I'll Gladly Pay You Tuesday for a CBA Today (CBA & Lockout Discussion) - Part X

[Crease]

rough math puts cap in this proposal by nhlpa at 65.6 million. theyll probably want a cap on escrow as well, but getting their full contract is within reach this year if this deal was to be signed

52% in Year 1 would require 9.62% growth from last year's revenues to guarantee the players get their full share (1.88B). Not realistic IMO.

If they assume 5.5% YoY growth in revenues, they could get their full share (1.88B) with the following splits:

Year 1: 54/46
Year 2: 51/49

 

[CerebralGenesis]

Those sound too middle-ground. I expect much worse

 

[SuperUnknown]

Someone will have to explain how they can go 52-48 and keep full contract value (unless the players are okay taking a escrow clawback the first year).

 

[ThirtyFive]

On a side note, kudos to the thread title! Made me laugh, which I needed in the worst way.

Not to sound snobbish or anything, but I wonder how many will miss the reference?

 

[Crows*]

Someone will have to explain how they can go 52-48 and keep full contract value (unless the players are okay taking a escrow clawback the first year).

Yeah I don't get it. Unless the pa is reccomending some different type of mechanism to pay out contracts.

Why not split it between revenue sharing and from the players as the nhl proposed. " shared sacrifice"

 

[JAX]

Take it for what it's Worth but bill waters was just on Vancouver radio saying that owners called Bettman after their last proposal ( not the 50-50) and told him to not go any further. He thinks the season is gone and that fehrs priority is himself first and the players second. Says fehr doesn't care about the game and will shut down the season for his own ego.

Yes bill waters is a Bettman guy but his pessimism and disdain for fehr was crazy.

I certainly agree with waters on Fehr. Fehr is in the business of Donald Fehr not doing what's best for the players or the game, shutting down hockey for a year to him is nothing and I'll bet he already assumed that was going to happen until the NHL threw another offer at him. He will serve his koolaid to the players saying what a bad deal this is but I'm sure the players can see this is an offer that can be worked with.

 

[Ari91]

Some really interesting comments in this article.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=407606&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Shane hnidy

"Now that I am out of the game, I would gladly go back and play the 2004-05 season for 24 per cent of my salary," explained Hnidy. "When you're playing you think you will play forever. From the players I have talked to around the league, it seems about 26 years of age and under are willing to wait it out, 26 and over want to get a deal done by negotiating off the NHL offer. It seems some players feel playing an 82-game season is the one non-negotiable item in the proposal. Get the best deal you can in the next week and accept that any way you cut it, you will be giving something back. There are players wondering why they did not put forth a proposal forcing the NHL to negotiate off their offer."

Also on H and L was Jets captain Andrew Ladd. And credit Ladd for coming on at a time when fans are very critical of players. The only numbers fans care about are 50/50, and 82 games. "It's easy to get excited from a fans' standpoint. But the offer affects us in a negative way," said Ladd. "Things we got in the last negotiation, the owners want back. There is lots of talk among the guys I skated with today. Fans who call us greedy are entitled to their opinion, but they should look at the details of what is in the proposal and how we get to 50/50 – by giving up 12.3 per cent. We gave enough of a rollback last time. We all hope whatever the agreement is, it will be long term and we will not have to go through these issues going forward."


Ladd didn't feel the age of players changes the player's stance, referring to veteran Adrian Aucoin who feels that the older players battled for them in the last negotiation and they will battle for younger players in this one. Ladd feels the NHLPA counter offer will work off both the NHL offer and some of the ideas the players feel can help going forward. "Question is how will the owners react to that? Will they negotiate or is it a take it or leave it offer?"

Ladd wasn't sure if the players were close to a proposal of their own prior to Monday. Ideas were being thrown around but nothing concrete. Around the NHL that was the topic that seemed to bring different answers. From what Ladd had to say to others the feeling is the NHLPA did have an offer ready to be presented.

Asked for a message to fans, Ladd responded with "it's a negotiation. There will be ups and downs. Stay patient."

I'll admit that very early on, I've been guilty of throwing out the greed retort against both sides but it was out of exasperation. I know both sides are looking for a deal that is in their best interests. We look at hockey as a sport but it's still a business and the people involved in the operations have to handle business, even if it is at the inconvenience of the fans who wait eagerly for each hockey season to start.

I love Ladd's response because it's honest. There's no cliche comments about 'we just want to play', 'we care about the fans', etc. I have never held it against the players for wanting to negotiating the best possible deal for themselves, but I've never appreciate the PR pandering and I'm glad that Ladd didn't try to use it.

 

[trueblue9441]

52% in Year 1 would require 9.62% growth from last year's revenues to guarantee the players get their full share (1.88B). Not realistic IMO.

If they assume 5.5% YoY growth in revenues, they could get their full share (1.88B) with the following splits:

Year 1: 54/46
Year 2: 51/49

players share last year was 1.69 billion was it not? that's all the players are entitled to. perhaps that's the number they are working off of, making the 65.6 million cap feasible.

 

[Phil Parent]

Sorry to burst the bubble that I helped inflate but apparently that wasn't info from the meeting, more of a prediction by Ron.The players haven't leaked anything from their offer.

But they did air an interview with Mathieu Darche. He said that the offer was "Less Bad" than the first one but never said the word "Better", he also said it was "steps towards us".

He said that the owners made no concessions in this last offer because it was only better than their first offer, and worse than the last CBA. Said that after giving so much last time, the players do not want to give up much today otherwise the owners will keep coming back to the well every CBA negociation.

On whether or not the last offer would be used as basis for their own offer, Darche said "We see the numbers differently".

He said that they wanted the league to respect the current contracts. He also said that 50/50 was a "small" detail and that many things were a part of it.

He said that "escrow and rollback are the same thing for us"

He also said that "if the owners can lock us out and take back our salaries, we can go on strike and ask for a raise"

Finally, there will be many players in attendance in the meeting tomorrow, expected to be there are Toews, Stamkos and Crosby, amongst others.

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

If that was true (and I doubt it is) there would be a deal tomorrow.

Agreed, 2% difference at this stage would be a sign a deal is imminent. I am sure the NHL would offer to meet in the middle and would easily accept a 51-49 split in year 1 if it means 50-50 shortly after.

 

[Riptide]

players share last year was 1.69 billion was it not? That's all the players are entitled to. Perhaps that's the number they are working off of, making the 65.6 million cap feasible.

1.87b

 

[trueblue9441]

1.87b

no, that would be for the cap number for the 2012-2013 under the CBA that expired. the players are not entitled to that.

 

[SuperUnknown]

Also on H and L was Jets captain Andrew Ladd. And credit Ladd for coming on at a time when fans are very critical of players. The only numbers fans care about are 50/50, and 82 games. "It's easy to get excited from a fans' standpoint. But the offer affects us in a negative way," said Ladd. "Things we got in the last negotiation, the owners want back. There is lots of talk among the guys I skated with today. Fans who call us greedy are entitled to their opinion, but they should look at the details of what is in the proposal and how we get to 50/50 – by giving up 12.3 per cent. We gave enough of a rollback last time. We all hope whatever the agreement is, it will be long term and we will not have to go through these issues going forward."

Maybe because when you make $1M to $5M per year financed by people making on average 40-50k per year, you ARE being greedy complaining when in the end you'll still end up making 20x to 100x more than the paying fans in the stands.

Back in the 60s-70s, the players were being exploited and it wasn't right, but the players crying right now about just receiving 50% are out to lunch, they're still exploiting the owners, not the other way around.

When you have it good as the pro sports players have it, you shouldn't complain and demand something which is clearly irrational for the paying fans.

 

[Riptide]

no, that would be for the cap number for the 2012-2013 under the CBA that expired. the players are not entitled to that.

That is what they were paid last year in salaries.

Edit. Turns out I was wrong. 1.762 is what was paid out in salaries (as per capgeek) in 2012/13.

 

[trueblue9441]

That is what they were paid last year in salaries.

if the cap was 64.3 million and the midpoint 56.3 million, how do you figure that?

 

[The Shrike]

Carrying over from the last thread:

Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
Per Ron Fournier on 98,5FM in Montreal who takes the info from Martin Maguire who is covering the PA meeting...

- Counter-offer tomorrow is official.
- Thought to be 52-48, 51-49, 50-50, 50-50, 50-50, 50-50
- Players reject the "Make Whole" thing, want full contract value paid.
- Players want HRR as it was in last CBA

I don't know who any of those guys are but i hope this proposal is somewhat accurate.

Sounds good, but the NHLPA should release the offer to the public via their website at the exact moment Fehr presents it to Gary.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Sorry to burst the bubble that I helped inflate but apparently that wasn't info from the meeting, more of a prediction by Ron.The players haven't leaked anything from their offer.

But they did air an interview with Mathieu Darche. He said that the offer was "Less Bad" than the first one but never said the word "Better", he also said it was "steps towards us".

He said that the owners made no concessions in this last offer because it was only better than their first offer, and worse than the last CBA. Said that after giving so much last time, the players do not want to give up much today otherwise the owners will keep coming back to the well every CBA negociation.

On whether or not the last offer would be used as basis for their own offer, Darche said "We see the numbers differently".

He said that they wanted the league to respect the current contracts. He also said that 50/50 was a "small" detail and that many things were a part of it.

He said that "escrow and rollback are the same thing for us"

He also said that "if the owners can lock us out and take back our salaries, we can go on strike and ask for a raise"

Finally, there will be many players in attendance in the meeting tomorrow, expected to be there are Toews, Stamkos and Crosby, amongst others.

Figured as much.
Oh well, as i said, it was a fun couple of days.

The players make it sound like they should've been paid MORE over the last 8 years. Kinda nutty.

 

[Crows*]

Sorry to burst the bubble that I helped inflate but apparently that wasn't info from the meeting, more of a prediction by Ron.The players haven't leaked anything from their offer.

But they did air an interview with Mathieu Darche. He said that the offer was "Less Bad" than the first one but never said the word "Better", he also said it was "steps towards us".

He said that the owners made no concessions in this last offer because it was only better than their first offer, and worse than the last CBA. Said that after giving so much last time, the players do not want to give up much today otherwise the owners will keep coming back to the well every CBA negociation.

On whether or not the last offer would be used as basis for their own offer, Darche said "We see the numbers differently".

He said that they wanted the league to respect the current contracts. He also said that 50/50 was a "small" detail and that many things were a part of it.

He said that "escrow and rollback are the same thing for us"

He also said that "if the owners can lock us out and take back our salaries, we can go on strike and ask for a raise"

Finally, there will be many players in attendance in the meeting tomorrow, expected to be there are Toews, Stamkos and Crosby, amongst others.

That is bleak bleak news

 

[Crease]

Sorry to burst the bubble that I helped inflate but apparently that wasn't info from the meeting, more of a prediction by Ron.The players haven't leaked anything from their offer.

But they did air an interview with Mathieu Darche. He said that the offer was "Less Bad" than the first one but never said the word "Better", he also said it was "steps towards us".

"Less Bad".

He said that the owners made no concessions in this last offer because it was only better than their first offer, and worse than the last CBA. Said that after giving so much last time, the players do not want to give up much today otherwise the owners will keep coming back to the well every CBA negociation.

Really hate this argument. It has no legs.

Finally, there will be many players in attendance in the meeting tomorrow, expected to be there are Toews, Stamkos and Crosby, amongst others.

Never quite understand why the media reports these things. All that matters is that is that Bettman Daly and the Fehrs are present. Although I'd love to see Toews or Crosby present the powerpoint, that would be popcorn worthy.

 

[Satoru Gojo]

Carrying over from the last thread:

Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
Per Ron Fournier on 98,5FM in Montreal who takes the info from Martin Maguire who is covering the PA meeting...

- Counter-offer tomorrow is official.
- Thought to be 52-48, 51-49, 50-50, 50-50, 50-50, 50-50
- Players reject the "Make Whole" thing, want full contract value paid.
- Players want HRR as it was in last CBA

I don't know who any of those guys are but i hope this proposal is somewhat accurate.

Way to much gain for the players, doubt the league will even work with that.

 

[Ari91]

Maybe because when you make $1M to $5M per year financed by people making on average 40-50k per year, you ARE being greedy complaining when in the end you'll still end up making 20x to 100x more than the paying fans in the stands.

Back in the 60s-70s, the players were being exploited and it wasn't right, but the players crying right now about just receiving 50% are out to lunch, they're still exploiting the owners, not the other way around.

When you have it good as the pro sports players have it, you shouldn't complain and demand something which is clearly irrational for the paying fans.

You have to keep in mind that the players are working off of their previous 57% share from the last CBA. Some may agree that that CBA is dead and the players shouldn't let the previous percentage interfere with their ability to negotiate new percentages, but this is what the PA is doing and as long as they look at 57%, they'll look at the situation as how much money they'll make versus how much money they could have made because they've already had a taste of 57% and it was so good that they wanted to keep it going as long as the league would bare to pay them at that percentage. Unfortunately for them, the league decided that they won't bare it any longer.

 

[JAX]

Sorry to burst the bubble that I helped inflate but apparently that wasn't info from the meeting, more of a prediction by Ron.The players haven't leaked anything from their offer.

But they did air an interview with Mathieu Darche. He said that the offer was "Less Bad" than the first one but never said the word "Better", he also said it was "steps towards us".

He said that the owners made no concessions in this last offer because it was only better than their first offer, and worse than the last CBA. Said that after giving so much last time, the players do not want to give up much today otherwise the owners will keep coming back to the well every CBA negociation.

On whether or not the last offer would be used as basis for their own offer, Darche said "We see the numbers differently".

He said that they wanted the league to respect the current contracts. He also said that 50/50 was a "small" detail and that many things were a part of it.

He said that "escrow and rollback are the same thing for us"

He also said that "if the owners can lock us out and take back our salaries, we can go on strike and ask for a raise"

Finally, there will be many players in attendance in the meeting tomorrow, expected to be there are Toews, Stamkos and Crosby, amongst others.

That's what I realistically expected, Fehr will have a brainwashing session and then the players will be beating the drum on how bad the deal is for them etc.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

If I was Fehr, I'd offer something like this:
Delink from revenue for 3 years. Freeze the cap.
After three years, PA can renew linkage at 52.
In return, I'd ask for UFA at 25 or 5 years.

 

[mouser]

That is what they were paid last year in salaries.

That's what their total compensation was including salaries and benefits.

if the cap was 64.3 million and the midpoint 56.3 million, how do you figure that?

The player share isn't determined by the cap. The cap is set based on the prior year's HRR, but the actual HRR is calculated after each season to determine how big the player's share of HRR is.

 

[Sergei Berezin]

Maybe because when you make $1M to $5M per year financed by people making on average 40-50k per year, you ARE being greedy complaining when in the end you'll still end up making 20x to 100x more than the paying fans in the stands.

Back in the 60s-70s, the players were being exploited and it wasn't right, but the players crying right now about just receiving 50% are out to lunch, they're still exploiting the owners, not the other way around.

When you have it good as the pro sports players have it, you shouldn't complain and demand something which is clearly irrational for the paying fans.

Yup, that's it right there.


They're crying about how it's not fair that they're not getting what they deserve.

You wanna talk about getting what you deserve Joffrey Lupul and Andrew Ladd? Go save someones life every day. Then you can come back to us and say, "Hey, I want more of the pie"... until then, just take what you can get and move on. It's a dream job that millions would kill for and they're all taking it for granted.

Sickens me as someone who dreamed of one day playing in that league more than as a fan.