If the Plan Isn't to Rebuild

[Stephen]

My only problem with dismantling this mess is we have yet to surround Kessel and Phanuef with enough High end talent to say this team is finished. Nonis Louisselle and Poullin signed awful contracts that has crippled this team, however I still believe that this team is 2 maybe 3 top 10 picks away from being able to become competitive. Now looking at what we have I would like to ask leaf fans a few questions:

It's over with this core.

Dion and Phil are terribly flawed players and their success here is always predicated on us bringing in some uber center or some true number one defenseman to do the real heavy lifting. We acquired these two guys in a 3 month span in 2009 and 2010 and it's now 2015 and pretty obvious that if they were intended on being secondary pieces, those primary uber pieces aren't coming.

Dion and Phil were drafted in 2003 and 2006, so if you're looking at players who are of similar age in their prime, you're looking at guys picked somewhere around 2001 and 2009 in the general Leafs time frame.

Elite centers picked between 2001 and 2010 who are still in their primes are basically limited to Crosby, Malkin, Backstrom, Getzlaf, Toews, Stamkos, Tavares, Backes, Kopitar, Bergeron, Giroux, Seguin, with a few other maybes.

Elite defensemen picked between 2001 and 2010 are basically limited to Keith, Doughty, Letang, Weber, Subban, Karlsson, Pietrangelo, Byfuglien, Suter, Hedman and Ekman-Larsson with a few other maybes.

How the heck do the Leafs go and acquire any two of these guys to make Dion and Phil work? Even if we miraculously drafted an elite center and elite defenseman this June, those players likely won't be blossoming to full potential until Dion and Phil are in their 30s and likely declining.

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The alternative is to cash in Dion and Phil and obtain about $98 million in cap space combined over the next seven years, maybe two good prospects for Dion and two bluechippers for Phil and a high pick. Then dump Lupul, Franson, Bozak, Reimer, and add a few more picks:

Your new pool of talent looks like:

Rielly
Nylander
JVR
Bernier
2015 Leafs first
2016 Leafs first
2017 Leafs first
Kessel return one
Kessel return two
Kessel return three
Phaneuf return one
Phaneuf return two

plus some combination of:

Johnson
Leivo
Brown
Carrick
Finn
Percy
Valiev

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

My only problem with dismantling this mess is we have yet to surround Kessel and Phanuef with enough High end talent to say this team is finished. Nonis Louisselle and Poullin signed awful contracts that has crippled this team, however I still believe that this team is 2 maybe 3 top 10 picks away from being able to become competitive. Now looking at what we have I would like to ask leaf fans a few questions:

I agree, and if there was a feasible way to surround this team with those players I would be up for it. We could look for these talents through the draft, but then expect at least 3-5 years before those pieces become the cornerstones we need them to be. by that time Kessel is 31-33 and Phanuef is 32-34. Hardly too old, but the realistic window for those guys to continue playing at high level is very small. Will Kessel still be a 30 goal scorer near the end of his contract? I don't think so. Realistically the Leafs need to win the cup in the next 5 years before the older pieces start to deteriorate. Not happening in my opinion.

1) Do you know who the second highest goal scorer behind Steven Stamkos in the past 4 years is?

Not Kessel. Kessel is 4th, only 2 Spots ahead of Tyler Seguin. You know what? I'd rather have Tyler Seguin on this team. Building with Seguin, Rielly, Nylander and Hamilton is much more appealing than trying to surround Kessel and Phanuef with top tier talent.

2) How many teams would you look at there defense and say Old Cement Shoes is not a top pair defender?

Not many. That isn't the point though. By the time We are ready to compete (If we ever are with these two) Phanuef is 33 give or take a few years. I'd much rather be competing for the Stanley Cup with our top Pairing being under 30 as it means they will be there for more cup runs.

3) What realistically do you see Kadri, Nylander and Rielly becoming?

Kadri I see being a good 2nd line center. Nylander has the upside to be a #1 center in the mold of someone like Tyler Seguin. Great skater, Excellent playmaker, and still a great finisher. If say we draft a guy like Zacha or Strome and they become the ever so coveted big first line center than Nylander could effectively by our Kane on the Wing.

4) Despite lacking High end talent outside of Nylander, do you believe players such as Johnson, Loov, Gauthier, Brown, McKegg, Percy, Levio, Carrick, and Finn have potential to be NHL caliber players (not necessarily top 6 players)?

I do. In fact I'm positive Brown and Leivo will be good top 6 players. Loov has the potential be top 4 along with Percy. Gauthier should be a decent 3rd line center. Mckegg and Johnson definitely has upside as well.

When I look at these questions I see that Phil Kessel is an Elite Player that has had insufficient talent around him these past 5 years. I look at other teams rosters and I say, yeah, as slow as Neon Dion is, there may only be about 3 or 4 teams I don't have him on the top pair. I see Rielly becoming a top pair defenseman and I think Kadri and Nylander will be two really good Goal scorers in this league. I think we have enough guys in the Marlies that they can fill out bottom end roster slots, but this team needs a Big Scoring Centre, a Shutdown Defenseman and a Power Forward that can make space. All these available in the top 10 which is where this team should be picking this year and probably next year.

When I look at this team I see a team that could be a young and upcoming team with the pieces Phil and Dion bring back. If Kessel brought back Jones you have your 1 & 2 in Rielly and Jones for the next 10 years. Much better than an aging Phanuef. Phanuef brings you back the potential for a good top 6/top 4 player that will be young and can contribute to a potential Stanely Cup when both Phanuef and Kessel have retired. I don't know about you but I'll gladly take 3-4 mores of losing if it means 3-5 Cup runs. With your current Idea I see MAYBE 2 and that's pushing it. Kessel and Phanuef wont play like this forever.

All these answers I say that this team does not need to rebuild, but to continue rebuilding. STL made the playoffs and then spent a couple years out of it making some tweaks to there roster before becoming the power house they are. ANA won with Niedermyer and Pronger, and now have been slowly working their way back to being a league wide powerhouse. Montreal same thing, Tampa Bay, now Nashville ect. They didn't get where they are by tearing the whole thing down each time it got rough, they got where they are by going back over what they had, seeing what worked and what didn't and solving those problems.

Was Tampa's "rough period" 10 years? How about Anaheim? Montreal? Nashville? No it wasn't the Leafs have been a bad team for 10 years now. 10 years. When the past 5 years have been this bad you don't try to build off that. We aren't a constant bubble team one center away from cup contention. We are a bottom feeder team multiple pieces away from cup contention.

Last year Shanahan and Nonis concluded that the lack of 4th line talent was the problem. So they shipped out players who could not play at both ends and brought in players who can. Last week they determined it was the coach, so they shipped him out and seeing what Horachek can do on the interm before diving in during the summer to one of the biggest coaching Free Agencies this league has ever seen.

It takes time, it takes patience to build a team. You look at what you have versus what you don't have and you see how you can get what you need with what you got. The Leafs have talent this time. It's not like 2008. Lupul, Bozak, Polak, Robidas, Riemer, JVR. All these guys have talent. All these guys bring something to the table that other teams want. What did this team have in 2008? A poorly signed Jason Blake and Tomas Kaberle. The top line of this team was Steen Stajan and Blake and the starting goalie had a 0.891 SV%. This team was crap. If fans are honest with themselves, they can't say that this time.

Why can't we? This team finished 23rd overall last year. They are plummeting down the standing this year. Over a large sample size of 82 games if your team is in the bottom of the standings your team is ****. I don't care how people try to spin it. Lupul, Bozak, JVR all great players but it' doesn't mean jack when you finish bottom 10 AGAIN. How many bottom 10 finishes does one team need before they realize their team is crap? And not the crap you can accept because you have a young team. Lupul, Kessel, Bozak, Phanuef Clackson, Santorelli, Winnik all 27+ all on a team about to finish bottom 10. What a great team we have here.

 

[MapleLeaf4ever]

I agree, and if there was a feasible way to surround this team with those players I would be up for it. We could look for these talents through the draft, but then expect at least 3-5 years before those pieces become the cornerstones we need them to be. by that time Kessel is 31-33 and Phanuef is 32-34. Hardly too old, but the realistic window for those guys to continue playing at high level is very small. Will Kessel still be a 30 goal scorer near the end of his contract? I don't think so. Realistically the Leafs need to win the cup in the next 5 years before the older pieces start to deteriorate. Not happening in my opinion.

I agree that the window will be small with these two players. Personally I see with this team assuming they can land one of the major pieces I mentioned, probably looking at 3 years until this team can be a contender and then 3 years with those two guys at the helm. After that though it is up to the new guys.

Not Kessel. Kessel is 4th, only 2 Spots ahead of Tyler Seguin. You know what? I'd rather have Tyler Seguin on this team. Building with Seguin, Rielly, Nylander and Hamilton is much more appealing than trying to surround Kessel and Phanuef with top tier talent.

I would like to have Seguin and Hamilton as well, unfortunately that is not going to happen.

Not many. That isn't the point though. By the time We are ready to compete (If we ever are with these two) Phanuef is 33 give or take a few years. I'd much rather be competing for the Stanley Cup with our top Pairing being under 30 as it means they will be there for more cup runs.

Randy Carlyle said that 300 games is how long it takes to develop a defender in this league. That is close to 4 seasons and the amount of defenders that can come in as an 18 year old is a rarity. If we assume Phanuef will be 33 by the time we can compete (which may I remind you that is roughly the same age Chara was when Boston became a contender) and we assume that we draft a Defender in the top 10 this year or next year, that player will be entering its prime years then. Why trade Phanuef now when we can keep him as a mentor for Rielly and the other defender and have him pass the torch off. Is not that what Detroit does with there players? So when we see that not many teams would pass on having a player like Dion Phanuef on there roster based on play alone, why give that up and throw the kids in the deep end. They need to learn in the kiddy pool first. Let Dion mentor them.

Kadri I see being a good 2nd line center. Nylander has the upside to be a #1 center in the mold of someone like Tyler Seguin. Great skater, Excellent playmaker, and still a great finisher. If say we draft a guy like Zacha or Strome and they become the ever so coveted big first line center than Nylander could effectively by our Kane on the Wing.

And at that point Kessel could become expendable. But in the interm why would you trade our only Elite talent?

When I look at this team I see a team that could be a young and upcoming team with the pieces Phil and Dion bring back. If Kessel brought back Jones you have your 1 & 2 in Rielly and Jones for the next 10 years. Much better than an aging Phanuef. Phanuef brings you back the potential for a good top 6/top 4 player that will be young and can contribute to a potential Stanely Cup when both Phanuef and Kessel have retired. I don't know about you but I'll gladly take 3-4 mores of losing if it means 3-5 Cup runs. With your current Idea I see MAYBE 2 and that's pushing it. Kessel and Phanuef wont play like this forever.

Was Tampa's "rough period" 10 years? How about Anaheim? Montreal? Nashville? No it wasn't the Leafs have been a bad team for 10 years now. 10 years. When the past 5 years have been this bad you don't try to build off that. We aren't a constant bubble team one center away from cup contention. We are a bottom feeder team multiple pieces away from cup contention.

No there rough period wasn't 10 years. But you know who's was? The Chicago Black Hawks. Also do you remember the penguins after Lemieux retired before returning to mentor crosby. The were horrendous. Now is just our turn.

Why can't we? This team finished 23rd overall last year. They are plummeting down the standing this year. Over a large sample size of 82 games if your team is in the bottom of the standings your team is ****. I don't care how people try to spin it. Lupul, Bozak, JVR all great players but it' doesn't mean jack when you finish bottom 10 AGAIN. How many bottom 10 finishes does one team need before they realize their team is crap? And not the crap you can accept because you have a young team. Lupul, Kessel, Bozak, Phanuef Clackson, Santorelli, Winnik all 27+ all on a team about to finish bottom 10. What a great team we have here.

Crap may have been the wrong word there. Yes this team is bad. But it has talent and there is pieces that have potential to be part of the solution. 2008 we had nothing. Absolutely nothing. Who on that roster that year wen on to do anything of relevance? Even though Steen had a great start last year, he really hasn't been much of anything. 5 years from now when we look back on this team how many players do you believe you could say the same about. It is a totally different situation.

 

[noto0661]

It's over with this core.

Dion and Phil are terribly flawed players and their success here is always predicated on us bringing in some uber center or some true number one defenseman to do the real heavy lifting. We acquired these two guys in a 3 month span in 2009 and 2010 and it's now 2015 and pretty obvious that if they were intended on being secondary pieces, those primary uber pieces aren't coming.

Dion and Phil were drafted in 2003 and 2006, so if you're looking at players who are of similar age in their prime, you're looking at guys picked somewhere around 2001 and 2009 in the general Leafs time frame.

Elite centers picked between 2001 and 2010 who are still in their primes are basically limited to Crosby, Malkin, Backstrom, Getzlaf, Toews, Stamkos, Tavares, Backes, Kopitar, Bergeron, Giroux, Seguin, with a few other maybes.

Elite defensemen picked between 2001 and 2010 are basically limited to Keith, Doughty, Letang, Weber, Subban, Karlsson, Pietrangelo, Byfuglien, Suter, Hedman and Ekman-Larsson with a few other maybes.

How the heck do the Leafs go and acquire any two of these guys to make Dion and Phil work? Even if we miraculously drafted an elite center and elite defenseman this June, those players likely won't be blossoming to full potential until Dion and Phil are in their 30s and likely declining.

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The alternative is to cash in Dion and Phil and obtain about $98 million in cap space combined over the next seven years, maybe two good prospects for Dion and two bluechippers for Phil and a high pick. Then dump Lupul, Franson, Bozak, Reimer, and add a few more picks:

Your new pool of talent looks like:

Rielly
Nylander
JVR
Bernier
2015 Leafs first
2016 Leafs first
2017 Leafs first
Kessel return one
Kessel return two
Kessel return three
Phaneuf return one
Phaneuf return two

plus some combination of:

Johnson
Leivo
Brown
Carrick
Finn
Percy
Valiev

Some of these were already rumors, some I made up or added to.

I think these deals make sense for both sides, and am wondering what you guys would think if Nonis made these moves.

Franson + Holland for O'Rielly + Hejda(contract dump)
-Improve COL D(and pp) and replace ROR w/Holland.

Phaneuf, Santorelli to Dallas for Oleksiak + 1st/2nd
- With next year in mind, might be a nice #2D to play with Goligoski

Gardiner, Clarkson, Bozak to la for Richards, Clifford, Regher
- Swapping bad wing contract for bad C contract. Gifting Gardiner/Bozak to take Clarkson off our books.

Kadri to arizona for Bodeker
- Kadri more dynamic, Bodeker more two-way winger.

JVR, Winnik to long island for Griffin Reinhart and Ryan Strome/Ander Lee
-JVR and JT together would be nuts. Winnik for playoff depth, PK. Costs youth.

Robidas to tampa for 3rd
-Experience to a young TBL blueline.

Lupul to vancouver for Luca Sbisa
-Take our glass bottle for a rfa trial, we like we resign if not he walks.


Pre-UFA
fwds: More two-way players, tougher to play against, plus added some skill.

Bodeker, O'Rielly, Kessel
Clifford, Strome, Nylander/Brown(2015/6)
Komarov , Richards, Leivo


def: Hard hitting blueline, with some skating ability and proper size.

Regher, Polak, Rielly, Oleksiak, Reinhart, Sbisa, Percy, Granberg, Nilson, Loov

 

[Kingstonian84*]

Some of these were already rumors, some I made up or added to.

I think these deals make sense for both sides, and am wondering what you guys would think if Nonis made these moves.

Franson + Holland for O'Rielly + Hejda(contract dump)
-Improve COL D(and pp) and replace ROR w/Holland.

Phaneuf, Santorelli to Dallas for Oleksiak + 1st/2nd
- With next year in mind, might be a nice #2D to play with Goligoski

Gardiner, Clarkson, Bozak to la for Richards, Clifford, Regher
- Swapping bad wing contract for bad C contract. Gifting Gardiner/Bozak to take Clarkson off our books.

Kadri to arizona for Bodeker
- Kadri more dynamic, Bodeker more two-way winger.

JVR, Winnik to long island for Griffin Reinhart and Ryan Strome/Ander Lee
-JVR and JT together would be nuts. Winnik for playoff depth, PK. Costs youth.

Robidas to tampa for 3rd
-Experience to a young TBL blueline.

Lupul to vancouver for Luca Sbisa
-Take our glass bottle for a rfa trial, we like we resign if not he walks.


Pre-UFA
fwds: More two-way players, tougher to play against, plus added some skill.

Bodeker, O'Rielly, Kessel
Clifford, Strome, Nylander/Brown(2015/6)
Komarov , Richards, Leivo


def: Hard hitting blueline, with some skating ability and proper size.

Regher, Polak, Rielly, Oleksiak, Reinhart, Sbisa, Percy, Granberg, Nilson, Loov

La doesn't do the deal... Please do some research here.... La is in cap hell right now which is why they want to unleash Richards.... Why on earth wouls they take back 10 million in salary? Please think before you post.

 

[noto0661]

La doesn't do the deal... Please do some research here.... La is in cap hell right now which is why they want to unleash Richards.... Why on earth wouls they take back 10 million in salary? Please think before you post.

Well it's 3Mil they take back, but yea I get your point.

Do you like any of the other ones?

 

[pacdunes]

LA is in cap hell but has won 2 cups recently. Leafs are in cap hell due to Nonis and Burke.

 

[MapleLeaf4ever]

LA is in cap hell but has won 2 cups recently. Leafs are in cap hell due to Nonis and Burke.

Actually I would say Burke managed the cap quite well. Avoided 5+ year deals, kept contracts down around the $5m. Komisarrek didn't pan out but other than that what bad contract did he have?

Nonis however should never be allowed anywhere near contract talks. Not because he went and signed Clarkson, something like 7 other teams including Edmonton and Ottawa were apparently ready to offer him more. But the structure of that contract... yikes.

P.S. Liles was not a horrible deal either, I actually think he was a great signing, but signing a guy while he is out with a concy is not a great idea.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

I agree that the window will be small with these two players. Personally I see with this team assuming they can land one of the major pieces I mentioned, probably looking at 3 years until this team can be a contender and then 3 years with those two guys at the helm. After that though it is up to the new guys.

Fair enough. I Just don't think you win with Kessel and Phanuef "at the helm". We desperately need a proper rebuild. We keep trying to beat around the bush in hopes that something changes, but it never does.

I would like to have Seguin and Hamilton as well, unfortunately that is not going to happen.

Yes but you trade Kessel in hopes that you potentially get a Seguin or Hamilton back with the potential for more. Would you rather have Kessel or a player with the potential to be on the same level as Seguin? I think the choice here is obvious. The time to trade Kessel is now. We aren't winning with him and probably wont.

Randy Carlyle said that 300 games is how long it takes to develop a defender in this league. That is close to 4 seasons and the amount of defenders that can come in as an 18 year old is a rarity. If we assume Phanuef will be 33 by the time we can compete (which may I remind you that is roughly the same age Chara was when Boston became a contender) and we assume that we draft a Defender in the top 10 this year or next year, that player will be entering its prime years then. Why trade Phanuef now when we can keep him as a mentor for Rielly and the other defender and have him pass the torch off. Is not that what Detroit does with there players? So when we see that not many teams would pass on having a player like Dion Phanuef on there roster based on play alone, why give that up and throw the kids in the deep end. They need to learn in the kiddy pool first. Let Dion mentor them.

Phanuef shouldn't be passing the torch off to anyone. We definitely don't need him too. Who passed the torch to Kieth? Karlsson? If anything just let a Veteran like Robidas "pass the torch." As for Phanuef coming into his own as a 33 year old defenseman, I wouldn't bet on it. Much rather move him out for younger pieces. We've hoped him and this roster would elevate their game for the past three years. Another bottom 10 finish tells me it's not happening.

And at that point Kessel could become expendable. But in the interm why would you trade our only Elite talent?

Because a good GM doesn't wait till it's too late. A good GM has vision. A 27 year old Kessel has more value than a 30 year old Kessel. Why do we have to have an "elite talent" right now? We suck and we're just wasting that elite talent. It's all about maximizing value. Tell me this, do you see the Leafs winning a cup with Kessel and Phanuef here? Do you really think 3-6 years from now the Leafs will be able to set a team up that wins the cup? If not then why would we keep them when we could move them for assets that could actually help us win the cup?

No there rough period wasn't 10 years. But you know who's was? The Chicago Black Hawks. Also do you remember the penguins after Lemieux retired before returning to mentor crosby. The were horrendous. Now is just our turn.

What? Our rough period wasn't 10 years?

2005-2006: Start of the decline, miss the playoffs
2006-2007: 18th
2007-2008: 24th
2008-2009: 24th
2009-2010: 29th Traded away current NHL leading Goal scorer. On pace to surpass Kessel's career high at age 22
2010-2011: 22nd Traded away Dougie Hamilton, 24th in D scoring at 21 only 2 points behind Leafs leading Franson.
2011-2012: 25th
2012-2013: 10th in a shorten season safe to say history says Leafs would have collapsed. Regardless bounced by Boston in the 1st round
2013-2014: 22nd
2014-2015: Another bottom 10 finish quickly approaches.

I guess this isn't a rough period though?

Crap may have been the wrong word there. Yes this team is bad. But it has talent and there is pieces that have potential to be part of the solution. 2008 we had nothing. Absolutely nothing. Who on that roster that year wen on to do anything of relevance? Even though Steen had a great start last year, he really hasn't been much of anything. 5 years from now when we look back on this team how many players do you believe you could say the same about. It is a totally different situation.

I agree that team had no great players and it rightfully finished 24th. Fast forward a year add Kessel and now the team finish 29th. Fast forward some more to 2014 and we see the team that now has Phanuef, Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, Bernier/Riemer, Lupul, Franson, Gardiner etc has now finished 22nd. And what is the grand result now? A team plummeting to ANOTHER bottom 5 finish. It's great that we have good player, but does it matter if we finish bottom 5? Are people going to look back and say. "at least we had JVR and Kessel when we finished 25th instead of Steen and Stajan"? No they wont. It's a different situation with the same results. The same results we've witnessed for the past 5 years. collapse after collapse after collapse. You don't keep doing the same thing in hope that things get better.

 

[Durkin67]

The plan has been to evaluate each and every aspect of the organisation while researching suitable replacements.

Carlyle was evaluated and summarily dismissed.
Spott and Horachek were hired to cover the need for coaching in the interim as opposed to attempting to introduce an unfamiliar voice and expect it to carry any weight. It also affords them the off season to make their choice based on the greatest range of options.
I believe Mark Hunter is being groomed as Nonis' possible successor. I am certain Nonis has been stripped of any authority and all decisions regarding player personnel go through Shanny, who in turn "consults" with Dubas and Hunter.

The evaluation period will conclude soon. Players unwilling or unable to show the characteristics expected from them in relation to their specific role will be traded. I think Dion to LA could happen in exchange for Mike Richards.

I think Kadri deserves 4.5 a year for 5 or 6. He'll push for more but has shown nothing to warrant it. Rumour is, they are in negotiations now. To me that indicates a desire to make a decision on whether to keep him or flip him, and I personally see him moving on, which is a drag, because he's the first legit home grown product to emerge as a top 6 piece in years. Bozak doesn't scream top 6 piece to me...in before someone decides to correct me on that.

If Dion moves, you want Franson staying put. I'd like to see them determine which direction they are going in as far as that goes. For me, you need a new voice in that dressing room, and a new kind of energy. I like Dion personally, but I think it is time to let him go, and LA seems like a good fit.


I seriously think you have to see what the offers for Kessel look like. He's a fantastic offensive weapon, but he will fade before that asset will have any meaningful impact on the club. I would personally jump at the chance to land ROR and a prospect plus a first rounder from COL for Kessel, if that's an option.

EDM is reportedly contemplating moving their first for a piece further along who can step in and be an impact guy. They are desperate for a 2C and Kadri fits the bill. Package him and Gardiner and take that first and Yakupov. Yak has trade value. Send him to MTL for a first and a prospect. I think reuniting him with Galy could help him reclaim his game.

A core built around Richards, JvR, O Reilly, Bernier Rielly and Franson leaves room for Nylander to emerge, as well as a very special player or two to come through the draft. It also allows for Lupul and Clarkson to have more of a voice and an influence in the dressing room.

Kadri, Kessel, Phaneuf and gardiner for three firsts in a deep draft, while adding real leadership and grit in Richards and ROR addresses the need for skill and veteran presence while filling the cupboards with a number of really great assets for the future.

 

[Durkin67]

La doesn't do the deal... Please do some research here.... La is in cap hell right now which is why they want to unleash Richards.... Why on earth wouls they take back 10 million in salary? Please think before you post.

Voynov comes off the books methinks. They need a defender. Phaneuf for Richards.

 

[MapleLeaf4ever]

Fair enough. I Just don't think you win with Kessel and Phanuef "at the helm". We desperately need a proper rebuild. We keep trying to beat around the bush in hopes that something changes, but it never does.

Whether or not you believe Kessel and Phanuef can win anything while at the helm is a matter of opinion. No really way to argue for or against those claims. I say that these two have not had sufficient talent around them since coming here and rather than trade them we should continue to draft and develop more for them. JVR, Kadri, potentially Rielly, and if Franson can be retained than him as well, are the only ones these two have that play consistently and are proper top talent players. That said none are proven impact players.

Yes but you trade Kessel in hopes that you potentially get a Seguin or Hamilton back with the potential for more. Would you rather have Kessel or a player with the potential to be on the same level as Seguin? I think the choice here is obvious. The time to trade Kessel is now. We aren't winning with him and probably wont.

A legitimate top line C for an elite goal scoring winger. Anyone is going to say the former. But even if you do get those 2 first round picks in the the top 10 even top 5, there is no guarantee you will get a quality nhlr out of it. Go look at some of them in the post lockout era. Some of the players drafted are real head scratchers. Furthermore,why give up a guarantee talent and throw darts at the board like Edmonton when you can hang on to them and add talent to them. We will still have 1st round picks. This years will still be in the top 10.We should get a guy with talent and hopefully he isn't another bust like Schenn,Peter Mueller, Zach Hamill, Scott Glennie, Sam Gagner, Magnus Paajarvi and possibly more as we see how guys from 2010 and on who are just getting in the league now, pan out.

Phanuef shouldn't be passing the torch off to anyone. We definitely don't need him too. Who passed the torch to Kieth? Karlsson? If anything just let a Veteran like Robidas "pass the torch." As for Phanuef coming into his own as a 33 year old defenseman, I wouldn't bet on it. Much rather move him out for younger pieces. We've hoped him and this roster would elevate their game for the past three years. Another bottom 10 finish tells me it's not happening.

Sheltering is not a bad thing. Stamkos had Lecavier, Crosby had Lemieux, Giroux
had Richards and Carter. Seguin played behind Bergeron and Kreji. This helps players.Gustav Nyquist comes in behind Datsyuk, Franzen and Zetterberg. Now I know Phanuef is not on the same level as most or all of the players mentioned. However, he still is a top pairing D and can teach a lot more to Rielly than what Robidas has to offer. He has made Franson look amazing this year (I do believe much of this is on Franson's marrit however Phanuef has helped) and before that Gunnarson, Kostka, Holzer even. Keep him around.

Because a good GM doesn't wait till it's too late. A good GM has vision. A 27 year old Kessel has more value than a 30 year old Kessel. Why do we have to have an "elite talent" right now? We suck and we're just wasting that elite talent. It's all about maximizing value. Tell me this, do you see the Leafs winning a cup with Kessel and Phanuef here? Do you really think 3-6 years from now the Leafs will be able to set a team up that wins the cup? If not then why would we keep them when we could move them for assets that could actually help us win the cup?

A good GM also does not get rid of Elite caliber talent like Kessel. And to answer your question, it is possible. I see them in need of another defense man, another really good centre, and a winger away. They have pieces to get these. ROR is rumored to be available. Gardiner may be expendable and Colorado needs D. There could be a potential trade there. Lupul and Bozak could bring back good returns, possibly other roster players that add a different element to the game. They don't have to tear the whole thing down to be competitive. Just move talent around, let a couple guys like Nylander, Percy, Brown, Johnson, Loov, and whomever they get 1st this year. 3 years if they still have Kessel, Phanuef, Kadri, JVR, Franson, Rielly,and solid goaltending then yes I could see them competing for a stanley cup if they continue adding talent. Problem right now is they havent had enough talent next to Phanuef and Kessel. Another Centre, another Winger,and another D and I think they can be good.

What? Our rough period wasn't 10 years?

2005-2006: Start of the decline, miss the playoffs
2006-2007: 18th
2007-2008: 24th
2008-2009: 24th
2009-2010: 29th Traded away current NHL leading Goal scorer. On pace to surpass Kessel's career high at age 22
2010-2011: 22nd Traded away Dougie Hamilton, 24th in D scoring at 21 only 2 points behind Leafs leading Franson.
2011-2012: 25th
2012-2013: 10th in a shorten season safe to say history says Leafs would have collapsed. Regardless bounced by Boston in the 1st round
2013-2014: 22nd
2014-2015: Another bottom 10 finish quickly approaches.

I guess this isn't a rough period though?

I never said we weren't going through one. However I do believe that with a couple more strong first round picks and some amazing cap management, this team will be a playoff team and have years in the playoffs to get better.

I agree that team had no great players and it rightfully finished 24th. Fast forward a year add Kessel and now the team finish 29th. Fast forward some more to 2014 and we see the team that now has Phanuef, Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, Bernier/Riemer, Lupul, Franson, Gardiner etc has now finished 22nd. And what is the grand result now? A team plummeting to ANOTHER bottom 5 finish. It's great that we have good player, but does it matter if we finish bottom 5? Are people going to look back and say. "at least we had JVR and Kessel when we finished 25th instead of Steen and Stajan"? No they wont. It's a different situation with the same results. The same results we've witnessed for the past 5 years. collapse after collapse after collapse. You don't keep doing the same thing in hope that things get better.

And again I am not saying continue to do the same. I do believe that some of the guys who have been here through each collapse need to go. Riemers flaws, despite having made a case for the leagues MVP that year, were apparent against Boston. Nonis fixed that with Bernier whos has been great for this team. He screwed up
with Clarkson, wasted a compliance buyout on Grabovski and traded more picks for Bolland. Last year, this team had no 3rd or 4th line. Shanahan and Nonis brought in Santorelli, Winnik, Booth, traded D'Amigo for Frattin (niether have done much at all this year) and brought back Komorov. The team, despite this collapse, has been slightly better. Now we see core changes need to happen. This means Lupul, Bozak, JVR, Gardiner and Franson. Kessel and Phanuef are on long term deals and have NTC. It gets hard to move pieces like that. It is also hard to move either of those
guys when they have performed the way they have with less talent than most top players have. That second group will see a change. After that, if these guys are deemed to be hindering this club. Then they will be dealt. However for the time being there is no concrete evidence that these two are part of this teams problems.

 

[Pucker77]

Voynov comes off the books methinks. They need a defender. Phaneuf for Richards.

Slava Voynov's contract is off the books. I dont know if the Kings do the deal though.

Despite all the stories of Richards and Carter going to clubs and getting drunk in the playoffs etc. Richards is still viewed as a leader for the Kings. His play over the past few years (basically his entire LA career) is what is making him available.

If you do the math, Voynov's contract is currently off the books (if guilty he will probably get deported and his contract voided, but OJ got away with murder so maybe Voynov comes back.) so that is $4.167m gone. Richards would get another $5.75m off the books. So total that is $9.917m off their pay roll. Plus, the Cap is supposedly supposed to rise at least $2 mil (based on transactions already made before the decline of the CAN dollar). so at most that gives the Kings $11.917m.

Bring in Phaneuf and that leaves only $4.917m of space. I know that Regher, Williams, and Stoll leave as UFA's but Martinez and Muzzin both have their extensions starting which raises their salaries by $3 mil each.

Plus, they have Kyle Clifford, Tanner Peasron, Tyler Toffoli, and Jordan Nolan as RFA's to re-sign.

All of this is assuming Voynov DOES NOT come back and that Regher, Williams, and Stoll all dont re-sign.

I HIGHLY doubt the Kings want to bring in Phaneuf because it may cost them their young cheap players in the long run.

 

[Faltorvo]

Whether or not you believe Kessel and Phanuef can win anything while at the helm is a matter of opinion. No really way to argue for or against those claims. I say that these two have not had sufficient talent around them since coming here and rather than trade them we should continue to draft and develop more for them. JVR, Kadri, potentially Rielly, and if Franson can be retained than him as well, are the only ones these two have that play consistently and are proper top talent players. That said none are proven impact players.



A legitimate top line C for an elite goal scoring winger. Anyone is going to say the former. But even if you do get those 2 first round picks in the the top 10 even top 5, there is no guarantee you will get a quality nhlr out of it. Go look at some of them in the post lockout era. Some of the players drafted are real head scratchers. Furthermore,why give up a guarantee talent and throw darts at the board like Edmonton when you can hang on to them and add talent to them. We will still have 1st round picks. This years will still be in the top 10.We should get a guy with talent and hopefully he isn't another bust like Schenn,Peter Mueller, Zach Hamill, Scott Glennie, Sam Gagner, Magnus Paajarvi and possibly more as we see how guys from 2010 and on who are just getting in the league now, pan out.



Sheltering is not a bad thing. Stamkos had Lecavier, Crosby had Lemieux, Giroux
had Richards and Carter. Seguin played behind Bergeron and Kreji. This helps players.Gustav Nyquist comes in behind Datsyuk, Franzen and Zetterberg. Now I know Phanuef is not on the same level as most or all of the players mentioned. However, he still is a top pairing D and can teach a lot more to Rielly than what Robidas has to offer. He has made Franson look amazing this year (I do believe much of this is on Franson's marrit however Phanuef has helped) and before that Gunnarson, Kostka, Holzer even. Keep him around.



A good GM also does not get rid of Elite caliber talent like Kessel. And to answer your question, it is possible. I see them in need of another defense man, another really good centre, and a winger away. They have pieces to get these. ROR is rumored to be available. Gardiner may be expendable and Colorado needs D. There could be a potential trade there. Lupul and Bozak could bring back good returns, possibly other roster players that add a different element to the game. They don't have to tear the whole thing down to be competitive. Just move talent around, let a couple guys like Nylander, Percy, Brown, Johnson, Loov, and whomever they get 1st this year. 3 years if they still have Kessel, Phanuef, Kadri, JVR, Franson, Rielly,and solid goaltending then yes I could see them competing for a stanley cup if they continue adding talent. Problem right now is they havent had enough talent next to Phanuef and Kessel. Another Centre, another Winger,and another D and I think they can be good.



I never said we weren't going through one. However I do believe that with a couple more strong first round picks and some amazing cap management, this team will be a playoff team and have years in the playoffs to get better.






And again I am not saying continue to do the same. I do believe that some of the guys who have been here through each collapse need to go. Riemers flaws, despite having made a case for the leagues MVP that year, were apparent against Boston. Nonis fixed that with Bernier whos has been great for this team. He screwed up
with Clarkson, wasted a compliance buyout on Grabovski and traded more picks for Bolland. Last year, this team had no 3rd or 4th line. Shanahan and Nonis brought in Santorelli, Winnik, Booth, traded D'Amigo for Frattin (niether have done much at all this year) and brought back Komorov. The team, despite this collapse, has been slightly better. Now we see core changes need to happen. This means Lupul, Bozak, JVR, Gardiner and Franson. Kessel and Phanuef are on long term deals and have NTC. It gets hard to move pieces like that. It is also hard to move either of those
guys when they have performed the way they have with less talent than most top players have. That second group will see a change. After that, if these guys are deemed to be hindering this club. Then they will be dealt. However for the time being there is no concrete evidence that these two are part of this teams problems.

nope your dreaming

this core has been weighed and measured and art found wanting

I have not been this confident that they will blow up this core since fletch took over

 

[Pucker77]

nope your dreaming

this core has been weighed and measured and art found wanting

I have not been this confident that they will blow up this core since fletch took over

I read this and all I can think of is A Knights Tale hahaha

 

[Durkin67]

Slava Voynov's contract is off the books. I dont know if the Kings do the deal though.

Despite all the stories of Richards and Carter going to clubs and getting drunk in the playoffs etc. Richards is still viewed as a leader for the Kings. His play over the past few years (basically his entire LA career) is what is making him available.

If you do the math, Voynov's contract is currently off the books (if guilty he will probably get deported and his contract voided, but OJ got away with murder so maybe Voynov comes back.) so that is $4.167m gone. Richards would get another $5.75m off the books. So total that is $9.917m off their pay roll. Plus, the Cap is supposedly supposed to rise at least $2 mil (based on transactions already made before the decline of the CAN dollar). so at most that gives the Kings $11.917m.

Bring in Phaneuf and that leaves only $4.917m of space. I know that Regher, Williams, and Stoll leave as UFA's but Martinez and Muzzin both have their extensions starting which raises their salaries by $3 mil each.

Plus, they have Kyle Clifford, Tanner Peasron, Tyler Toffoli, and Jordan Nolan as RFA's to re-sign.

All of this is assuming Voynov DOES NOT come back and that Regher, Williams, and Stoll all dont re-sign.

I HIGHLY doubt the Kings want to bring in Phaneuf because it may cost them their young cheap players in the long run.

Unloading a long term contract at forward creates space for those young guys. And replacing a pretty key defender with Phaneuf makes all kinds of sense.

 

[Pucker77]

Unloading a long term contract at forward creates space for those young guys. And replacing a pretty key defender with Phaneuf makes all kinds of sense.

It does not make sense. They lost a "key" RHD, Phaneuf is a LHD. Granted Phaneuf can play the right side. Darryl Sutter is a defense first coach and enjoys the ability to roll 3 pairings of LHD-RHD. Muzzin-Doughty, Martinez-Greene, Regher-McBain. Phaneuf ruins that chemistry. Sure he would replace Regher as a physical LHD after his contract but it would be at more than twice the salary.

I already showed that with the loss of Richards AND Voynov plus the acquisition of Phaneuf that the Kings would only have $4 mil to spend (That $4m is only assuming the cap rises by $2 mil). After that Alec Martinez and Jake Muzzin have extensions which increase their salaries from $1m to $4 mil and start next season so that is $6 mil added to the books WITHOUT resigning Pearson or Toffoli. That already makes the Kings $2 mil OVER THE CAP.

Are they going to have to unload other contracts just so they can fit players around Phaneuf? I highly doubt it.

Phaneuf will probably be on their 2nd pairing with Muzzin-Doughty as the #1. Does that look like great depth? Absolutely, but Phaneuf is gettign paid just as much as Doughty but will be on the 2nd pairing and that would mean $14m locked up between 2 defenders. $22m in 4 defenders when adding in Martinez and Muzzin.

Pearson and Toffoli will both be getting raises, both are more than likely to get MORE than $2m each. Kopitar will be in the last year of his contract next season so they will need to sign him to an extension and it will probably be a raise to his current $6.8 which means EVEN MORE money that has to be spent.

 

[Durkin67]

It does not make sense. They lost a "key" RHD, Phaneuf is a LHD. Granted Phaneuf can play the right side. Darryl Sutter is a defense first coach and enjoys the ability to roll 3 pairings of LHD-RHD. Muzzin-Doughty, Martinez-Greene, Regher-McBain. Phaneuf ruins that chemistry. Sure he would replace Regher as a physical LHD after his contract but it would be at more than twice the salary.

I already showed that with the loss of Richards AND Voynov plus the acquisition of Phaneuf that the Kings would only have $4 mil to spend (That $4m is only assuming the cap rises by $2 mil). After that Alec Martinez and Jake Muzzin have extensions which increase their salaries from $1m to $4 mil and start next season so that is $6 mil added to the books WITHOUT resigning Pearson or Toffoli. That already makes the Kings $2 mil OVER THE CAP.

Are they going to have to unload other contracts just so they can fit players around Phaneuf? I highly doubt it.

Phaneuf will probably be on their 2nd pairing with Muzzin-Doughty as the #1. Does that look like great depth? Absolutely, but Phaneuf is gettign paid just as much as Doughty but will be on the 2nd pairing and that would mean $14m locked up between 2 defenders. $22m in 4 defenders when adding in Martinez and Muzzin.

Pearson and Toffoli will both be getting raises, both are more than likely to get MORE than $2m each. Kopitar will be in the last year of his contract next season so they will need to sign him to an extension and it will probably be a raise to his current $6.8 which means EVEN MORE money that has to be spent.

Youre convoluting the issue to support a pretty flawed premise.

1. Phaneuf wouldn't replace a third pairing D man. He'd be top 4, maybe top 2 depending on fit and chemistry.
2. In order to free up cap for their young forwards, it makes sense to get Richards of the books
3. Voynov will leave a hole which Phaneuf can easily fill
4. During the course of negotiations, TOR could take salary back and demand a pick if they felt so led.
5. I'm certainly not the first to speculate about Phaneuf to LA for Richards.

If they did not go after a deal such as this, they still need to move bodies out to make cap space to accommodate those young players. Thayve been talking about moving Richards for two seasons now. This is a golden opportunity for both teams to deal with their respective needs. For that reason alone, such a deal makes perfect sense.


All you've "shown" is your opinion on the matter. Let's not pretend to know for certain...

 

[Hunter74]

It's going to be a retool which means we keep Kessel and Phaneuf.

Most likely on the outs.

JVR - I bet the habs would pay a lot for a scoring winger with size. Maybe Avs for ROR as JVR has nice contract with term and ROR might walk in a year if not paid big bucks.
Lupul - Vancouver wants a scoring winger with term.
Gardiner - still a valuable asset, replace Voynov on the Kings roster as Voynov is deported or just suspended from NHL.
Bozak - not sure who would want him. Obviously trade able just can't think of a match. Vancouver? Nashville has Jokinen and Cullen coming off the books so that frees up space in the budget. New Jersey needs some help big time.

Yup that keeps us where we are with hope of a brighter future which is what MLSE wants while Shanahan, Dubas and Hunter work the minor system. So eventually we improve from within we just continue to flounder for another 10 or so years because that's how long it will take to grow a decent farm system drafting 9-15 every year.

 

[Semantics]

A proper rebuild doesn't have to mean tanking every year, just collecting high picks, not signing big overpriced contracts, not throwing away picks, and actually getting a return on our assets instead of letting them walk for free. If we had rebuilt properly starting in 2008, imagine what could have been...

JVR-Seguin-Marner
Saad-Nylander-Brown/Johnson
?-Kadri-Santorelli

Nurse-Hamilton
Rielly-?
Gardiner-Polak

Bernier

Assets to move for additional picks: MacArthur, Lupul, Franson, Phaneuf, Kulemin.

This assumes that 2013 is the only year we'd actually have finished lower in the standings. We might not have drafted Saad with that pick, but I'm assuming we would have converted the several 2nd-4th picks we would have kept into at least one top 9 player so consider him a placeholder for that.

Sub Marner with Strome or Hanafin or whoever we end up with.

No tanking needed, just our typical suckage. The maddening thing is a GM could put together a group like this without even *doing* anything. You just need to stop trying to do idiotic quick fixes and throwing away assets.

 

[Stephen]

A proper rebuild doesn't have to mean tanking every year, just collecting high picks, not signing big overpriced contracts, not throwing away picks, and actually getting a return on our assets instead of letting them walk for free. If we had rebuilt properly starting in 2008, imagine what could have been...

JVR-Seguin-Marner
Saad-Nylander-Brown/Johnson
?-Kadri-Santorelli

Nurse-Hamilton
Rielly-?
Gardiner-Polak

Bernier

Assets to move for additional picks: MacArthur, Lupul, Franson, Phaneuf, Kulemin.

This assumes that 2013 is the only year we'd actually have finished lower in the standings. We might not have drafted Saad with that pick, but I'm assuming we would have converted the several 2nd-4th picks we would have kept into at least one top 9 player so consider him a placeholder for that.

Sub Marner with Strome or Hanafin or whoever we end up with.

No tanking needed, just our typical suckage. The maddening thing is a GM could put together a group like this without even *doing* anything. You just need to stop trying to do idiotic quick fixes and throwing away assets.

All is not lost. If we rebuild for real today we have more tools than the 2008 team did by a long shot, and before you know it the '15, '16 picks will be up and so will Nylander, etc.

 

[Durkin67]

It's going to be a retool which means we keep Kessel and Phaneuf.

Most likely on the outs.

JVR - I bet the habs would pay a lot for a scoring winger with size. Maybe Avs for ROR as JVR has nice contract with term and ROR might walk in a year if not paid big bucks.
Lupul - Vancouver wants a scoring winger with term.
Gardiner - still a valuable asset, replace Voynov on the Kings roster as Voynov is deported or just suspended from NHL.
Bozak - not sure who would want him. Obviously trade able just can't think of a match. Vancouver? Nashville has Jokinen and Cullen coming off the books so that frees up space in the budget. New Jersey needs some help big time.

Yup that keeps us where we are with hope of a brighter future which is what MLSE wants while Shanahan, Dubas and Hunter work the minor system. So eventually we improve from within we just continue to flounder for another 10 or so years because that's how long it will take to grow a decent farm system drafting 9-15 every year.

EDM needs a 2C still, I believe

 

[Leaf Army]

I'd only be interested in trading Phaneuf or Kessel if we get appropriate value in return. Which I highly doubt that we would. They are worth more to us as players than they are as trade pieces.

I'm all for changes but only if they make sense.

Some people seem to just want the team to "blow it up" without any consideration if it makes sense or not as if we're a bunch of yahoos watching a fourth of July show.

 

[Durkin67]

I'd only be interested in trading Phaneuf or Kessel if we get appropriate value in return. Which I highly doubt that we would. They are worth more to us as players than they are as trade pieces.

I'm all for changes but only if they make sense.

Some people seem to just want the team to "blow it up" without any consideration if it makes sense or not as if we're a bunch of yahoos watching a fourth of July show.

Im actually a Phaneuf supporter, for the most part.That said, I think it's tome for a new voice to emerge and change the energy and atmosphere around the team. It's probably best for both the player and team at this point if he is traded. The value is not only in the return, but in the change in culture which is probably necessary at this point.

 

[Leaf Army]

First step for the Leafs has to be to trade anyone who's on an expiring contract in the next year or so.

Santorelli, Winnik, Booth, Polak, Smith and Reimer need to go to the highest bidders. No sense keeping these guys around. Trade them while they have some value. A few of those guys (Booth, Winnik, Smith) you're getting a low draft pick at the very best. With the others (Santorelli, Polak, Reimer) you might be able to get a young A- to B level prospect who can step in and contribute soon in the next year or two.

Next step is to think long and hard about signing Kadri and Franson to extensions. If they will sign for a reasonable price do it. If their prices are too high package them with something else to get younger cheaper talent. You could get a decent haul for either of them.

Next step is to acquire top end talent. This takes some time. These guys don't become available often but you have to be patient. And when they do become available you have to be ready to react. And if it means packaging some younger prospects or draft picks so be it. I would trade absolutely anybody if the deal made sense and was fair value wise. If a top end player becomes available that's when you start looking to deal guys like Bozak, Komarov, Lupul or Gardiner to make room.