Speculation: If Liles gets dealt..

[Ricky Bobby]

Leafs need to be ready to take back a bad contract but with only this year or at most next on it that would pass through waivers. The Leafs could afford to bury this player in the minors and take the waiver hit. Most likely it'd come from a team that is nowhere near the cap and is worried about real dollars and not the cap limit.

Think guys like O'Brien, Hunwick, Sarich, Upshall, Carkner.

This player will likely be buried in the minors and the Leafs will take the penalty or put down in the minors than recalled where a team would claim him at half price.

The Leafs might also retain a few hundred thousand to make it even more enticing.

 

[mix1home]

I think i said in a different thread Nonis has been doing an AMAZING job. However, with that said I believe he made a mistake not buying out Liles. I guess he believed he could trade him, and clearly that is not the case.

What I want to know is with Komi in the AHL again and Liles bought out could we afford everyone we have now?

No, we would not be able to afford even our currently signed players in that case [Franson in particular]. Right decision was made. How you "believe he made mistake" if you don't know what cap figures would have been? Please do tell!
It's seems to me you formed your [wrong] opinion without checking facts and just going by whatever some [ignorant] media types [and fans] saying. [Even though a lot of fans do that,] it's not really good policy, gentlemen.

 

[Ari91]

How many times is this going to happen... connolly, Komisarek... now Liles... the worst part about this is Liles is actually a good player. I said from the beginning they should have just out right bought out Komisarek and taken the penalty on the cap... He only has 1 year left at 3.5 so the penalty wouldn't be huge... then we could use the compliance buy out on either Liles now or Clarkson in 2-3 years... I feel using a compliance buy out on a guy with only 1 year left is horrible cap management regardless of the situation. If they buy out Liles or send him down they're going to look like such morons

I think i said in a different thread Nonis has been doing an AMAZING job. However, with that said I believe he made a mistake not buying out Liles. I guess he believed he could trade him, and clearly that is not the case.

What I want to know is with Komi in the AHL again and Liles bought out could we afford everyone we have now?

Maybe you guys should do your homework regarding the cap situation (and how buyouts work) before you complain about it. Let me do it for you:

A regular buyout on Komisarek:

year 1 cap hit: 2.17M
year 2 cap hit: 1.17M

Do you honestly think the Leafs have room to take on a 2.17M cap hit this season for a player who no longer plays for them? How about taking on a 1.17M cap hit next year when they have to worry about resigning up to 11 players? It wasn't horrible cap management at all.

 

[mix1home]

What do you guys expect to get in return? What about if he was packaged with Colborne?

What? Again? Can we please stop? We are not trading Liles. We need dependable D when injuries strike. After our PMDs proved Carlyle wrong in playoffs he might just warm up to using PMDs on D with more responsibilities. Likewise Gardiner proved to be much better option over big defensemen during regular season when Leafs just appeared starting to slip.

Colborne was PPG player in AHL and played great with Leafs in roles given last year including playoffs. So why ppl see only his average camp? In my opinion it's [at very least] shortsighted. Give the guy a break! He might be tentative to not injure himself and not get buried behind other forwards [again]. Preseason means nothing. Why if there is new toy in Raymond [most likely for only one year], fans all of the sudden ready to give up on cheap, controllable and talented kid [only 23 years old] , who showed flashes of force he can be at NHL level? I bet he will bring more than [$600K] value to the team during 82 games season. You can book it.

 

[Puckstuff]

Maybe you guys should do your homework regarding the cap situation (and how buyouts work) before you complain about it. Let me do it for you:

A regular buyout on Komisarek:

year 1 cap hit: 2.17M
year 2 cap hit: 1.17M

Do you honestly think the Leafs have room to take on a 2.17M cap hit this season for a player who no longer plays for them? How about taking on a 1.17M cap hit next year when they have to worry about resigning up to 11 players? It wasn't horrible cap management at all.

Why don't you read what I wrote one more time. The situation where I claimed "they would look like such morons" would only apply if they were to buy out Liles... and in that case it would be huge mismanagement. As it stands right now there is a possibility it happens... the leafs can't continue on putting solid NHL players in the minors... although they could.

 

[Gallagbi]

Maybe you guys should do your homework regarding the cap situation (and how buyouts work) before you complain about it. Let me do it for you:

A regular buyout on Komisarek:

year 1 cap hit: 2.17M
year 2 cap hit: 1.17M

Do you honestly think the Leafs have room to take on a 2.17M cap hit this season for a player who no longer plays for them? How about taking on a 1.17M cap hit next year when they have to worry about resigning up to 11 players? It wasn't horrible cap management at all.

There's a good chance Liles is demoted, which would leave them with a cap hit of roughly 2.9 mill on a player who "used to play for them"

 

[Ari91]

Why don't you read what I wrote one more time. The situation where I claimed "they would look like such morons" would only apply if they were to buy out Liles... and in that case it would be huge mismanagement. As it stands right now there is a possibility it happens... the leafs can't continue on putting solid NHL players in the minors... although they could.

I didn't even make any reference to anyone looking like morons, did I? I made reference to whether it's horrible cap management. Maybe you need to read what you wrote one more time.

You said this:

I feel using a compliance buy out on a guy with only 1 year left is horrible cap management regardless of the situation.

 

[Ari91]

There's a good chance Liles is demoted, which would leave them with a cap hit of roughly 2.9 mill on a player who "used to play for them"

Liles is likely going to get games and play as the 7th D. You're making an argument based on something that hasn't actually happened yet.

 

[Gallagbi]

Liles is likely going to get games and play as the 7th D. You're making an argument based on something that hasn't actually happened yet.

I'm making a point on a potential (some would say likely) outcome.

If we're not going to make use of Liles, then he should have been bought out over Liles. If they're able to move him or use him, then it was a smart move to keep him over Komisarek.

 

[Ari91]

I'm making a point on a potential (some would say likely) outcome.

If we're not going to make use of Liles, then he should have been bought out over Liles. If they're able to move him or use him, then it was a smart move to keep him over Komisarek.

If it turns out that way, then I agree. But I don't count my chickens before they hatch.

I can understand why Liles might be demoted to start the season as a way to workaround the Clarkson suspension but that's as far as I see his demotion going. I don't agree with you (and those others) that say it's likely that Liles is sent down. That is mainly due to the fact that I don't honestly believe that Rielly is making the team this year full-time. If he won't be used as a regular in the line-up, he's not going to stay up. I think it's unlikely that he convinces Carlyle that he can replace Phaneuf, Ranger, Gunnar, Franson, Fraser or Gardiner. I think it's more probable that Liles is used as the 7th D who will get games in but will be mainly defensive depth unless they can find a way to trade him and call up a cheaper option.

We both have different views on how this will shake down but I can say for certain that at this point in time when we consider all of the decisions that have been made up to the present, the decision to keep Liles and buyout Komi has not yet proven to be bad cap management.

 

[Tak7]

There won't be any move on Liles before Monday.

There are 22 teams that are within $3 million of the salary cap, which means there will likely be lots of teams looking at the waiver wire to help free up cash.

If that's the case, and you are one of the teams out there looking for D-help, why not wait until you potentially pick up a waiver acquisition that costs you nothing over having to give up any asset to land Liles?

Liles will be sent down, and that will be that.

There's still a market for John-Michael Liles; he's a good, puck moving Dman, who is also a GREAT guy in the room. He'd fit in well with a team with a very young core, like the Oilers.

He's just not a Randy Carlyle type of guy. His style of play, his physique, his size & composition all count against him. Add in the fact that if you factor in Gardiner, and potentially Reilly, you've got a lot of Dmen on this roster that are decent going forward but questionable in their own end.

 

[diceman934]

There's a good chance Liles is demoted, which would leave them with a cap hit of roughly 2.9 mill on a player who "used to play for them"

And we would still have Komi then?

It is simply math.....

Komi cap hit $4.5M
Lilies cap hit $3.875M

We have to buy out one and keep one....we save money by keeping Liles even if we place him in the minors.....Komi had a NMC which meant that he did not have to go to the minors.

 

[Ari91]

And we would still have Komi then?

It is simply math.....

Komi cap hit $4.5M
Lilies cap hit $3.875M

We have to buy out one and keep one....we save money by keeping Liles even if we place him in the minors.....Komi had a NMC which meant that he did not have to go to the minors.

I think the argument is that if Liles ends up in the AHL, then it would have been better cap management to have used the compliance on Liles (because of the longer term) and use a regular buyout on Komi because the 2 yr caphit for Komi would still be cheaper than burying Liles in the minors (which is true). Of course, this is all predicated on Liles being demoted for a length of time in the AHL.

 

[34]

Who cares what you get for Liles, just get him out of here.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I'm ready for a very ****** deal tbh.

I realize Liles has negative value, I expect that if he's traded it's going to take a lot more compensation than Colborne to get someone to take him. I'm thinking we might have to give up someone like Blacker or Broll to get a deal done so I've prepared myself for that. Hopefully it doesn't happen and we can get him off our backs with little damage done but I'm ready if it does

 

[Canada4Gold]

Who cares what you get for Liles, just get him out of here.

I don't think it's what we can get for Liles at this point, it's probably likely what we have to give up so that someone will take him, whether that's retained salary or a prospect.

When you say you don't care what we get for someone it's pretty clear they have negative value and other won't want him unless there's some pretty nice incentive to take him

 

[hullsy47]

Who cares what you get for Liles, just get him out of here.

why was he ever signed? just to spend money ? there are reasons people get fired .this is the last of the burke mess ,now the fun starts with kessel being hounded nightly about contracts go leafs go

 

[thatshype]

I think the argument is that if Liles ends up in the AHL, then it would have been better cap management to have used the compliance on Liles (because of the longer term) and use a regular buyout on Komi because the 2 yr caphit for Komi would still be cheaper than burying Liles in the minors (which is true). Of course, this is all predicated on Liles being demoted for a length of time in the AHL.

Well yea, but let's wait to see what actually happens with Liles before we declare the Komi buy-out a mistake. If he gets traded, then it was clearly the right decision. If we keep Liles and he plays as our 7th D-man (something Komi wouldn't have done), then we still win. The only way the Komi buyout is a mistake is IF we buyout Liles as well, which hasn't happened.

 

[Deebo]

Liles is likely going to get games and play as the 7th D. You're making an argument based on something that hasn't actually happened yet.

Even if Liles ends up the 7th dman, it would have been better to buy out Komisarek on a regular course buy out and Liles on the compliance buyout.

Year 1 Komisarek 2.17 + 7th dman 1M = 3.17 < Liles 3.875

Year 2 Komisarek 1.17 + 7th dman 1M 2.17 < Liles 3.875

Year 3 7th dman 1M < Liles 3.875

Cap savings all 3 years.

 

[Mess]

Even if Liles ends up the 7th dman, it would have been better to buy out Komisarek on a regular course buy out and Liles on the compliance buyout.

Year 1 Komisarek 2.17 + 7th dman 1M = 3.17 < Liles 3.875

Year 2 Komisarek 1.17 + 7th dman 1M 2.17 < Liles 3.875

Year 3 7th dman 1M < Liles 3.875

Cap savings all 3 years.

Of course the real source of the problem was the GM that signed Grabovski, Komisarek and Liles to those contracts originally, and not the GM responsible for buying them out compliance or not.

If they didn't exist there would be no problem now debating on how to get rid of them all, and hurt the Leafs team the least in the process.

Accountability lies with the source, but MLSE dealt with that also accordingly, and Liles simply remains yet an unsolved inherited problem of the new GM.

 

[Deebo]

Of course the real source of the problem was the GM that signed Grabovski, Komisarek and Liles to those contracts originally, and not the GM responsible for buying them out compliance or not.

If they didn't exist there would be no problem now debating on how to get rid of them all, and hurt the Leafs team the least in the process.

Accountability lies with the source, but MLSE dealt with that also accordingly, and Liles simply remains yet an unsolved inherited problem of the new GM.

Again, if Nonis wanted to drop Liles, there was a route available to him to do it. How the contract got here is irrelevant to that.

Blame Burke for minor solvable problems that Nonis was left with, no credit to Burke for the playoff roster he left behind. The pathetic double standard and lack of interest of actual objective discussion is on display here again.

 

[Gallagbi]

Of course the real source of the problem was the GM that signed Grabovski, Komisarek and Liles to those contracts originally, and not the GM responsible for buying them out compliance or not.

If they didn't exist there would be no problem now debating on how to get rid of them all, and hurt the Leafs team the least in the process.

Accountability lies with the source, but MLSE dealt with that also accordingly, and Liles simply remains yet an unsolved inherited problem of the new GM.

How's the cap situation without Bolland, Bernier and Clarkson? Nonis had options and chose to put himself in this situation. Some don't feel it's all that bad, some do.

 

[Gallagbi]

And we would still have Komi then?

It is simply math.....

Komi cap hit $4.5M
Lilies cap hit $3.875M

We have to buy out one and keep one....we save money by keeping Liles even if we place him in the minors.....Komi had a NMC which meant that he did not have to go to the minors.

See HockeyCrazy's post. You're right it's simple math. Komisarek bought out would have been cheaper than Liles not being used and come with a shorter term.

 

[Deebo]

How's the cap situation without Bolland, Bernier and Clarkson? Nonis had options and chose to put himself in this situation. Some don't feel it's all that bad, some do.

If you were to move into a house in pretty good shape and there was a bag of dog **** on the kitchen counter, there would be a pretty easy solution to getting rid of it. Throw it out, you wouldn't just say the previous owner left it there so he is accountable and just leave it there, especially when you threw out two other bags of ****.

 

[Mess]

How's the cap situation without Bolland, Bernier and Clarkson? Nonis had options and chose to put himself in this situation. Some don't feel it's all that bad, some do.

How do Bolland, Bernier or Clarkson impact how Liles is considered overpaid and how best to dispose of him, and by which type of buyout should have been used discussion?.

Those players don't even play the same position of defense. Liles is still a contract mistake and redundant depth player regardless of what the forwards or goalie cap situation is.

Nonis got 3 Dmen Ranger ($1 mil), Franson ($2 mil) and Fraser ($1.2 mil) all signed for just a little more than Liles makes, and all expected to play ahead of JML.