If Kuch and McD both get 100 assists

[WalterLundy]

Oh yea, those guys exist.
That would be an interesting poll to make.

And I better not see people trying to put in Datsyuk or Bure into that list.

Someone should make it but I’m sure we’d see him get buried by feelings. There’s a bizarre hate that comes Kucherov’s way that I frankly don’t understand. If someone wanted to put 2012 Malkin or 08/10 Ovechkin above Kucherov 24 I wouldn’t be up in arms (it would center around goal scoring) but as a point producer whether regular or adjusted it’s clear he has surpassed the level that any Russian player has put up.

 

[Video Nasty]

Man, some of the takes in this thread. I really believe that they’d rather sit with a bowl of Froot Loops in their PJ’s and just watch reruns of the Crosby/Ovechkin era until they drop dead.

 

[The Macho King]

Someone should make it but I’m sure we’d see him get buried by feelings. There’s a bizarre hate that comes Kucherov’s way that I frankly don’t understand. If someone wanted to put 2012 Malkin or 08/10 Ovechkin above Kucherov 24 I wouldn’t be up in arms (it would center around goal scoring) but as a point producer whether regular or adjusted it’s clear he has surpassed the level that any Russian player has put up.

I love Kucherov. One of the favorite players I have ever watched in my time as a hockey fan.

I don't think the hate is bizarre. The man is about as taciturn as I've seen from a player in interviews - unless he just won the Stanley Cup, in which case he will air all of the reasons why he thinks you suck. I find it hilarious. I get why other people don't.

But I also think it's part of what drives him. He is a self-critical player, an obsessive worker that focuses on the minute details in everything. He plays with a gigantic chip on his shoulder. And I think that may make him a little surly.

 

[WalterLundy]

I love Kucherov. One of the favorite players I have ever watched in my time as a hockey fan.

I don't think the hate is bizarre. The man is about as taciturn as I've seen from a player in interviews - unless he just won the Stanley Cup, in which case he will air all of the reasons why he thinks you suck. I find it hilarious. I get why other people don't.

But I also think it's part of what drives him. He is a self-critical player, an obsessive worker that focuses on the minute details in everything. He plays with a gigantic chip on his shoulder. And I think that may make him a little surly.

That’s fair and I agree with all of that. I guess that would only further prompt people to favoritism in a comparison.

 

[RussianGuyovich]

i, too, love kucherov but i am not here to make others love kucherov. hate him as much as you want. but i dont really find any of the top three likable in that sort of a "dude to hang out with" way. mcd has a dog named lenard. NOT leonard. and lives in the most basic brutalistic boring ass patrick bateman mansion ive ever seen. and ive already made fun of that dork mack and his diet and beaky buzzard nose.

theyre all hockey robots. i just happen to like the one that is more of an impersonal asshole

 

[HolyHagelin]

Someone should make it but I’m sure we’d see him get buried by feelings. There’s a bizarre hate that comes Kucherov’s way that I frankly don’t understand. If someone wanted to put 2012 Malkin or 08/10 Ovechkin above Kucherov 24 I wouldn’t be up in arms (it would center around goal scoring) but as a point producer whether regular or adjusted it’s clear he has surpassed the level that any Russian player has put up.

I dunno, i havent been on these boards that long but one of the first few threads i posted in had a brigade of people arguing that kucherov is ALREADY the greatest russian hockey player of all time. Nit having the best season, not could challenge, just straight up already greater than Ov, Fedorov, etc.

Probably stuff like that makes people hate him more.

 

[theMajor]

I love Kucherov. One of the favorite players I have ever watched in my time as a hockey fan.

I don't think the hate is bizarre. The man is about as taciturn as I've seen from a player in interviews - unless he just won the Stanley Cup, in which case he will air all of the reasons why he thinks you suck. I find it hilarious. I get why other people don't.

But I also think it's part of what drives him. He is a self-critical player, an obsessive worker that focuses on the minute details in everything. He plays with a gigantic chip on his shoulder. And I think that may make him a little surly.

its a mix of things; his attitude (all-star game anyone?) or being a sore winner after the 2nd cup, being a sore loser with Panarin after they got swept years before, LTIR shenanigans (not his fault at all), and above all of this, he's an extremely gifted hockey player. its easy to hate someone whos really good and also an asshole

 

[WalterLundy]

Man, some of the takes in this thread. I really believe that they’d rather sit with a bowl of Froot Loops in their PJ’s and just watch reruns of the Crosby/Ovechkin era until they drop dead.

The passes, excuses and love the “DPE 2.0” (2011-2017) gets is pretty sad at this point. 5 100 point seasons in 7 seasons. 2018 to present has 38 and counting in those 7 seasons. Average goals per game league wide from 11-17 was 2.74 and 18-24 being 3.05. Essentially this means that a 111 point season the last 7 seasons would be worth 100 back in 11-17. That’s not nearly as big of a difference as we are supposed to accept. Sure scoring is higher but so is the actual performance of the top players now as compared to then.

There have been 14 seasons of 111 points or more since 2018 so nearly triple the amount of the 100 points of 2011-2017 total. Both scoring being up and the level of play from the elite being up are true simultaneously. Unless you are a peak healthy Sidney Crosby you wouldn’t match or clearly surpass the level of the 2-4 guys of this era (Kucherov, MacKinnon, Draisaitl) and none of them touch peak McDavid. I feel like this should be more celebrated and obvious to all of us. I wasn’t having fun (other than cups) watching hockey then as I am now.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

The passes, excuses and love the “DPE 2.0” (2011-2017) gets is pretty sad at this point. 5 100 point seasons in 7 seasons. 2018 to present has 38 and counting in those 7 seasons. Average goals per game league wide from 11-17 was 2.74 and 18-24 being 3.05. Essentially this means that a 111 point season the last 7 seasons would be worth 100 back in 11-17. That’s not nearly as big of a difference as we are supposed to accept. Sure scoring is higher but so is the actual performance of the top players now as compared to then.

There have been 14 seasons of 111 points or more since 2018 so nearly triple the amount of the 100 points of 2011-2017 total. Both scoring being up and the level of play from the elite being up are true simultaneously. Unless you are a peak healthy Sidney Crosby you wouldn’t match or clearly surpass the level of the 2-4 guys of this era (Kucherov, MacKinnon, Draisaitl) and none of them touch peak McDavid. I feel like this should be more celebrated and obvious to all of us. I wasn’t having fun (other than cups) watching hockey then as I am now.

Mcdavid scored 153 last season while kucherov is on pace for 147. Thats mcdavid level

 

[Video Nasty]

The passes, excuses and love the “DPE 2.0” (2011-2017) gets is pretty sad at this point. 5 100 point seasons in 7 seasons. 2018 to present has 38 and counting in those 7 seasons. Average goals per game league wide from 11-17 was 2.74 and 18-24 being 3.05. Essentially this means that a 111 point season the last 7 seasons would be worth 100 back in 11-17. That’s not nearly as big of a difference as we are supposed to accept. Sure scoring is higher but so is the actual performance of the top players now as compared to then.

There have been 14 seasons of 111 points or more since 2018 so nearly triple the amount of the 100 points of 2011-2017 total. Both scoring being up and the level of play from the elite being up are true simultaneously. Unless you are a peak healthy Sidney Crosby you wouldn’t match or clearly surpass the level of the 2-4 guys of this era (Kucherov, MacKinnon, Draisaitl) and none of them touch peak McDavid. I feel like this should be more celebrated and obvious to all of us. I wasn’t having fun (other than cups) watching hockey then as I am now.

It’s a period of time that seems untouchable to some people for whatever reason. I agree that it’s become really tiresome to watch the arguments shift from 2005-2006 to present day, to where the Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin era just so happens to be better than everything before and everything that has come after. Talk about falling victim to the same nostalgia these same people accused pre-2005 hockey of falling prey to.

I’ve never quite noticed that kind of hypocrisy in any other sport during any other era.

And all for an era that anyone else can easily look back on and see how underwhelming it was at times.

Most hated the 2014-2015 scoring race as it unfolded and ended. Now there’s this weird retroactive evaluation where apparently it was a gem because two far lesser players won a tight low scoring race over someone who should have mopped the floor with them. The whole thing is very weird to me.

Mcdavid scored 153 last season while kucherov is on pace for 147. Thats mcdavid level

The runner up was 25 points behind him and was his own teammate. He cleared the next closest non-teammate (Kucherov himself) by 40 points. The two seasons are not comparable. Kucherov is a tremendous player, but the difference between McDavid and everyone else is that his normal or even disappointing seasons others career years.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

It’s a period of time that seems untouchable to some people for whatever reason. I agree that it’s become really tiresome to watch the arguments shift from 2005-2006 to present day, to where the Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin era just so happens to be better than everything before and everything that has come after. Talk about falling victim to the same nostalgia these same people accused pre-2005 hockey of falling prey to.

I’ve never quite noticed that kind of hypocrisy in any other sport during any other era.

And all for an era that anyone else can easily look back on and see how underwhelming it was at times.

Most hated the 2014-2015 scoring race as it unfolded and ended. Now there’s this weird retroactive evaluation where apparently it was a gem because two far lesser players won a tight low scoring race over someone who should have mopped the floor with them. The whole thing is very weird to me.



The runner up was 25 points behind him and was his own teammate. He cleared the next closest non-teammate (Kucherov himself) by 40 points. The two seasons are not comparable.

That just means he had weaker competition.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

That just means he had weaker competition.

Beating out peak mcdavid and peak mack> beating drai. And mack missed 10 games and would have flirted with 130 anyways

 

[Offtheboard412]

The passes, excuses and love the “DPE 2.0” (2011-2017) gets is pretty sad at this point. 5 100 point seasons in 7 seasons. 2018 to present has 38 and counting in those 7 seasons. Average goals per game league wide from 11-17 was 2.74 and 18-24 being 3.05. Essentially this means that a 111 point season the last 7 seasons would be worth 100 back in 11-17. That’s not nearly as big of a difference as we are supposed to accept. Sure scoring is higher but so is the actual performance of the top players now as compared to then.

There have been 14 seasons of 111 points or more since 2018 so nearly triple the amount of the 100 points of 2011-2017 total. Both scoring being up and the level of play from the elite being up are true simultaneously. Unless you are a peak healthy Sidney Crosby you wouldn’t match or clearly surpass the level of the 2-4 guys of this era (Kucherov, MacKinnon, Draisaitl) and none of them touch peak McDavid. I feel like this should be more celebrated and obvious to all of us. I wasn’t having fun (other than cups) watching hockey then as I am now.

Well I think Malkin and Ovechkin at their peak would be pretty close to matching them. I don't see any major difference in the level of play having watched them all. I think there are some pretty serious flaws with the way you're adjusting. If 100 is only equivalent to 111 doing it that way, then you have McDavid's 16/17, Kane's 15/16 and Crosby's 13/14 at the same level, actually a little below, Gaudreau and Huberdeau in 21/22. Even Robertson's 21/22 season would be pretty close. I have a hard time buying that. It seems to be more like a 20 point jump imo. I think there are factors at play that the adjustments aren't accounting for. Even still, Malkin's 11/12 comes out to around 135-140 using that way of adjusting. When it's that close I have a hard time putting anyone clearly above the other when the difference is that small.

For the record, this isn't me holding that era up as better than previous or future eras. Quite the opposite. What I've seen following hockey, football, soccer and basketball is that outside of a few very rare outliers, the top end elite players are usually fairly consistently around the same level from one era to the next.
There are the very rare outliers like Gretzky/Lemieux, Jordan, Pele but even then there is usually another that comes along such as LeBron or Messi who can at least make it into the conversation. I think McDavid is making a pretty strong case for making it into that outlier group, but he is the only one.

 

[johnnyonthspot]

We have all talked a lot this year about what an achievement it will be when McDavid becomes the 4th player in history to get 100 assists, as he has been pacing it for a while now.

Kucherov got to 93 last night, and with 5 games to go has a serious shot at also joining the 100 apples club.

If both players achieve this incredibly rare milestone in the same season, does this devalue the achievement in your eyes? As in, if they could both do it there must be some condition that allowed this?

Or still just absolutely bonkers and we are all lucky to have witnessed it?

If these were primary assists only then I would think it is an all time achievement but just over 70% of Kuch's and MC.Jesus's are primary assists.
Great accomplishments that puts them in rarified air but if it was 90% and above then they would reach GOAT levels.

 

[DFC]

I love Kucherov. One of the favorite players I have ever watched in my time as a hockey fan.

I don't think the hate is bizarre. The man is about as taciturn as I've seen from a player in interviews - unless he just won the Stanley Cup, in which case he will air all of the reasons why he thinks you suck. I find it hilarious. I get why other people don't.

But I also think it's part of what drives him. He is a self-critical player, an obsessive worker that focuses on the minute details in everything. He plays with a gigantic chip on his shoulder. And I think that may make him a little surly.

Some players have an extra gear. Kucherov's is called "psycho." He has no issue taking somebody's ankle off, and I think it makes him a better player.

I've never seen a player hate losing as much as Kucherov. You can see it on the ice.

I dunno, i havent been on these boards that long but one of the first few threads i posted in had a brigade of people arguing that kucherov is ALREADY the greatest russian hockey player of all time. Nit having the best season, not could challenge, just straight up already greater than Ov, Fedorov, etc.

Probably stuff like that makes people hate him more.

I think he's third, and quickly catching up to Malkin.

 

[DFC]

If these were primary assists only then I would think it is an all time achievement but just over 70% of Kuch's and MC.Jesus's are primary assists.
Great accomplishments that puts them in rarified air but if it was 90% and above then they would reach GOAT levels.

...I'm not sure if you realize how percentages work.

 

[North Cole]

Kucherov getting 100 assists would be like this all over again: View attachment 847757

Kucherov is 2nd from the right?

 

[Strangle]

Agreed. The idea that scoring is higher because there's so much more talent in the league is plainly false.

First, if talent is so much better today, we'd see a slow and gradual increase in the number of goals per game. (That's because it would take time for the "next generation" of players to enter the league, and displace the previous generation). Instead, we saw a full decade with a very steady level of offense (from 2008 to 2017, eight of ten seasons featured between 2.70 and 2.79 goals per game). Then, once goalie equipment shrunk, scoring immediately soared. I think someone would have to be willfully blind to ignore this explanation.

Second, if talent is so much better today, then players from 10-15 years ago shouldn't be having such great results, this late into their career. Crosby is 36 (a full decade past a player's typical goal-scoring peak) and he already has the 3rd highest goals total of his entire career. Joe Pavelski just had his 1st and 4th highest scoring seasons, at ages 37 and 38. Ovechkin reached 90 points for the first time in 12(!) years, at age 36, while Backstrom missed half the season. Stamkos set a career high in points at age 31 (granted he's a on a stronger, deeper team now - but just from watching him, it's immediately obviously he lacks the acceleration that he had a decade ago). I can keep going with examples. But the point is - if the new generation is clearly better than the last one, it wouldn't be possible for so many star players to have huge seasons since late into their careers.

(Just so nobody misconstrues my point - I'm not saying that the previous generation was better. But I think the higher totals from today's top stars are at least partly due to the fact that they're playing in a higher scoring league, thanks in part to smaller goalie equipment).

This is just wrong

Goals per game were over 3 in 2005 and started going down until McDavid and Matthews entered the league, then they have gradually gone up

The players drive this, and it’s not just McDavid and Matthews alone, but they are 1. The best player maybe ever and 2. The best goal scorer the league has seen in 30 years

Add on the rest of the talent and yes, talent disparity is a massive reason we are back in a new golden age for the NHL and its fans.

Look at the numbers and track when the big names came into the league, there is for sure correlation there

And unless the NHL makes goalie equipment a little bit smaller every year, you’d only see a single up tick year and then the goals would flatline.

We see a steady growth as the players get better and better throughout their careers. Matthews and McDavid et al are in their primes now and the whole league is feasting.

But those few outlier players drive these numbers, just as they did in the 80’s and 90’s

Sid and Ovie generation just sucked

 

[gretzkyoilers]

This is just wrong

Goals per game were over 3 in 2005 and started going down until McDavid and Matthews entered the league, then they have gradually gone up

The players drive this, and it’s not just McDavid and Matthews alone, but they are 1. The best player maybe ever and 2. The best goal scorer the league has seen in 30 years

Add on the rest of the talent and yes, talent disparity is a massive reason we are back in a new golden age for the NHL and its fans.

Look at the numbers and track when the big names came into the league, there is for sure correlation there

And unless the NHL makes goalie equipment a little bit smaller every year, you’d only see a single up tick year and then the goals would flatline.

We see a steady growth as the players get better and better throughout their careers. Matthews and McDavid et al are in their primes now and the whole league is feasting.

But those few outlier players drive these numbers, just as they did in the 80’s and 90’s

Sid and Ovie generation just sucked

Could be a combo of both. Like the 80's and 90's a big wave of younger talented and speedy players with high powered teams like the Oilers driving up scoring. Same thing now with a younger, more talented league and changes in goalie equipment; I think both have contributed and the league now is more run and gun, smaller quicker players. I saw an interviewer with Lindros a few years back and we also see this generation start playing with the new rules in place. No doubt more offensive minded players vs when Sid and Ovi joined, the rules changed but still had the bulk of the league with the older rules to adjust to.

 

[Strangle]

Could be a combo of both. Like the 80's and 90's a big wave of younger talented and speedy players with high powered teams like the Oilers driving up scoring. Same thing now with a younger, more talented league and changes in goalie equipment; I think both have contributed and the league now is more run and gun, smaller quicker players. I saw an interviewer with Lindros a few years back and we also see this generation start playing with the new rules in place. No doubt more offensive minded players vs when Sid and Ovi joined, the rules changes but still had the bulk of the league with the older rules to adjust to.

Did they change the goalie equipment in this past offseason?

I’ve tried to track this and I just haven’t at all been successful.

Does someone have the entire timeline of goalie equipment changes and in what years they happened (and which changes were implemented) and how that effected scoring going forward?

The argument is always pretty nebulous and vague

 

[johnnyonthspot]

...I'm not sure if you realize how percentages work.

I don't? Care to explain it to me??

 

[gretzkyoilers]

Did they change the goalie equipment in this past offseason?

I’ve tried to track this and I just haven’t at all been successful.

Does someone have the entire timeline of goalie equipment changes and in what years they happened and how that effected scoring going forward?

The argument is always pretty nebulous and vague

There was a post on the changes in goalie equipment and the simultaneous increase in scoring starting in 2018. I cannot find it but perhaps someone can post this again.

 

[Strangle]

There was a post on the changes in goalie equipment and the simultaneous increase in scoring starting in 2018. I cannot find it but perhaps someone can post this again.

I would appreciate it, because it’s not easy to find online

 

[gretzkyoilers]

I would appreciate it, because it’s not easy to find online

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2798787-explaining-the-nhl-rule-changes-for-2018-19-season#:~:text=Changes%20to%20Goaltending%20Gear,pad%20into%20the%20right%20place.

"Last year, goalies were forced to shrink their leg pads and pants. In 2018-19, the league has turned its focus to arm and chest protectors. Here, the NHL wants netminders making saves with their skill and athleticism, as opposed to simply shrugging their pad into the right place.
The updated Rule 11.3, which handles chest and arm pads, focuses on making sure pads are fitted specifically for each netminder and not excessively large.
"The chest and arm protector worn by each goalkeeper must be anatomically proportional and size-specific based on the individual physical characteristics of that goalkeeper," the rule states.
It then goes into specifics on how arm, elbow, shoulder and clavicle should be sized:
"Elbow floaters have been reduced from 7 inches to 6 across the front. Bicep and forearm pads must taper—5.5 inches to 4.5, then 4.5 to 4. Clavicle floaters cannot extend more than 2 inches above the shoulder at the lateral edge, 1.5 inches at midpoint and 0.5 inches at the medial edge. Shoulder caps cannot project laterally beyond shoulders more than 1.5 inches."

And

NHL Goalie Equipment Changes

NHL goalie gear has shrunk again, and scoring is up along with goaltenders’ concern. Pro Stock Hockey has the details and your gear needs covered.

www.prostockhockey.com

 

[WalterLundy]

Well I think Malkin and Ovechkin at their peak would be pretty close to matching them. I don't see any major difference in the level of play having watched them all. I think there are some pretty serious flaws with the way you're adjusting. If 100 is only equivalent to 111 doing it that way, then you have McDavid's 16/17, Kane's 15/16 and Crosby's 13/14 at the same level, actually a little below, Gaudreau and Huberdeau in 21/22. Even Robertson's 21/22 season would be pretty close. I have a hard time buying that. It seems to be more like a 20 point jump imo. I think there are factors at play that the adjustments aren't accounting for. Even still, Malkin's 11/12 comes out to around 135-140 using that way of adjusting. When it's that close I have a hard time putting anyone clearly above the other when the difference is that small.

For the record, this isn't me holding that era up as better than previous or future eras. Quite the opposite. What I've seen following hockey, football, soccer and basketball is that that outside of a few very rare outliers, the top end elite players are usually fairly consistently around the same level from one era to the next.
There are the very rare outliers like Gretzky/Lemieux, Jordan, Pele but even then there is usually another that comes along such as LeBron or Messi who can at least make it into the conversation. I think McDavid is making a pretty strong case for making it into that outlier group, but he is the only one.

I very quickly did base league goals per game for the blocks of seven years for an easy comparison. I wasn’t trying to account for everything (like even strength, power play and shorthanded separately as I normally do). I agree with most of your post though. Here are the best seasons of the salary cap era adjusted to the cap 19 year average.

2006 to 2024 (Salary cap era) League averages:
EVG: 2.11, PPG: 0.66, SHG: 0.09

Best seasons adjusted to the average:

‘21 McDavid:
56 GP: 34 G, 73 A, 107 P (1.91)

‘23 McDavid:
82 GP: 60 G, 86 A, 146 P (1.78)

‘24 Kucherov:
76 GP: 40 G, 88 A, 128 P (1.68)

‘24 McDavid:
74 GP: 29 G, 94 A, 123 P (1.66)

*‘11 Crosby:
41 GP: 33 G, 35 A, 68 P (1.66)

‘24 MacKinnon:
78 GP: 44 G, 81 A, 125 P (1.60)

‘12 Malkin:
75 GP: 54 G, 65 A, 119 P (1.59)

‘10 Ovechkin:
72 GP: 52 G, 60 A, 112 P (1.56)

‘19 Kucherov:
82 GP: 41 G, 87 A, 128 P (1.56)

‘20 Draisaitl:
71 GP: 43 G, 67 A, 110 P (1.55)

‘23 Draisaitl:
80 GP: 51 G, 73 A, 124 P (1.55)

These results respect your intuition that OV and Malkin are as good as MacKinnon this year and close to Kucherov (same with Sid) with McDavid being the outlier on another level entirely.

The best versions (in my opinion) of Gretzky and Lemieux adjusted to this cap average are as follows. They obviously would still be the 1 and 2 in any era

‘84 Gretzky:
74 GP: 62 G, 86 A, 148 P (2.00)

‘89 Lemieux:
76 GP: 61 G, 84 A, 145 P (1.91)