Speculation: If Columbus Trades Hartnell's Remaining Cap

[Sawdalite]

That's not true. There are plenty of players in the league where I would prefer to have dead cap space than them. Some of them are on the first page in various trade board offers for Hartnell.

Okay, okay... of course there is ... like higher Cap Hits for longer periods of time... But sticking to the case in point the Flyers carried him for a couple Season and now don't even have him for emergency services... while The Jackets have a Player who can score points and have the option of moving him for their betterment... If they see a player who they like, they move him... if not they play him.


I think that is what I have against what the Flyers did... they took a player that was not to their betterment... a player Columbus would BuyOut if not taken off their hands... when would be that they could have gotten more... then and now.

 

[Sawdalite]

The trade is and always was pretty clearly a loss. Whether you were happy Hartnell was gone or not, he could have returned more and would have given the team more net value over the past two years than Umberger. Even with the PIMs.

I don't know why this one had to be so contentious. I think it's just because it was Hextall's first real move and people refused to acknowledge it as a bad one... I think it's a pretty black and white loss and don't get why we can't admit it and move on. Hextall's still a stud of a GM, and it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Well stated... on all points... That's all I was getting at. Hexy has pulled some nice rabbits out of his hat subsequent to that one, and pretty much has won me over... but he is not batting 1.000 and never will.

 

[deadhead]

20-20 hindsight says the deal wasn't as good as we would have liked, but let's see if Columbus can get anything for him (or have to deal him for their own "Umberger.").

Hartnell would not have made a big difference here, did he make a big difference there? Simmonds does everything Hartnell used to do but better. What the Flyers needed was not a big slow (by today's NHL) power forward but a fast two way forward with a scoring touch. If Hartnell isn't on the 1st PP unit, just how much scoring does he provide?

 

[Curufinwe]

I thought Hartnell to NJ for the 41st made sense at this point but Devils fans don't seem to want him at all.

Then in the other Hartnell thread I see this:

I'm sure he has some value to some teams, but if they want to trade his entire contract without taking any salary back, or only taking ELC salary back, they will have to really sweeten the pot. Besides, if they can get a younger player more in line with what they want either for the pick or moving down and drafting that player this year while offloading Hartnell why wouldn't they explore the option? They aren't needing winger prospects.

 

[Sawdalite]

I thought Hartnell to NJ for the 41st made sense at this point but Devils fans don't seem to want him at all.

Then in the other Hartnell thread I see this:

Sure is a shame Hexy didn't think like that a couple years back.

 

[Curufinwe]

Why not use Harnell's services for a couple Seasons and allow Columbus to Buy him Out two years ago... then trade Hartnell for whatever they can get thsi OffSeason like the BJs will?

You really were convinced that Hartnell would be traded.

 

[Hockeypete49]

Oh good this again.

I agree and even though I responded to this poll I really could give two dumps about the past.

 

[Garbage Goal]

See, this is my problem with how people talk about this trade. You can think they could have gotten a better return, despite nobody actually being able to know that and every other trade Hextall has done showing due diligence. Still, if you want to believe that then fine. It's a valid opinion.

It's stupid to think we didn't benefit from this though. We were cap-strapped the last couple seasons with awful deals from Lecavalier to MacD to having wastes of space like Rinaldo on the roster to having Pronger on LTIR. Adding Hartnell into that mix doesn't help those issues whatsoever. Hextall cleaned up all those other contracts (minus Mac obviously) and for the first time in a long time we have a reasonably manageable cap situation. Meanwhile, Columbus hasn't competed in the playoffs and we weren't by any stretch of any imagination Cup contenders. So, Hartnell's top six production wasn't really beneficial to either of us because neither of us were going to compete (and that's not even taking into consideration his debatable value on the ice due to bad penalties and no PK ability).

Additionally, since then this whole Vegas expansion has been announced and Columbus is one of the most screwed teams in the league because of it due to NMC's which Hartnell has. We, on the other hand, are one of the least affected teams because our only NMC is Giroux. Also, that fourth ended up turning into Vorobyov and Salinitri, as far as I can tell. Might be wrong on that though.

Say they could have done better, fine. I don't agree whatsoever, but fine it's valid. To say they didn't benefit at all though? It boggles my mind how people can think that. Neither team had use for Hartnell as neither were Cup competitors since then. We got a couple of prospects out of it and are free of Umberger going into the expansion draft and with some key re-signings happening within the last year and next year. The Blue Jackets still don't look like they're going to compete whatsoever, still have Hartnell on the books and are forced to protect him, can't really buy him out, and lost a fourth round pick in the deal.

Boggles my mind how people can say we didn't benefit at all. That's just stupid in my eyes and that's not an affront on anybody personally, I just see that as a stupid notion. It's not even like Hartnell is highly valued either, the Blue Jackets reportedly can't deal him for good value, his contract is a huge negative heading into the Vegas expansion and as he ages, and even on the trade boards nobody will entertain the thought of giving up anything of worth for him or possibly even wanting him. Yet, somehow and someway, the Flyers lost out on that trade? Okay, whatever I guess.

 

[Garbage Goal]

The trade is and always was pretty clearly a loss. Whether you were happy Hartnell was gone or not, he could have returned more and would have given the team more net value over the past two years than Umberger. Even with the PIMs.

I don't know why this one had to be so contentious. I think it's just because it was Hextall's first real move and people refused to acknowledge it as a bad one... I think it's a pretty black and white loss and don't get why we can't admit it and move on. Hextall's still a stud of a GM, and it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Because the phrasing of "loss" implies there was no benefit and that they actually suffered for it. Where in reality they benefitted, even if it wasn't nearly as much as people hoped for or wanted.

 

[Garbage Goal]

seems like the peeps who don't want to discuss this trade anymore just basically can't admit they were wrong about the deal, objectively bad at the time & now

can't expect hexy to hit em all out of the park

This whole topic is being made purely because the Hartnell situation looks worse with Columbus wanting to get rid of him, nobody seemingly jumping at the opportunity, the Vegas expansion draft looming, and neither team having been capable of competing since the trade. How has time made this deal look worse and not better?

 

[Appleyard]

Yep, the picks did indeed turn into Vorobyov & Salinitri:

CBJ 2015 4th (99th OA, Austin Wagner)

traded for

L.A. 2015 4th (104th OA, Mikhail Vorobyov)
L.A. 2016 6th (172nd OA, Anthony Salinitri)

 

[Sawdalite]

You really were convinced that Hartnell would be traded.

Did I sleep all the way past the Trade DeadLine?


... I posted the Poll only after the pundits were reporting the possibility, BTW. From what I hear, the BJs are not looking for a low return.


... And may I bring up the fact that I did not bring up this topic that was pretty much dead... So I guess the horse is not so beaten up, HUH? I do believe I will be raked over the coals again, all the same.

 

[Curufinwe]

Maybe they will move Hartnell at the 2017 deadline, but if they could have moved him for a pick this summer they wouldn't have had to buy out Tyutin and Boll, while the Flyers were able to use the space from buying out Umberger to add Weise and Gordon in free agency.

Buyout Cap penalties
2016-17: Umberger $1,600,000; Tyutin + Boll = $1,775,000
2017-18: Umberger $1,500,000; Tyutin + Boll = $2,525,000
2018-19: Tyutin $1,458,333
2019-20: Tytin $1,458,333

This goes back to something a lot of us have been saying for over two years. Cap certainty has value, and that's why Hextall moved Hartnell for an inferior player with a shorter contract (plus a draft pick) in 2014 when he still had Vinny and Pronger on the books.

 

[Sawdalite]

Maybe they will move Hartnell at the 2017 deadline, but if they could have moved him for a pick this summer they wouldn't have had to buy out Tyutin and Boll, while the Flyers were able to use the space from buying out Umberger to add Weise and Gordon in free agency.

Buyout Cap penalties
2016-17: Umberger $1,600,000; Tyutin + Boll = $1,775,000
2017-18: Umberger $1,500,000; Tyutin + Boll = $2,525,000
2018-19: Tyutin $1,458,333
2019-20: Tytin $1,458,333

This goes back to something a lot of us have been saying for over two years. Cap certainty has value, and that's why Hextall moved Hartnell for an inferior player with a shorter contract (plus a draft pick) in 2014 when he still had Vinny and Pronger on the books.

One more go-around on this beaten horse:

I suppose the bottom line is that Columbus... who the OddsMakers BTW have ahead of the Flyers on Odds to win Cup and Conference (neither stand well, granted) and are in worst Cap shape... have Hartnell's services while the Flyers have Weise and Gordon this year and next at least... Personally I'd rather have had a better return and no Dead Cap/Weise+Gordon; but that's just me.

IDK, but I don't see.. no matter how you shake and bake this... how getting a better return on a quality asset than a washed up piece of damaged goods -- a class act and quality man, granted... but damaged goods all the same -- could not have been a better and more ideal situation. I just don't understand why some of you just refuse to admit that Hextall's first deal was far inferior to his later great deals... and having a better player than the two Role Players signed with the help of Umby's BuyOut savings, when the Flyers needed another scoring top six winger more than role players, is not more ideal.

All I'm asking for... as a fan who is not in the Tanking Mode thinking, and want the best Team on the Ice as I attend the Games, is as close to fair deal coming back for what goes out... a has-been Umberger was not even close to that. I 100% understand the Cap argument... it is the return Hexy got that I can never go along with; unlike some of you.

We will have to agree to disagree, I suppose... worse things have happened on this Forum.

 

[Tripod]

Few liked the deal when it happened and always felt we should have gotten a better return. But in saying that, Hextall had his reasons at the time....right or wrong:

He was supporting Berube who, according to reports, had issues with Hartnell's conditioning level. Also hated how many penalties he took...often dumb ones.

Hextall KNEW he needed cap space for summer 2016 to re-sign Jake, Couts and Schenn.

Hextall had already begun to show signs of decline...go look at Hartnell thread in Dec 2013...people said he had no value because he was playing so poorly.

Umberger was coming off a 38 point pace season....Hartnell 55. Given Umberger's easier buyout and shorter contract, the gap between them shrinks.

Hextall still had Vinny and Pronger in the books with no guarantee he could move them. He decided he had to move 1 cap hit out to try and have flexibility for this summer.

Hartnell had a NMC. He controlled if he moved or not. That often lessens the return you get as the other team knows this.

CBus DID take risk in acquiring Hartnell. It paid off in points....but not in the standings or in roster flexibility. They had to buyout Tutin due to having too many NMC.

Hartnell's value WILL go up if he keeps playing well as his contract becomes shorter. Be prepared for that. But it's also obvious that CBus has tried to move him. Leading up to the draft, they were willing to trade the #3 pick if teams took back a bad contract....Tutin or Hartnell.

Hextall was a new GM and his first moves were his worst. This trade, and re-signing Rinaldo. He redeemed himself by getting a 3rd for Rinaldo, and hey, we do still have our 7th best F prospect + depth prospect from the Hartnell deal. And the cap space to re-sign our 3 core FA. Could be worse.

 

[Curufinwe]

how getting a better return on a quality asset

Hartnell with 5 years left on his contract wasn't a quality asset. That's the fundamental thing you keep getting wrong.

This thread exists because you assumed Hartnell with 3 years left would get CBJ a nice return and fix their cap problems. He didn't, and they had to resort to buyouts totaling $7,216,166 in cap penalties over four years.

 

[Random Forest]

Hartnell with 5 years left on his contract wasn't a quality asset. That's the fundamental thing you keep getting wrong.

This thread exists because you assumed Hartnell with 3 years left would get CBJ a nice return and fix their cap problems. He didn't, and they had to resort to buyouts totaling $7,216,166 in cap penalties over four years.

Yeah, CBJ is really screwed having to keep their 20+ goal scoring LWer.

 

[Curufinwe]

Having to resort to multiple buyouts to get under the cap when you were the 27th best team in the league doesn't seem like great management to me. Nor does handing out so many NMCs that you're almost guaranteed to lose a good young forward in the ED.

Hartnell's still a good player, but CBJ tried to trade him in 2016 and couldn't get a return they were happy with. That's something worth recognizing when you're still complaining that Hextall didn't get good value for him in 2014.

 

[Random Forest]

Having to resort to multiple buyouts to get under the cap when you were the 27th best team in the league doesn't seem like great management to me. Nor does handing out so many NMCs that you're almost guaranteed to lose a good young forward in the ED.

Hartnell's still a good player, but CBJ tried to trade him in 2016 and couldn't get a return they were happy with. That's something worth recognizing when you're still complaining that Hextall didn't get good value for him in 2014.

Still complaining? The only time I ever mention the Hartnell deal anymore is when you decide to bump these threads with inane reasons to gloat about how you were right about this all along even though you weren't.

The fact that CBJ is a brutally mismanaged team that had to resort to multiple buyouts does not speak to the merits of this trade in any way.

 

[Sawdalite]

Hartnell with 5 years left on his contract wasn't a quality asset. That's the fundamental thing you keep getting wrong.

Well, that is a matter of opinion... but he certainly was more of a quality asset than Umberger who was of little use for the Flyers... a team in need of a scoring winger for the top two lines... and Umby was even a higher Cap hit. If you'd feel more comfortable with just saying 'an asset', then knock yourself out.

Couldn't the Flyers have used Hartnell's services for these pst two years... at a slightly lower Cap hit... and then taken him, still a decent scorer at worst, and traded him off with two less Contract Years for a player like Umberger or even better -- a novel idea, I understand -- and then buy that player out if desired? Keep in mind that the Jackets were about to BuyOut Umberger had they not traded him.

Even with all the Cap concerns... and the perceived drop-off of Hartnell's skills... the return frankly sucked... the Cap relief may now be obtained, less the BO Dead Cap, but how you can say the last two years of Umberger and his next two years of BO$ was good, and the optimal situation is beyond me. But if that is how you see it... that's fine.

This thread exists because you assumed Hartnell with 3 years left would get CBJ a nice return and fix their cap problems. He didn't, and they had to resort to buyouts totaling $7,216,166 in cap penalties over four years.

This Thread exists because Eklund and some others were suggesting that Hartnell would be moved... so I wanted to see if people still believed that the deal favored the Flyers IF... IF Columbus did deal him. I never suggested that a deal would fix Columbus' Cap problems... they need more than that... If you want to think that they cannot trade him and he is the reason for their present Cap situation, I would suggest that we really don't know and that their situation is too messed up to blame on Hartnell.

The Jackets are an under achieving team that is always picked to do better but doesn't... and Hartnell is still a scorer for them and neither Harts nor Umby are for the Flyers... The Flyers are without Umber but with his BO Dead Space... the BJs chose to BO who they chose but at least have a winger who can score clutch Goals; something the Flyers can sorely use. But you still feel that the Flyers didn't lose Hexall's first major Trade? Hextall has proven that he can work out many fine moves to better the Team and the Cap... and I believe he could have done that this OffSeason in a better manner.

Truth be told; Hextall and Berube made fun of Hartnell at the TownHall after the trade... they did not like him and made a move to get him off the Team... in doing so, they did not get the best return they could have gotten.

It's done... let's let it go.

The next time this Tread dies off... what say we don't resurrect it... and not have people claim that I'm again beating a dead horse. SMH

 

[deadhead]

Hartnell is a scorer for them, but didn't do much to make them better.
And the fact that they couldn't make a decent deal to dump the last three years of his contract says he's less value than his counting stastics.

Not sure how valuable he'd have been on the Flyers, we needed a solid two way winger, not a guy who primarily scores on the PP (that we had in Simmonds and Schenn). Raffl is too one dimensional but so is Hartnell, so it isn't like that's a huge jump.

It would have been nice if Umberger had turned out to be a decent 3rd line winger, but Hartnell's contract would have squeezed Hextall this offseason, too big to buy out, too big to carry as well - and if he couldn't have pulled off the miracle Vinny trade . . .

 

[Striiker]

How much would the bribe have to be to get a mod to lock this thread? I'm willing to sell my vehicle if necessary.

 

[Sawdalite]

How much would the bribe have to be to get a mod to lock this thread? I'm willing to sell my vehicle if necessary.

Pssst (((It might be cheaper to pay a family member or buddy of yours to slap you in the back of your head when you reach for the mouse to open this thread... You are aware that you can simply not read it..... Right???)))

 

[Garbage Goal]

Still complaining? The only time I ever mention the Hartnell deal anymore is when you decide to bump these threads with inane reasons to gloat about how you were right about this all along even though you weren't.

The fact that CBJ is a brutally mismanaged team that had to resort to multiple buyouts does not speak to the merits of this trade in any way.

The Flyers benefitted from this trade, the bone most people have to pick is that people think they should have benefitted more than they did despite everything else in Hextall's career suggesting he does his due diligence and despite Columbus also not being able to move Hartnell for a quality return (reportedly) or even despite the fact that Hartnell hasn't greatly improved that team in any way. Like I said before, believe that Hartnell could have or should have fetched more despite nothing supporting that aside from stat-watching. It's a valid opinion even if I completely disagree. What doesn't make sense is that people label it as an awful trade, as represented by the fact that "should have never made the trade" has more votes than "it was beneficial to the Flyers". They got the much easier contract to swallow, aren't burdened with having to protect him going into the expansion draft, are better off cap-wise, and turned that fourth into Vorobyov and Salinitri. Those are beneficial things.

Columbus being mismanaged has nothing to do with Hartnell not being a player worth taking up a protection spot going into the Vegas expansion. Only way a team would pick him over a younger player or a player with more potential or a player with more than just top six goal-scoring to his game is if said team were extremely shallow on forwards to protect or if they were contending for the Cup and needed to keep that scoring. The Flyers have one of the most shallow forward groups in the NHL in terms of top six talent and he likely wouldn't be worth protecting if he were still here.

 

[Sawdalite]

The Flyers benefitted from this trade, the bone most people have to pick is that people think they should have benefitted more than they did despite everything else in Hextall's career suggesting he does his due diligence and despite Columbus also not being able to move Hartnell for a quality return (reportedly) or even despite the fact that Hartnell hasn't greatly improved that team in any way. Like I said before, believe that Hartnell could have or should have fetched more despite nothing supporting that aside from stat-watching. It's a valid opinion even if I completely disagree. What doesn't make sense is that people label it as an awful trade, as represented by the fact that "should have never made the trade" has more votes than "it was beneficial to the Flyers". They got the much easier contract to swallow, aren't burdened with having to protect him going into the expansion draft, are better off cap-wise, and turned that fourth into Vorobyov and Salinitri. Those are beneficial things.

Columbus being mismanaged has nothing to do with Hartnell not being a player worth taking up a protection spot going into the Vegas expansion. Only way a team would pick him over a younger player or a player with more potential or a player with more than just top six goal-scoring to his game is if said team were extremely shallow on forwards to protect or if they were contending for the Cup and needed to keep that scoring. The Flyers have one of the most shallow forward groups in the NHL in terms of top six talent and he likely wouldn't be worth protecting if he were still here.

My friend, the only way Hexy could have made a worst deal than trading for a higher Cap hit player about to be BoughtOut by his trading partner and was no longer able to compete in the NHL... and was in fact an injured player... and have to carry Dead Cap Space at the end... all the while keeping in mind that the Flyers need top 6 Winger... would be for the player traded for to also be blind in both eyes, with his Guide Dog not being able to skate... But what the hell.

... Yes it is that Hexy could have gotten a better return... that is the crux of the debate as I see it.

We are going in circles here.