Salary Cap: Implications of LTIR of players before the season

[HABitual Fan]

I have seen numerous mentions of how the money saved on Weber and possibly Drouin gets opened up to spend. From my understanding this is true, but if it is used to fully utilize the cap, the team would be unable to to accrue cap space for additions over the course of the season unless salary is traded. Can someone who has knowledge of this confirm or explain the various options open to the team in terms of placing the players on LTIR and the timing of such a move?

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[BLONG7]

I think the guys on the TB board are probably able to discuss this more than we are here....The Cap and LTIR are not simple things to figure out that's for sure...

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

You are allowed to go 10% over the cap in the off-season. This means the Habs can go to 89.65M. They would not be able to use the full cap hit of both Drouin and Weber should they both land on LTIR when the season starts.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You are allowed to go 10% over the cap in the off-season. This means the Habs can go to 89.65M. They would not be able to use the full cap hit of both Drouin and Weber should they both land on LTIR when the season starts.

Not entirely correct but mostly correct. If the player has long term issues, you can apply to the NHL to put them on LTIR before the season starts. Don't think we can do that with Drouin cause they said he is doing "much better" but we can with Weber cause his injuries are career threatening.

Then the daily cap space formula and accrued space is complicated to follow.

• If a team is cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, or uses LTIR at any point during the season, the LTIR Pool is the Cap Hit of the LTIR player less the team’s cap space when the player goes on LTIR. For example, if a player with a $4M Cap Hit goes on LTIR when the team has $100K of Cap Space, the LTIR pool is $3.9M ($4M-$0.1M). Because of this, team’s often make several roster moves right before a player goes on LTIR in order to be as close to the cap as possible, in order to maximize the LTIR Pool
• If a team cannot be cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, the LTIR Pool is the amount the team exceeds the Cap. For example, if a team is $3M over the Cap and places a player on LTIR with a $4M Cap Hit for the opening roster submission, the LTIR Pool is the $3M that the team exceeded the cap

But at the end of the day, you can't go over the cap by 10% right?

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

Not entirely correct but mostly correct. If the player has long term issues, you can apply to the NHL to put them on LTIR before the season starts. Don't think we can do that with Drouin cause they said he is doing "much better" but we can with Weber cause his injuries are career threatening.

Then the daily cap space formula and accrued space is complicated to follow.

• If a team is cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, or uses LTIR at any point during the season, the LTIR Pool is the Cap Hit of the LTIR player less the team’s cap space when the player goes on LTIR. For example, if a player with a $4M Cap Hit goes on LTIR when the team has $100K of Cap Space, the LTIR pool is $3.9M ($4M-$0.1M). Because of this, team’s often make several roster moves right before a player goes on LTIR in order to be as close to the cap as possible, in order to maximize the LTIR Pool
• If a team cannot be cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, the LTIR Pool is the amount the team exceeds the Cap. For example, if a team is $3M over the Cap and places a player on LTIR with a $4M Cap Hit for the opening roster submission, the LTIR Pool is the $3M that the team exceeded the cap

But at the end of the day, you can't go over the cap by 10% right?

It's a question of semantics at this point. From what I am reading and what you have posted means the Habs will likely make all the moves they can so that they can be at or above the cap before placing Weber on LTIR as it would be silly to lose cap space because he lands on LTIR before. Considering it appears Drouin will not return to LTIR given the few comments we are reading (maybe picked up by Seattle) the scenario is pretty clear that the Habs will spend up to the 10% they are allowed and then put Weber on LTIR, even if that means at the start of the season or before when they are allowed.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It's a question of semantics at this point. From what I am reading and what you have posted means the Habs will likely make all the moves they can so that they can be at or above the cap before placing Weber on LTIR as it would be silly to lose cap space because he lands on LTIR before. Considering it appears Drouin will not return to LTIR given the few comments we are reading (maybe picked up by Seattle) the scenario is pretty clear that the Habs will spend up to the 10% they are allowed and then put Weber on LTIR, even if that means at the start of the season or before when they are allowed.

Yes, I agree with this. It's a tricky situation for us at the moment. Bergevin has one year left and I feel Molson will wait to extend him (we will see). Bergevin does not want to go backwards, he wants to go up so he's going to look at adding players and he's got cap to spend. Exciting and scary at the same time.

$8M for 5 years on LTIR is the largest contract to go on LTIR yet. This is not good people cause it messes with our accured cap space.

Lets hope this is LTIR for one year and he returns for the playoffs and then retires. That's the best outcome we can hope for. Otherwise, we are stuck with that LTIR for 4 more years and we might have to pay an asset to move the contract. Blackhawks didn't like the Hossa situation

 

[mouser]

I would recommend reading through the LTIR FAQ at CapFriendly.

For invoking LTIR to start the season look at the two options of Basic Equation and Training-Camp Equation. The simple rule of thumb is teams either want to be as close to the cap as possible including the LTIR player, or over the as close as possible to the LTIR player's contract before using either option.

The biggest downsides to using LTIR is teams don't accumulate cap space, and any earned Performance Bonuses will automatically carry over to the next season cap.

LTIR FAQ - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

 

[HABitual Fan]

Basically, short of Weber retiring, the team cannot accrue cap space for the duration of his contract. The only out, is if Nashville is rebuilding and desire not to spend to the cap, and take him back to either put on LTIR or buy out the remainder of his contract, and then have a built in excuse for not spending to the cap, or take their chances with the cap recapture penalty over 3 seasons and allow him to retire as a Hab.

 

[Habs10Habs]

No, agree that they don’t want to, but, they may if Burgervan flexes the Weber retiring narrative.
To avoid the cap recapture penalties associated with Weber retiring, Nashville may be inclined to give up an asset and have Weber stay on LTIR.

It's in Bergevins's best interest if Weber doesn't retire. Since if he does, the Habs won't have access to his LTIR surplus. So I can't see him "flexing" on Nashville.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It's in Bergevins's best interest if Weber doesn't retire. Since if he does, the Habs won't have access to his LTIR surplus. So I can't see him "flexing" on Nashville.

LTIR contracts are not a good thing. There are lots of things you got to do to manage around them. It's a very complicated formula to manage and the Blackhawks hated it after dealing with that with Hossa for one year.

A few factors and I'm not going to pretend to know this like an expert.

* Contracts placed on LTIR before the season starts affects your accrued cap space during the season. That's not a positive.

* I noticed the Lightning traded for the Seabrook contract and I seen someone say something about this works for them cause they have no ELC with potential performance bones at play. Not sure how that exactly works.

* You can only go over the cap by 10% in the offseason. Right now we can put both Weber and Byron on LTIR but you can't spend their entire cap hits cause 10% of the cap is about $8M. Maybe you can ask the NHL for exemption on this but it has to be approved with Weber. It would not be approved with Byron.

 

[Habs10Habs]

LTIR contracts are not a good thing. There are lots of things you got to do to manage around them. It's a very complicated formula to manage and the Blackhawks hated it after dealing with that with Hossa for one year.

A few factors and I'm not going to pretend to know this like an expert.

* Contracts placed on LTIR before the season starts affects your accrued cap space during the season. That's not a positive.

* I noticed the Lightning traded for the Seabrook contract and I seen someone say something about this works for them cause they have no ELC with potential performance bones at play. Not sure how that exactly works.

* You can only go over the cap by 10% in the offseason. Right now we can put both Weber and Byron on LTIR but you can't spend their entire cap hits cause 10% of the cap is about $8M. Maybe you can ask the NHL for exemption on this but it has to be approved with Weber. It would not be approved with Byron.

They can be a good thing if used correctly. I don't see how the Blackhawks disliked Hossa's LTIR contract. Since they were able to flip it for a profit.

It shouldn't make a difference when it comes to ELC bonuses. Since you have to make sure you have the money to pay the full amount, regardless if the player reaches all the bonuses or not.

During the off season, players are not paid. So technically there are no LITR contracts. Plus I don't think we've received an answer yet, on if Weber is approved or not. I can't see why he wouldn't be approved though.

Correct, you can't or shouldn't spend all the cap space provided by Weber and Byron. We could still easily take on say a 5 mil salary, since I believe we still owe $800K from the carry over from last seasons ELC bonuses. Something we couldn't do if Weber retired.

 

[Habs Halifax]

They can be a good thing if used correctly. I don't see how the Blackhawks disliked Hossa's LTIR contract. Since they were able to flip it for a profit.

It shouldn't make a difference when it comes to ELC bonuses. Since you have to make sure you have the money to pay the full amount, regardless if the player reaches all the bonuses or not.

During the off season, players are not paid. So technically there are no LITR contracts. Plus I don't think we've received an answer yet, on if Weber is approved or not. I can't see why he wouldn't be approved though.

Correct, you can't or shouldn't spend all the cap space provided by Weber and Byron. We could still easily take on say a 5 mil salary, since I believe we still owe $800K from the carry over from last seasons ELC bonuses. Something we couldn't do if Weber retired.

If you feel like you got good knowledge on this, can you explain the original post? Like how we gain more cap space with Weber on LTIR vs retiring? Looking for complex but provided in a simple way type explanation?

 

[Habs10Habs]

If you feel like you got good knowledge on this, can you explain the original post? Like how we gain more cap space with Weber on LTIR vs retiring? Looking for complex but provided in a simple way type explanation?

I never said we'd gain more cap space. I said it was in Bergevin's best interests to keep Weber on LTIR.

1. We could use him as a trade chip for a team needing to fill cap space.
2. A year is a long time. IMO it's possible that Weber could return for the playoffs. (Yes I know we're a long shot lol)

The only negatives I can see, and I noticed that mouser pointed out earlier, so I'll quote him.

"The biggest downsides to using LTIR is teams don't accumulate cap space, and any earned Performance Bonuses will automatically carry over to the next season cap."

 

[Habs Halifax]

I never said we'd gain more cap space. I said it was in Bergevin's best interests to keep Weber on LTIR.

1. We could use him as a trade chip for a team needing to fill cap space.
2. A year is a long time. IMO it's possible that Weber could return for the playoffs. (Yes I know we're a long shot lol)

The only negatives I can see, and I noticed that mouser pointed out earlier, so I'll quote him.

"The biggest downsides to using LTIR is teams don't accumulate cap space, and any earned Performance Bonuses will automatically carry over to the next season cap."

That's what I said as well (Bolded part). Personally, I hope he retires because I don't consider this a positive. However, I think that Weber is going to rest till the new year and then decide if he wants to come back for one more playoff run and start to train again if he thinks his body can handle it. If the Habs are out before the deadline, I think we might trade that contract to a team that is willing to add him for the playoffs but also have a handshake agreement that he retires after this next season.

Does Weber want to deal with protocol of LTIR contracts and rehab for the next 4 years after this next one? For a total of $6M left to be paid when he has earned $126M? Possible if he is willing to deal with it but I think he might decide to call it quits and ride off in the sunset

 

[Habs10Habs]

That's what I said as well (Bolded part). Personally, I hope he retires because I don't consider this a positive. However, I think that Weber is going to rest till the new year and then decide if he wants to come back for one more playoff run and start to train again if he thinks his body can handle it. If the Habs are out before the deadline, I think we might trade that contract to a team that is willing to add him for the playoffs but also have a handshake agreement that he retires after this next season.

Does Weber want to deal with protocol of LTIR contracts and rehab for the next 4 years after this next one? For a total of $6M left to be paid when he has earned $126M? Possible if he is willing to deal with it but I think he might decide to call it quits and ride off in the sunset

That would be the easiest way to solve things for the Habs. I just can't see him doing it, without giving it one last try. That is another plus. If we're out of the playoff picture, and he is due to come back once the season ends. There would definitely be some interest from contending teams. I'm sure some kind of agreement like that would be in place. Especially since I can't see Weber playing for 1mil.

Agreed, at that point I can't see Weber wasting his time after this season, going through all the LTIR protocols. It's possible he could say screw it and retire right now or when the season starts. I think he'll collect his 3mil this year, rehab like crazy and see what happens after that.

As for the bolded part. That would only come into play really if we're a playoff contender. Since a lot of posters here don't believe we are. We'll be selling, not buying. So there really is no need to accumulate salary.

 

[Ryan O'Byrne]

So if it’s bad to use LTIR in the off season would it be better to just put Byron on LTIR and wait until season starts then LTIR Weber ?

 

[Habs Halifax]

That would be the easiest way to solve things for the Habs. I just can't see him doing it, without giving it one last try. That is another plus. If we're out of the playoff picture, and he is due to come back once the season ends. There would definitely be some interest from contending teams. I'm sure some kind of agreement like that would be in place. Especially since I can't see Weber playing for 1mil.

Agreed, at that point I can't see Weber wasting his time after this season, going through all the LTIR protocols. It's possible he could say screw it and retire right now or when the season starts. I think he'll collect his 3mil this year, rehab like crazy and see what happens after that.

I'm just trying to put myself in his shoes. I believe he cares about the Habs and he probably had a behind the scenes meeting with Bergevin to say that he needs to rest his body and he's leaning towards going on LTIR cause he's banged up with a lot of miles. They probably talked about the possibility of him coming back for one last playoff run if his body tells him he can but he needs rest before he can decide that. He basically told Bergevin to spend his cap hit.

 

[Habs Halifax]

So if it’s bad to use LTIR in the off season would it be better to just put Byron on LTIR and wait until season starts then LTIR Weber ?

I don't believe it's possible. If you place Byron on LTIR, we have 21 guys with $1.2M in cap space. Not enough to sign KK

I believe we are forced to put Weber on LTIR before the season starts. That ship has sailed... unless someone knows more about how to work around that? Didn't the Leafs have several LTIR contracts a few years ago and were more than 10% over the cap? Can you get exemptions from the NHL in these cases? Not sure

 

[Habs10Habs]

I'm just trying to put myself in his shoes. I believe he cares about the Habs and he probably had a behind the scenes meeting with Bergevin to say that he needs to rest his body and he's leaning towards going on LTIR cause he's banged up with a lot of miles. They probably talked about the possibility of him coming back for one last playoff run if his body tells him he can but he needs rest before he can decide that. He basically told Bergevin to spend his cap hit.

I've actually been doing the same thing. I agree, he seems like the type of person who would do what is best for the team. I wouldn't blame him if that was the case. The word is used a lot, but the man is a warrior. Who has put his body through hell for many years. He may truly be done, in that case, keeping him on LITR wouldn't help the Habs. I don't think he's done yet, so I still consider him to be an asset. I'm sure Bergevin and him have had many discussions. By going on LITR this year, he's allowing Bergevin to keep his options open.

 

[NORiculous]

Does Weber want to deal with protocol of LTIR contracts and rehab for the next 4 years after this next one? For a total of $6M left to be paid when he has earned $126M? Possible if he is willing to deal with it but I think he might decide to call it quits and ride off in the sunset

Weber seems like the kind of guy that would do that for the team, no matter what kind of money is involved.
The real question IMO is, do the Habs keep Weber or do they trade him back to NSH.

 

[Ryan O'Byrne]

Let’s say they sign KK for 2 years $2M AAV then put Caufield in Ahl at end of training camp as a paper move then LTIR Weber and call him back up ?

 

[Burke the Legend]

Not entirely correct but mostly correct. If the player has long term issues, you can apply to the NHL to put them on LTIR before the season starts. Don't think we can do that with Drouin cause they said he is doing "much better" but we can with Weber cause his injuries are career threatening.

Then the daily cap space formula and accrued space is complicated to follow.

• If a team is cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, or uses LTIR at any point during the season, the LTIR Pool is the Cap Hit of the LTIR player less the team’s cap space when the player goes on LTIR. For example, if a player with a $4M Cap Hit goes on LTIR when the team has $100K of Cap Space, the LTIR pool is $3.9M ($4M-$0.1M). Because of this, team’s often make several roster moves right before a player goes on LTIR in order to be as close to the cap as possible, in order to maximize the LTIR Pool
• If a team cannot be cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, the LTIR Pool is the amount the team exceeds the Cap. For example, if a team is $3M over the Cap and places a player on LTIR with a $4M Cap Hit for the opening roster submission, the LTIR Pool is the $3M that the team exceeded the cap

But at the end of the day, you can't go over the cap by 10% right?

Yes I think at a certain point the NHL has a special LTIR consideration for vets who have career ending injury situations but still contract years remaining. They basically get put on a permanent LTIR list and there's no constant evaluation of whether they are returning or not. We have seen this recently with Pronger, Savard, Horton, Datsyuk, Hossa, etc.

With Weber right now the situation is still vague (to us) whether its permanent or not, Bergevin hinted at it so its clearly being evaluated, and seems to be the likely outcome.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yes I think at a certain point the NHL has a special LTIR consideration for vets who have career ending injury situations but still contract years remaining. They basically get put on a permanent LTIR list and there's no constant evaluation of whether they are returning or not. We have seen this recently with Pronger, Savard, Horton, Datsyuk, Hossa, etc.

With Weber right now the situation is still vague (to us) whether its permanent or not, Bergevin hinted at it so its clearly being evaluated, and seems to be the likely outcome.

Right now, if we move Byron to LTIR, we got 21 players signed with a little over $1M in cap space. This with KK not signed yet. So we have no choice but to put Weber on LTIR before the season starts. Or like I said in another post... unless someone knows how to manage around this? Leafs had several guys on LTIR a few seasons ago and I believe they might have been 10% over the cap so they must have had an exemption from the NHL? Not sure

 

[LaP]

Not entirely correct but mostly correct. If the player has long term issues, you can apply to the NHL to put them on LTIR before the season starts. Don't think we can do that with Drouin cause they said he is doing "much better" but we can with Weber cause his injuries are career threatening.

Then the daily cap space formula and accrued space is complicated to follow.

• If a team is cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, or uses LTIR at any point during the season, the LTIR Pool is the Cap Hit of the LTIR player less the team’s cap space when the player goes on LTIR. For example, if a player with a $4M Cap Hit goes on LTIR when the team has $100K of Cap Space, the LTIR pool is $3.9M ($4M-$0.1M). Because of this, team’s often make several roster moves right before a player goes on LTIR in order to be as close to the cap as possible, in order to maximize the LTIR Pool
• If a team cannot be cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, the LTIR Pool is the amount the team exceeds the Cap. For example, if a team is $3M over the Cap and places a player on LTIR with a $4M Cap Hit for the opening roster submission, the LTIR Pool is the $3M that the team exceeded the cap

But at the end of the day, you can't go over the cap by 10% right?

Don't think the NHL would allow it this off season as Weber played in the scf and looked good. If he doesn't play at all this year they would probably allow it next off season.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Don't think the NHL would allow it this year as Weber played in the scf and looked good. If he doesn't play at all this year they would probably allow it next off season.

Kind of what I'm thinking as well. No exemptions allowed but maybe Bergevin already knows cause he asked for the NHL to review this before the draft/free agency.

What I do know is we have 21 guys signed right now with -$2.2M in cap space and KK yet to be signed. That's what cap friendly is showing right now. So I believe we either have to make a trade or put Weber on LTIR before the season starts. Not sure we can pull it off with only moving Byron to LTIR. I've played with it on armchair GM cause it's accurate and it only works with Weber on LTIR before the season starts.