Blue Jays Discussion: If a Blue Jay falls in a Tavares/Kawhi forest and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound?

[Anthrax442]

most pro athletes are regular people. he just got caught.

but sure we can be the pure jays and let other teams benefit.

 

[zeke]

What are people’s thoughts on Gurriel Jr’s long term potential? Seems like a beauty every time I watch him. I like him and Bo up the middle starting as soon as next season or at least for 2020. Drury hopefully works out at 3B and Vladdy to 1B. Hope we can find a stud in the outfield to go with Grichuk and one of Pompey, Alford, etc. Hernandez to DH. I kinda like the future look of the team. Hope Sanchez can work out his finger issues but also excited about Pearson, Pannone, Borucki too. Oh and Jansen behind the plate. Exciting.

I'm still skeptical. he's got obvious contact skills and solid power, but that alone won't be enough to make him an above average hitter I don't think. he swings at everything and once pitchers start challenging him with the nasty stuff, like they have with teoscar, he's going to have to stop swinging so much.

and unfortunately despite his athleticism the defense doesn't look good to me. I wouldn't mind seeing him in the OF to be honest.

 

[Nineteen67]

If Osuna was a replacement level player, everyone would be down with cutting him. Being very good doesn’t excuse his actions.

The poster above who said he “made a mistake”, come on. You think he was an angel, then woke up one day and hit his wife? There are other forms of domestic violence that aren’t physical, which you barely hear about. There’s a progression to get to this point. He’s a POS and it’ll be great when he’s no longer associated with this team.

I agree with you, but I’d like all the facts first. If he did what we think he did, how could anyone cheer for him?

 

[Nineteen67]

I wouldn’t include football players. I’m guessing, as more and more upper and middle class families steer their kids away from football, it’ll get a lot worse

 

[trellaine201]

Alleged assault. He hasn’t been convicted other than by you and MLB.

 

[zeke]

There’s a difference between being a dick and assaulting your significant other.

sure there are plenty of others with assault-ish incidents.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

If Osuna was a replacement level player, everyone would be down with cutting him. Being very good doesn’t excuse his actions.

The poster above who said he “made a mistake”, come on. You think he was an angel, then woke up one day and hit his wife? There are other forms of domestic violence that aren’t physical, which you barely hear about. There’s a progression to get to this point. He’s a POS and it’ll be great when he’s no longer associated with this team.

Confirmed, E5.

 

[Eyedea]

I wouldn’t include football players. I’m guessing, as more and more upper and middle class families steer their kids away from football, it’ll get a lot worse

And Osuna came from Sinaloa, where dropping out of school at 12 makes sense and the druglords are seen as heroes. A lot of these latin baseball players come from similar, if not worse areas.

 

[Nineteen67]

Confirmed, E5.



I see the thread has jumped the shark this morning.

Are pulling a Dan Mullen?

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

And Osuna came from Sinaloa, where dropping out of school at 12 makes sense and the druglords are seen as heroes. A lot of these latin baseball players come from similar, if not worse areas.

The closest any damn person criticizing him has come to that kind of lifestyle is watching Sicario.

All due respect to all the twitter warriors, and the homie Bud Norris, but they can go **** themselves.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Are pulling a Dan Mullen?

English, please.



Anyway, it would be kind of silly to sell low on him today. Especially if the reason is "I don't want to face a crowd of snowflakes August 5th," which it ultimately would be. I understand managing Rep Risk, but that's just silly.

All that said, if Houston came knocking talking about a package starting with a Tucker or a Forrest Whitley (also selling low for them given the suspension), then Omar listening.

 

[BlueForever75]

I agree with you, but I’d like all the facts first. If he did what we think he did, how could anyone cheer for him?

Whether Osuna has had a buildup to get to this point or whether it was a one time thing. Without facts we cannot pass judgement on any individual. Whether its a ball player or a regular human being.

Crucifying an individual and not allowing him to make good on his mistakes in life isn't what we should all be about. It wasn't like he was swinging around a gun like other closers in the past that have gotten a second chance and made good on it. We don't know specifics, and until we do speaking of Osuna as some are is totally stupid and dumb.

If he got into a shouting match, and was at the wrong place at the wrong time....is this something that is inexcusable? How about if it weren't him that initiated contact and it was in self defense that he was charged with assault? When facts come out and his case is thrown out, is it then that we can say that he deserves a second chance?

All I am saying is that there are 3 things that speak to this not being as serious as some have made it out to be. One, MLB has lifted his ban after their investigation. If it were as serious as some are making it out to be, he still would be suspended. They did their due diligence, took some time to ensure they understood the specifics and reinstated him. Number two, for Osuna and his representation to put in a not guilty plea...there needs to be some evidence against what he is being accused of. And finally, the Jays would not allow Osuna to represent their organization if there is any doubt that he would be charged and the details of his actions were worse then they actually are being assumed to be. I am sure the Jays and Rogers for that matter have done their due diligence as well!!!

I just think some of you really need to know the facts before passing judgement. You have none right now, and if they come out with bad facts I too will change my stance. But as of now I don't know anything other then accusations have been made, and I know how bad the Ontario legal system is when it comes to domestic violence. All that is needed is a woman needs to call the cops and say she was verbally abused or even physically abused and the man is arrested and charged. Even if there is no evidence or anything. All you need is a crying woman!! I know this sounds insensitive, but its the truth....I know this because I am involved in law and I see it all the time. Ends up 80 percent of the time going to courts and thrown out either to charges being dropped by so called victim or the other party was as much as fault as the other.

So Osuna being put in a holding cell, released and ordered to stay away does not mean anything. And my guess is it will turn into nothing.

 

[zeke]

shatkins gonna give away the best reliever of his generation.

probably for a mid20s utility guy or two.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

What do you guys think of going after Jose Martinez? The Cards basically want to trade him cause he can't play defense and would be better as a DH. I think he's under control for 3-4 more seasons. Maybe give them Smoak who can play defense but is only under control through next season?

 

[Mach85]

The closest any damn person criticizing him has come to that kind of lifestyle is watching Sicario.

All due respect to all the twitter warriors, and the homie Bud Norris, but they can go **** themselves.

I think it's ok to condemn the action and say that, regardless of where he comes from and what the conditions are on average, he is a human with higher-level thinking abilities at the end of the day and does know that beating a defenceless loved one until she's bloody is wrong. However, that doesn't mean that taking into consideration factors that help explain the commission of the act = condoning the act. There's a difference between an excuse and an explanation.

None of us is around the day-to-day operations of the Blue Jays and none of us knows Roberto Osuna personally. We will never know the level of contrition that he has shown or will show, and further, we don't even know the details of the incident right now (let's assume he's guilty for the purpose of this post). We're a society that believes in redemption and rehabilitation. Osuna is going to pitch elsewhere again. We could take a moral stand and trade him for pennies on the dollar, but for what? Do we have a higher moral duty than the acquiring team to keep him off our roster? And where does it go from there, do we immediately release/trade any player in the system who commits a crime? The roster move would just be for show otherwise.

I'd say the Jays have the duty to ensure Roberto is provided with all of the resources he needs to successfully rehabilitate. If he doesn't show the requisite contrition and commitment to rehabilitation, then that's a different matter and perhaps he should be moved. Because, for one reason, he becomes a liability.

I've also heard the argument that someone who commits a violent crime should relinquish the privilege of playing as a professional athlete, and enjoying the luxuries that come from such a job. That means the person can still be rehabilitated but isn't kept from earning a living. I can see the logic in this and even agree with it on some level, as I too of course find that act reprehensible. But there are two problems: 1) MLB will never approve such a policy, meaning the original team will be standing on that hill alone. 2) That's a form of vigilante justice and I'm not fully comfortable with the moral implications of that either. When we put our trust in the justice system, we relinquish our ability to mete out our own justice.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

shatkins gonna give away the best reliever of his generation.

probably for a mid20s utility guy or two.

I really hope not.

Also, and not that this has anything to do with anything, but does Atkins give anyone else a sort of beta-male vibe? The guy looks and speaks like he skipped puberty or something. I wonder if an opposing GM looks at him and thinks, "Yeah, I got this." jk

 

[le_sean]

Confirmed, E5.

You do know that less than 1% of domestic violence allegations are false right?

Also the MLB and their own investigators got enough info to hand him a 75 game suspension.

So yeah, I’ll go out on a limb and say he did it.

 

[Nineteen67]

All I am saying is that there are 3 things that speak to this not being as serious as some have made it out to be. One, MLB has lifted his ban after their investigation. If it were as serious as some are making it out to be, he still would be suspended. They did their due diligence, took some time to ensure they understood the specifics and reinstated him. Number two, for Osuna and his representation to put in a not guilty plea...there needs to be some evidence against what he is being accused of. And finally, the Jays would not allow Osuna to represent their organization if there is any doubt that he would be charged and the details of his actions were worse then they actually are being assumed to be. I am sure the Jays and Rogers for that matter have done their due diligence as well!!!
.

Did the MLB lift his suspension?

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I really hope not.

Also, and not that this has anything to do with anything, but does Atkins give anyone else a sort of beta-male vibe? The guy looks and speaks like he skipped puberty or something. I wonder if an opposing GM looks at him and thinks, "Yeah, I got this." jk

Wow...'twas a professional athlete, sir.

You do know that less than 1% of domestic violence allegations are false right?

Also the MLB and their own investigators got enough info to hand him a 75 game suspension.

So yeah, I’ll go out on a limb and say he did it.

Read the Canadian criminal code, and the definition of domestic assault, specifically the myriad of words and actions that are included within the definition. Then, couple that with the fact that we, the public, still do not know the details of the situation.

 

[deletethis]

most pro athletes are regular people. he just got caught.

And none of us know how we'd behave in a vast array of circumstances we haven't lived in. Shower most of us with love, stuff, opportunity, an endless parade of the object(s) of our attraction, etc. and we're getting a little full of ourselves and start feeling a little invincible and beyond the normal rules of society in some way or another.

I also have no doubt that the most publicly sanctimonious would be the biggest monsters given a little power and adoration.

I actually believe the most odious predatory individuals aren't usually caught. They think ahead, head off any issue ahead of time and pay for silence. It's the naive fool with a bad temper who gets caught early. He/she thinks it's something that can be worked out and forgiven.

 

[Paladin2799]

shatkins gonna give away the best reliever of his generation.

probably for a mid20s utility guy or two.

If they give away Osuna for trash, I think my love of the jays is done.

 

[le_sean]

Read the Canadian criminal code, and the definition of domestic assault, specifically the myriad of words and actions that are included within the definition. Then, couple that with the fact that we, the public, still do not know the details of the situation.

Thanks, I’m quite clear on the law. He didn’t necessarily hit her, but he still did something that scared her to the point of telling the police. You seem to be under the the assumption that it’s easy pursue criminal charges against your significant other.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

9

Wow...'twas a professional athlete, sir.

So was Bruce Jenner.

 

[deletethis]

shatkins gonna give away the best reliever of his generation.

probably for a mid20s utility guy or two.

Stuff happens. The management has to do what it has to do. Osuna could have blown out his arm or fallen off a yacht and no sane person would blame the GM for bad asset management.

 

[Melo Meds]

Yea, let's trade our young stud closer for what will probably be a very underwhelming return and open up a massive hole which we have struggled filling since he was suspended... What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? He was suspended already and if he is found guilty I have no problem with any future discipline but people need to pump the brakes.