If the Top 100 players All-time list is redone today, where does McDavid's career place him?

NyQuil

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Dirt 101 said:
4-time Selke finalist, 5-time Stanley Cup winner with 130+ playoff points and ****ing up the opposition on most shifts.

So he didn't actually win any individual awards? He played on some of the most stacked teams of the 80s and early 90s?

Basically it comes down to a single question for me:

Was Esa Tikkanen ever in the discussion as the best hockey player in the world at any given time?

No?

Next.
 

Fourier

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If you wanna talk regular season against the Panthers, Coyotes and the Wild. Ugh.

In contrast, Tikki is/was a playoff warrior. When the rubber hit the road, he tore it up!
I was an Oiler season ticket holder during the glory years. I cannot imagine putting Tikkanen ahead of McDavid. Longevity of course matters in this, but I would say that McDavid has quite easily established himself as the second best Oiler ever. If he quit today it would be perfectly reasonable to argue over Messier, Kurri and Coffey. Anderson is often underrated but I'd be hard pressed to put him ahead of McDavid even with the shortened career. Anderson's peak was over a period of only about 8 years. His playoff success is significant but he was never close to the best player in the league. But I see no argument for Tikkanen.
 
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authentic

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With a few good playoff performances and continuing a similar regular season resume to Crosby he'll be ranked easily in the top 10, as of now I would hesitate to have him top 20 all time with not one single great playoff run.
 

jigglysquishy

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For what it's worth, in the entire history of the NHL only 7 players have had a Vsx season of 150 or higher.

Howie Morenz
Gordie Howe
Phil Esposito
Bobby Orr
Wayne Gretzky
Mario Lemieux
Conner McDavid

Pretty elite company. Jagr couldn't do it. Bobby Hull couldn't do it. Crosby or Ovechkin couldn't do it.

Maybe it says more about this season being an asterisks than anything.
 

Sentinel

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I don't think this needs a disservice of Tikkanen. Esa was absolutely dynamite to those teams. However, Tikkanen is a complimentary player. At his best, he was a world class complimentary player. But he was just that. McDavid is a core piece and most likely the best core piece of his generation. These two do not warrant a comparison.
"Best core piece of his generation"? A core of what, exactly? Of his team? What did his team accomplished with him at its core?

On the Tikka vs. McDavid:
Tikkanen > McD in playoffs, Tikkanen <<<< McD in the RS.

Overall, I'd rank McDavid's career in the top 50 at this point. To me, he has already overtaken Dionne as the "best player without the Cup."
 

silkyjohnson50

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Sometimes you’d never know that McDavid is over a p/g in the playoffs so far. It’s almost like a good team goes a long ways to playoff success.
 
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The Macho King

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Sometimes you’d never know that McDavid is over a p/g in the playoffs so far. It’s almost like a good team goes a long ways to playoff success.
He put up a lot of empty calorie points against Chicago in a series that should have been a sweep the other way.

Has he been a ppg or better in any series except for that Chicago one?
 

K Fleur

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He put up a lot of empty calorie points against Chicago in a series that should have been a sweep the other way.

Has he been a ppg or better in any series except for that Chicago one?

He was exactly a ppg against the Jets this playoffs (1 goal 3 assists in 4 games). Buuuut it's hard to look at that as much of a postive when you realize he scored 22 points in 9 games(2.44ppg) while his team went 7-2 against the Jets in the regular season.
 

blogofmike

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Remember that time Esa Tikkanen missed the empty net against Detroit in the 98 Finals?

He didn't really miss, he just threw away his shot like a 1700s duellist, because it was the only way those losers Fedorov, Yzerman and Lidstrom would have a chance of joining Mighty Esa as back-to-back Cup winners.
 
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Theokritos

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Esa tikkanen better than McDavid? Oh lord.....

For the record, I don't think anyone is saying Tikkanen was the better player. Just that he had the better career than McDavid so far. (Which BTW I also disagree with if we're talking about career as in individual accomplishment as opposed to team accomplishment.)
 

tarheelhockey

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Saying he's 90th or 70th sounds like an insult, but consider how fast he's going to move up the list as he adds career achievements.

When we did the top-200, he was a one-time Hart winner. That put him in a category with a bunch of players who either just barely squeaked into the list of 200, or didn't make it at all.

He JUST won his second Hart, which puts him in a category with players ranked as low as #87 (Bill Cowley) and #92 (Nels Stewart).

If he were to win a third Hart, he would be in a category where the lowest ranked player is Bobby Clarke #29). And a fourth would put him against #19 Eddie Shore, looking up only at Gretzky and Howe.

Similar effects will follow from scoring titles, Cups, Smythes, etc. It's not just possible but likely that a prime-aged superstar rockets up the list 10 spots per season, because the separation just isn't that large between each player. It's not till you hit the top-30 or so that it starts getting hard to advance, and then very hard within the top-10, and then almost unachievable in the top-5.
 

jigglysquishy

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For what it's worth, in the entire history of the NHL only 7 players have had a Vsx season of 150 or higher.

Howie Morenz
Gordie Howe
Phil Esposito
Bobby Orr
Wayne Gretzky
Mario Lemieux
Conner McDavid

Pretty elite company. Jagr couldn't do it. Bobby Hull couldn't do it. Crosby or Ovechkin couldn't do it.

Maybe it says more about this season being an asterisks than anything.

I dug deeper on this

Howe x1
Esposito x2
Orr x 1 (Esposito and Orr did it in the same season on the same team)
Gretzky x5
Lemieux never actually did it, but was on "pace" to do it x3 (1988-89, 1992-93, 1995-96)
McDavid x1

So it's only been accomplished 10 times in NHL history. Lemieux played at that level for at least three seasons, so we've had this "level of play" 13 times in 104 NHL seasons.

The Big Four (and Espo) represent 12 of the 13 occurrences of it happening ever. Elite company is putting it mildly.

Edit: Bobby Orr had a VsX of 134 in 1973-74, so he only did it once. Funny enough, his 1974-75 season (where he won the Art Ross) was "only" 112. Both were less than his mind boggling 154 in 1970-71.

Morenz also never did it. His peak season was 146. Still insane, but for the sake of transparency have removed it since it wasn't at my mentioned 150.

So McDavid is the only one outside the Big Four and Espo to do it.
 
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GMR

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Saying he's 90th or 70th sounds like an insult, but consider how fast he's going to move up the list as he adds career achievements.

When we did the top-200, he was a one-time Hart winner. That put him in a category with a bunch of players who either just barely squeaked into the list of 200, or didn't make it at all.

He JUST won his second Hart, which puts him in a category with players ranked as low as #87 (Bill Cowley) and #92 (Nels Stewart).

If he were to win a third Hart, he would be in a category where the lowest ranked player is Bobby Clarke #29). And a fourth would put him against #19 Eddie Shore, looking up only at Gretzky and Howe.

Similar effects will follow from scoring titles, Cups, Smythes, etc. It's not just possible but likely that a prime-aged superstar rockets up the list 10 spots per season, because the separation just isn't that large between each player. It's not till you hit the top-30 or so that it starts getting hard to advance, and then very hard within the top-10, and then almost unachievable in the top-5.
If he didn't get hurt last season, he'd already have a 3rd Hart.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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in tikkanen's favour, i would argue that he might have been the best LW in the league for a few years of his edmonton prime

his first full year is 1987, where he's third team all-star behind goulet and robitaille, fifth in LW points (behind those two and mats naslund and walt poddubny), leads LWs in even strength scoring, ninth overall in ES points, follows it up with cup run where his offensive production was pedestrian but (i assume) his defensive contributions were high

1988, pretty far down the regular season LW scoring list, but gets put on the PP in the playoffs and explodes for 27 points in the cup run, which at the time was tied with mahovlich for third highest LW playoff point total ever (and still is seventh all time)

1989, his best offensive season (on a line with kurri and jimmy carson) but he missed thirteen games, second for the selke

1990, the regular season offence dips, but he's third for the selke again, but the cup run, oh my the cup run. five points in the last three games of the first round to come back from a 3-1 deficit, shuts down gretzky and outscores him four points to one in a sweep of LA, and ends up with 13 goals and 24 points while being the primary matchup guy against hawerchuk, then gretzky, then savard, then craig janney (which effectively shut down peak unstoppable cam neely). if tik had won the conn smythe i don't think people would have complained.

1991, another pedestrian offensive regular season, but another selke runner up. at this point there's no kurri and not a whole lot of messier. tikkanen is the main guy and this is his best playoff run. he basically singlehandedly wins game seven against the flames in the first round (hat trick, including the OT winner), outscores gretzky again in round two (on a line with klima and anatoli semenov—in a much closer series, tik assists on klima's game two OT winner, scores the game three OT winner, and scores the late third period tying goal to send it to OT). then the oilers run out of steam and get upset by the north stars in the third round.

so that's tikkanen's five year peak. it's a weak time for the LW position, coinciding with the end of goulet's prime and just the very beginning of kevin stevens's, and most people would call robitaille the clear best LW in the game those years. four first team all-stars and a second, never scored less than 45 goals or finished outside the top ten in goals. but if you said it was tikkanen i don't think you'd be wrong. three twenty-point playoff runs, and an arc where he transitions from basically prime alex burrows to by 1991 playoff fedorov.

all that said, you can't compare those five years, absolutely great and imo HHOF-worthy as they were, to these five years where mcdavid was the best player in the world. you just can't.
 

tarheelhockey

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If he didn't get hurt last season, he'd already have a 3rd Hart.

Yep, and I think it tells us a lot when we take the vsX=150 list and overlap it with the 3x Hart list.

Bolded are players who have the crazy-high peak season AND three Harts:

Morenz
Howe
Orr
Gretzky
Lemieux
Shore
Esposito
Ovechkin
McDavid

McDavid's narrow misses in 2019 and 2020 are the only thing keeping him off the bold-name list. The same could be said of Esposito who had multiple finalist seasons. I'm not sure how close Ovechkin was to making the vsX=150 list but I don't think it was very close.

Anyway, this seems like an easy way to identify the all-time heavy hitters for peak value. McDavid's right in there already, and at age 24 you have to think he'll solidify this part of his profile (unless something goes way off the rails, god forbid).
 

Sentinel

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The thing with players like Tikkanen, Claude Lemieux, Toews, etc. is how much they step up their production and overall play in playoffs, as opposed to regular season. McDavid's production drops (none more glaringly than in this year's playoffs), same as Dionne, Thornton, and, I believe, early Crosby and Datsyuk (those two rectified that issue). If McDavid is a true elite hockey player, he will find the way to overcome this obstacle. Otherwise he will forever be in Dionne's league.
 

jigglysquishy

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Yep, and I think it tells us a lot when we take the vsX=150 list and overlap it with the 3x Hart list.

Bolded are players who have the crazy-high peak season AND three Harts:

Morenz
Howe
Orr
Gretzky
Lemieux
Shore

Esposito
Ovechkin
McDavid

McDavid's narrow misses in 2019 and 2020 are the only thing keeping him off the bold-name list. The same could be said of Esposito who had multiple finalist seasons. I'm not sure how close Ovechkin was to making the vsX=150 list but I don't think it was very close.

Anyway, this seems like an easy way to identify the all-time heavy hitters for peak value. McDavid's right in there already, and at age 24 you have to think he'll solidify this part of his profile (unless something goes way off the rails, god forbid).

Ovechkin's highest Vsx is only 106 (2007-08). If he plays the missing 10 games in 2009-10 it would be a Vsx of 114.

Even peak Crosby (2010-11) was pacing at a 130 Vsx. 150 Vsx is really an outlier amongst outliers.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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The thing with players like Tikkanen, Claude Lemieux, Toews, etc. is how much they step up their production and overall play in playoffs, as opposed to regular season. McDavid's production drops (none more glaringly than in this year's playoffs), same as Dionne, Thornton, and, I believe, early Crosby and Datsyuk (those two rectified that issue). If McDavid is a true elite hockey player, he will find the way to overcome this obstacle. Otherwise he will forever be in Dionne's league.

given just a three playoff sample, i'd say it's a little early to say there's a pattern with mcd

look at joe sakic before age 25 and then after, for ex

to be clear, i'm not comparing mcdavid in the playoffs to sakic, just their scant sample sizes up to age 25

not to say that that winnipeg series wasn't ugly
 

Czech Your Math

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I dug deeper on this

Morenz x1
Howe x1
Esposito x2
Orr x 2 (Esposito and Orr did it in the same season on the same team both teams)
Gretzky x5
Lemieux never actually did it, but was on "pace" to do it x3 (1988-89, 1992-93, 1995-96)
McDavid x1

So it's only been accomplished 12 times in NHL history. Lemieux played at that level for at least three seasons, so we've had this "level of play" 15 times in 104 NHL seasons.

The Big Four (and Espo) represent 13 of the 15 occurrences of it happening ever. Elite company is putting it mildly.

I'd guess a lot of players were similarly great over 56 game stretches in one season... and yeah, asterisks galore.
 
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