If Andrei Markov wins a cup....

[Nicko999]

Absolutely...

Our best player in the last 20 years is Markov. He was the only thing (with the goalies) keeping this team in a playoff race in the early to mid 00's.

The guy already has more pts in way less games than Serge Savard who has his number retired.

But of course it won't happen because it won't be correct to retire the number of a lazy russian.

EDIT: If he stays healthy, he might pass Guy Lapointe for 2nd all-time on the Habs D-man list in 3 years. Assuming he wins a cup, how do you ignore that?

 

[Mr. Hab]

I don't know what it takes to have your jersey retired anymore. Before, you were talking about players that dominated. There's only a handful of guys that dominate in the whole NHL in today's league. It's completely different.

Yup, agree with you.

Koivu (I liked Koivu)...Markov...they should not have their jerseys retired.
But if you forced me to slect one (and I don't want to)...I'd have to choose Koivu, but neither should have their jerseys retired, imo.

PK Subban: prediction...he should be the next Hab to have his jersey retired (and I definitely see PK in the Hall of Fame).
Price: a maybe for now (jersey retired)...still plenty of time to dominate in playoffs... and then we'll see.

Absolutely...Our best player in the last 20 years is Markov. He was the only thing (with the goalies) keeping this team in a playoff race in the early to mid 00's.
The guy already has more pts in way less games than Serge Savard who has his number retired.
But of course it won't happen because it won't be correct to retire the number of a lazy russian.
EDIT: If he stays healthy, he might pass Guy Lapointe for 2nd all-time on the Habs D-man list in 3 years. Assuming he wins a cup, how do you ignore that?

Just a matter of opinion (and I'll respect yours), yours...mine,etc.

Imo (just my opinion), ever since Roy was booed and traded away for nothing...we haven't had a ''BEST'' PLAYER (Koivu was the closest)...not even close.

We've had to wait so long for these ''BEST'' PLAYERS (superstars/playoff stars) to show up (be drafted):
PK Subban(superstar/megastar/playoff beast
Price (superstar)

 

[Alexdaman]

No question if Marky ends his career and wins a cup should his number be retired.

Now the question lies whether his number should be retired without the cup... Anyways I don't think it will be before many years after he retires.

 

[beowulf]

We've had too many of them in the last few years (since the 2004-2005 lockout) and there's no way Saku or Markov or whoever the **** you want is gonna get theirs retired within the next few years.

Being true and loyal to your team is not enough. What has Markov actually won in the NHL, please tell me.

Have the ones that have been retired not deserved? I am not saying Saku or Andrei would be but the most recent stint of jersey retirements are by players that were a big part of Habs history.

 

[MXD]

Between Patrick Roy and Carey Price.... he's the better choice.

 

[Blind Gardien]

I think if he finishes out his contract on a positive note, his career totals and stature are such that he warrants a jersey retirement. I don't think he has to win a Cup for that.

He's right in the category for me with Koivu. They have been "generational" pillars for the team and should have their jerseys retired. As others have said, even if you go by past standards, if you can retire Gainey and Lapointe, you can do Koivu and Markov. (And yes, I watched them all).

 

[Et le But]

Within the next decade the Habs might need to seriously consider a second tier of honoured but unretired jerseys to avoid controversy while giving guys like Koivu and Markov their due.

 

[Not The One]

I think if he finishes out his contract on a positive note, his career totals and stature are such that he warrants a jersey retirement. I don't think he has to win a Cup for that.

He's right in the category for me with Koivu. They have been "generational" pillars for the team and should have their jerseys retired. As others have said, even if you go by past standards, if you can retire Gainey and Lapointe, you can do Koivu and Markov. (And yes, I watched them all).

Nope.

No individual accomplishments. Little team success. No intangibles to speak of. Very good career, and surely worthy of being honored, but not a "legend".

Koivu has a better case than him and I'm betting than both Subban and Price as well before long.

 

[Price is Wright]

I see a better case for Markov than Koivu, but neither should have numbers retired.

Koivu's best season point wise was 75 points. Markov's was 64 points, as a defenceman. Markov was a better hockey player, but not number retire worthy.

 

[CHwest]

Absolutely...

Our best player in the last 20 years is Markov. He was the only thing (with the goalies) keeping this team in a playoff race in the early to mid 00's.

The guy already has more pts in way less games than Serge Savard who has his number retired.

But of course it won't happen because it won't be correct to retire the number of a lazy russian.

EDIT: If he stays healthy, he might pass Guy Lapointe for 2nd all-time on the Habs D-man list in 3 years. Assuming he wins a cup, how do you ignore that?

X2 Best player over the last twenty years by far. The only bright light on a lot of teams over those years. On a good team he would get a lot more recognition.

 

[GordonGraham]

No chance even if the habs with 3 cups in his last three years

 

[Paddyjack]

There was a good paper by Stephane Laporte in La Presse recently regarding the increasing number of retired jerseys, that because of it the gesture was losing its high significance. I agree.

Couldn't there be some sort of alternative honor, some sort of Hall of Fame but the for the team to remember those great players we had but that did not make such an imprint to have their number removed? Seems to me it would be better.

 

[DAChampion]

Nope.

No individual accomplishments. Little team success. No intangibles to speak of. Very good career, and surely worthy of being honored, but not a "legend".

Koivu has a better case than him and I'm betting than both Subban and Price as well before long.

Lapointe and Gainey are not "legends".

 

[tinyzombies]

I don't see Markov as worthy of jersey retirement, even though he's been the backbone of the team for over 10 years. Still I don't see him in that echelon compared to his peers. If he singlehandedly wins us a Cup (but that doesn't happen these days).

 

[tinyzombies]

Lapointe and Gainey are not "legends".

Gainey was considered the premier shutdown forward in the game when shutdown lines were in vogue. And he put the team on his back against the Rangers to win the fourth Cup in 79. More importantly, the players he played against talked about how intimidating he was to play against. His number should definitely be retired.

Lapointe was one of the best defensemen in the league. Extremely underrated. One of those rare cases where a very good if not great player is buried on a great team. His number should definitely be retired.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Within the next decade the Habs might need to seriously consider a second tier of honoured but unretired jerseys to avoid controversy while giving guys like Koivu and Markov their due.

Why?

There's no reason to do it. We went through a bad era, it happens to every franchise. You don't sugarcoat it by retiring players who were inferior to the legends who are retired. If it takes 20 more years before there's a player who's worthy, wait the 20 years.

Edit: Whoops I misread your post. Sorry. Thought you were arguing that they should be retired. Nothing to see here, carry on.

Lapointe and Gainey are not "legends".

Bob Gainey is the reason the Selke exists in the first place. Yes, he's a legend.

Lapointe was a four time all-star. Six times he finished in the top five for the Norris. He came in runner up for the Norris to some guy named Bobby Orr. HOF career, mulitple cups. That's one hell of a career man. And it took him over 30 years to get his jersey retired.

How well do you think Markov or Koivu will be remembered 30 years from now?

Toe Blake? Sure.
Lapointe? Sure.

Koivu and Markov? No way.

 

[Rapala]

Within the next decade the Habs might need to seriously consider a second tier of honoured but unretired jerseys to avoid controversy while giving guys like Koivu and Markov their due.

I agree the rafters need to remain sacred.
Markov would absolutely need to win a cup to be rafter material regardless of his overall numbers.

 

[Hackett]

No chance even if the habs with 3 cups in his last three years

3 Stanley cups

PLUS being top 2-3 in team history for goals assists and points is not enough to get a jersey retired for a team that has been around for over 100 years?

Laughable

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

3 Stanley cups and being top 2-3 in team history for goals assists and points is not enough to get a jersey retired for a team that has been around for over 100 years?

Laughable

Tell that to Toe Blake.

 

[Hackett]

Tell that to Toe Blake.

Hard to believe he isn't there. I gotta look up his numbers though. I know he was a really good player but I tend to hear more about toe Blake the coach rather than toe blake the player

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Hard to believe he isn't there. I gotta look up his numbers though. I know he was a really good player but I tend to hear more about toe Blake the coach rather than toe blake the player

Just to put things in perspective, there are 62 players who've suited up for the Habs and who've gone into the HOF. Granted, some of those players are guys like Denis Savard and Doug Gilmour who made their names elsewhere but look at some of the guys who haven't had their jersey's retired. Lapointe is only happening now.

Toe Blake. I posted his resume in another thread, but here it is again.
HOF
5x All Star
1x Hart Trophy
1x Scoring title
6x Top ten in scoring
5x Top ten in goals
Considered a top 100 player in THN's original top 100
3 x Stanley Cup champ* (in 6 team league)
Team Captain
Great Coaching career afterwards winning multiple cups

*One cup w. Maroons in only 1 game played

George Hainsworth
HOF
3 x Vezina
Top 50 player all-time THN

Aurele Joliat
HOF
Top 100 player all time THN
4 x All Star
1 Hart Trophy
3 x top five finish for Hart
9 x top10 for points
7 x top10 for goals
3 Stanley cups

Granted... its a totally different era. But that's still a great resume.

Newsy Lalonde. Spent most of his career pre-NHL but in the four NHL seasons he was with us:
HOF
Top 40 player all time THN
2 scoring titles
1x goal scoring title
4x top 4 in points
4x top 4 in goals

Georges Vezina - Goalie stats are sketch back then but to sum up...
HOF
Top 100 player All time
Stanley Cup Champion x 1
3 x Led league in GAA
Has Vezina trophy named after him.

Steve Shutt - the case for Shutt is less compelling than those already retired. But he's still got a nice resume.
HOF
1 goal scoring title
record for LW goal scoring that stood for about 15 years.
4 x top 10 in goals
1 x top 3 in points
5 x Cup Champ*

*1973 cup he played one postseason game

Bill Durnan
HOF
Top 40 player all time THN
In 7 NHL Seasons he was a 1st team All-star 6 times
6 x Vezina
3 x top five for Hart trophy. Runner up once
2 x Stanley Cup Champ

Jacques Lemaire (See Steve Shutt)
HOF
8x Stanley Cup Champion
3x top ten in points

Guy Carbonneau
2 x Stanley Cup Champion(won a 3rd in Dallas)
Captain of '93 team
3 x Selke Winner + twice runner up
9 x top 5 in Selke voting
Not in HOF (yet?)


Lots of really good players up there with legitimate HOF resumes and many won't see their jersey ever retired. Andrei Markov and Saku Koivu can get in line. If Blake can't make it to jersey retirement or if Durnan can't do it, I don't see how anyone can seriously suggest that either of those other two are worthy.

And no, I don't think Markov should be retired even if we do win a cup with him.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

To put it in perspective further:

Andrei Markov
6th in Norris x 2
0 All-star selections
won't be in HOF

Saku Koivu
Captain for 10 years
Masterson Award
Clancy Award
0 x All star
1 x averaged over point per game
won't be in HOF

Compare this to Chelios who played with us for six seasons

Chelios (Montreal only)
HOF (career spent mostly elsewhere but significant time in Montreal)
Top 40 player all time THN
1 x Norris
3 x top 10 Norris voting
1 x top 5 in Hart voting
1 x 1st team All star
Team Captain (shared w. Carbonneau)
1 x Stanley cup + 1 cup final
NHL All Rookie Team

 

[Rapala]

To put it in perspective:

Andrei Markov
6th in Norris x 2
0 All-star selections
won't be in HOF

Saku Koivu
Captain for 10 years
Masterson Award
Clancy Award
0 x All star
1 x averaged over point per game
won't be in HOF

Compare this to Chelios who played with us for six seasons

Chelios (Montreal only)
HOF (career spent mostly elsewhere but significant time in Montreal)
Top 40 player all time THN
1 x Norris
3 x top 10 Norris voting
1 x top 5 in Hart voting
1 x 1st team All star
Team Captain (shared w. Carbonneau)
1 x Stanley cup + 1 cup final
NHL All Rookie Team

I recant.
Slam Dunk...

Not even a tier two display before some of these worthy men are acknowledged.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I recant.
Slam Dunk...

Not even a tier two display before some of these worthy men are acknowledged.

Keep in mind the list doesn't even include a guy like Sprague Cleghorn who was another top 100 player and one of the best defensemen in the league when he was with Montreal. The Norris didn't exist when he was playing or he might've had a couple himself. Joe Malone is another all time great not even mentioned here. Yes, they had short stints, played in different eras and with other teams, but they are all time great players.

There are tons of guys ahead of Koivu and Markov. Even with a cup, I don't see how those two come even close to measuring up.

 

[CanadienShark]

Within the next decade the Habs might need to seriously consider a second tier of honoured but unretired jerseys to avoid controversy while giving guys like Koivu and Markov their due.

Agreed. We'll run out of jerseys soon enough.