails his entry physical.

 

[CDN24]

It is complicated but having yo be into LTIR is not a good thing. The biggest downsides are

• You can't easily accrue cap space in year (you can play alitlle with getting as close to Cap as possible before putting on LTIR to minimze lost space if the person on LTIR's AAV exceeds the amount you are over cap by. This is why Leaf's reacquired Clarkson a few years ago when they already had Horton on LTIR tostart year with the max space possible but you can't accrue in year.
• Any bonus earned carries over to next year. Basically the LTIR space available is calculated using the bonus eligible players base salary not salary with bonus, as such there is no LTIR space available to cover the bonus and it can do nothing but carry forward.
• Interesting side bar, this rule is what got Peter Chiarelli fired in Boston IMO. He had Savard on LTIR and then signed an over 35 player (Iginla maybe) to a bonus laden contract thinking it would give him flexibility if needed at deadline. Had he straight up paid Iginla all salary then the salary would have been covered by Savards LTIR- as it was the bonus ended up as a carryforward Massive error by bruins back when LTIR wasn't fully understood as 2013-14 CBA was relatively new

 

[Habs Halifax]

Are there any reliable media reports that Bergevin already has a LTIR answer from the NHL?

Normally this couldn't occur until training camp starts and Weber fails his entry physical.

The only thing I heard is Bergevin asked the NHL for clarity on the issue and I believe that was before the draft/free agency. No news on that from what I heard but when you look at the contracts we signed, we have to put Weber on LTIR before the seasons starts to be under the cap. If not allowed, we have to make a trade.

Right now, you can move Byron on LTIR (maybe) and be under the cap. But KK has yet to be signed and after he is signed, we are over even with Byron on LTIR.

 

[Big Empty]

if you want a deeper dive, read this,

The NHL LTIR Explained -

This is an awesome article. Thank you.

Could we use the Training Camp Equation with Weber?

Our current cap hit is $86.27M If we put Weber’s 7.857M on LTIR, our ACSL is 78.2M. If I understand correctly, we’d be able to go over that 78.2M by Weber’s cap hit (7.857M) with him on LTIR. So we could have a cap hit of 86.27M and it would be legal

*This cap number is with KK signing at 2.5M

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

...still hoping that Bargain Bin puts any pressure he can on Poile in Smashville to re-acquire the Weber contract...the easiest solution for us is simply not to have it and Poile still may be worried about Cap Recapture if Weber retires early (which seems possible at this point)...

 

[CDN24]

Barring any other moves it looks like They will have to start the year in LTIR which I think precludes them from accruing or gaining cap space but notionally they may still be able to add salary. If someone knows more please correct me. Math will be easier when we know what KK's AAV is. For arguements sake lets say a 2 yr bridge at 2.895M AAV.

Current Space with players on Cap friendly roster 83,776,370 plus KK at 2,895,000 is 86,671,370.

Step 1 Byron on LTIR 3,400,00
Send Caufield and Romanov to Laval as they don't need waivers (don't worry they are coming back) That knocks 880,833 and 894,167 off the cap.

You are now using 81,496,370 of the 81,500,000 cap and have 3,630 of cap space.

That is your season opening roster and includes weber, then you put weber on LTIR and that gives you a notionally Webers 7,857,143 cap hit less the 3,630 of available cap as LTIR space or 7,853,513.
You use that space to bring Romanov/caufield back. using 881K and 894K. You have roughly 6M of Cap space left, enough for Byrons eventual return and callups as needed or a small add.

For this to work, KK's max salary is 2.895M. More wiggle room can be created by sending someone like Wideman or Paquette down like Romanov/Caufiled but they require waivers and you may lose them.

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

Barring any other moves it looks like They will have to start the year in LTIR which I think precludes them from accruing or gaining cap space but notionally they may still be able to add salary. If someone knows more please correct me. Math will be easier when we know what KK's AAV is. For arguements sake lets say a 2 yr bridge at 2.895M AAV.

Current Space with players on Cap friendly roster 83,776,370 plus KK at 2,895,000 is 86,671,370.

Step 1 Byron on LTIR 3,400,00
Send Caufield and Romanov to Laval as they don't need waivers (don't worry they are coming back) That knocks 880,833 and 894,167 off the cap.

You are now using 81,496,370 of the 81,500,000 cap and have 3,630 of cap space.

That is your season opening roster and includes weber, then you put weber on LTIR and that gives you a notionally Webers 7,857,143 cap hit less the 3,630 of available cap as LTIR space or 7,853,513.
You use that space to bring Romanov/caufield back. using 881K and 894K. You have roughly 6M of Cap space left, enough for Byrons eventual return and callups as needed or a small add.

For this to work, KK's max salary is 2.895M. More wiggle room can be created by sending someone like Wideman or Paquette down like Romanov/Caufiled but they require waivers and you may lose them.

The way I see it is quite similar but I will break it down to try and explain myself better.

Current cap hit for the Habs is $83,776,370
Cap hit with KK signed at $2,895,000 --> $86,671,370
This is legal given the Habs are allowed 10% over during the offseason before having to get down to the cap ceiling by game 1 $89,650,000

When they place Weber on LTIR, they will be relieved of his entire salary and it will create artificial cap room --> $86,671,370-Weber cap hit of $7,857,143 --> Season starts with $2,685,773 in available cap space due to LTIR (not real cap space, just temporary cap space for the entire season since he isn't coming back)

Unless Byron and the Habs plan on him missing the entire season, his LTIR value is moot, given the Habs will need to free up his LTIR money when he comes back. What also is unclear is if the Habs need to put Weber on LTIR, get the player they want and be back over the salary cap, then put Byron on. This is the part I lack information on is if two players go on LTIR, are they added together as of the moment they are on LTIR ($11,257,143) or will Byron take up the space create by Weber ($2,685,773) and then only leaving $714,227?

If I had more time, or a position with an NHL franchise, I am sure I could figure this out more but that's not the life I choose

 

[Fish on The Sand]

...still hoping that Bargain Bin puts any pressure he can on Poile in Smashville to re-acquire the Weber contract...the easiest solution for us is simply not to have it and Poile still may be worried about Cap Recapture if Weber retires early (which seems possible at this point)...

Nashville having Weber doesn't help them at all if he retires.

It's not like Weber is going to decide against retirement if Nashville holds his rights.

The only argument would be that by holding him for a couple seasons at lower salary it reduces their recapture liability, but even then, it wouldn't make sense for Weber to just sit out a couple of years and then retire.

The whole notion of Nashville re-aquiring Weber for recapture purposes just doesn't make any sense.

The only scenario where this would make any amount of sense would be if there was the opportunity for a compliance buy out. I don't see those happening any time soon though, so this idea of Weber to Nashville just doesn't make sense.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

...still hoping that Bargain Bin puts any pressure he can on Poile in Smashville to re-acquire the Weber contract...the easiest solution for us is simply not to have it and Poile still may be worried about Cap Recapture if Weber retires early (which seems possible at this point)...

We also have to pay up if Weber retires. A fraction (about 1/10), but still enough for Habs to ask Weber to remain on LTIR until his contract runs out.

 

[Adam Michaels]

He could have being a good trading asset at the TDL at 50% retained. Could even have been a solid 3rd line player for us next season at a lesser salary. Big body, good for 40pts.

I taught with his interest in analytics, Gorton would have grab a player who was top 10 GAx in the league last season:

View attachment 495837

Possible. But with a good chunk of the team that will be back in time for their next game (scheduled next Wednesday), they'd have no room for him, particularly on the cap. He has a $4M cap hit. But according to CapFriendly, his remaining cap hit right now is $2.28M, which the Habs still don't have room for.

 

[Mandalorian]

Possible. But with a good chunk of the team that will be back in time for their next game (scheduled next Wednesday), they'd have no room for him, particularly on the cap. He has a $4M cap hit. But according to CapFriendly, his remaining cap hit right now is $2.28M, which the Habs still don't have room for.

Don't we have some cap room with Toffoli, Dvorak and Edmunson out indefinitely? And Chiarot most likely trade will free some cap.
Could have take Armia spot on the 3rd/4th line and signed for 2.5-3M$ next year of flipped for a 2nd/3rd at TDL. He could even have made Dvorak expendable, he is still only 28. That would have freed 2M$+ on the cap.

 

[Mandalorian]

Advanced stats are sometime their worst enemy. Rask 9th and he just cleared waiver rofl

Interest in advanced stats doesn't mean taking all of them at face value. I mean what exactly is expected leader? Looks like one of those many highly subjective advanced stats.

I think it just means how much he scores vs the chances he gets. Meaning if he was put in a situation to shoot more/ get more scoring chances (or at least the average of what top 9 players get) he could be scoring more than average top 9 players. I mean he only averaged 14:27 TOI last year and only 6 of his 23 points were on the powerplay.

And he has better CF% and FF% 5vs5 than Armia and Dvorak this season. I know that Habs struggle to says the least this season tho, which can affect those stats.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Don't we have some cap room with Toffoli, Dvorak and Edmunson out indefinitely? And Chiarot most likely trade will free some cap.
Could have take Armia spot on the 3rd/4th line and signed for 2.5-3M$ next year of flipped for a 2nd/3rd at TDL. He could even have made Dvorak expendable, he is still only 28. That would have freed 2M$+ on the cap.

No. Because even though they are on IR, their cap hits still count. Being on IR only frees up a roster spot.

Only if you're placed on LTIR does your cap hit not count. Right now, only Weber and Byron are on LTIR, so their cap hits don't count.

 

[Mandalorian]

No. Because even though they are on IR, their cap hits still count. Being on IR only frees up a roster spot.

Only if you're placed on LTIR does your cap hit not count. Right now, only Weber and Byron are on LTIR, so their cap hits don't count.

Wasn't aware of this. Explains not picking him up then I guess.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Wasn't aware of this. Explains not picking him up then I guess.

Exactly. Habs are tight against the cap even with Weber and Byron on LTIR.

And Byron was itching closer to a return. He was practicing with the team before they placed him on the COVID Protocol list.

I imagine when he comes off it, they might give him more practices before activating him. And once he is, then his cap relief stops. So his cap hit counts against the cap again. And now the quarantine is 5 days, so players will be coming off the COVID List quicker.

 

[Scintillating10]

No. Because even though they are on IR, their cap hits still count. Being on IR only frees up a roster spot.

Only if you're placed on LTIR does your cap hit not count. Right now, only Weber and Byron are on LTIR, so their cap hits don't count.

What about Price's caphit?