I wouldn’t be surprised if Matthews won the Art Ross

[Frank Drebin]

So the Pens, Lightning, Bruins and Caps all play pond hockey? The Caps and Lightning both allowed more goals than the Leafs last year.

And more ice time in general, he's one of the best 5 on 5 players in the NHL with tough deployment as well. It doesn't matter what circumstance he's out there for, he's still going to produce. Playing more in tight games also gives him the chance to pick up EN goals/assists to bump up his stats.

They are all high scoring teams that are involved in high scoring games which help pad offensive stats.
You guys are so set on displaying how crippling Matthews situation is you forget how good he has it too. When your team scores 275 goals a year, your best players will rack up points.

 

[King Mapes]

I'm talking about the sheer amount of pucks that the leafs put in the net. It has nothing to do with Matthews' defensive ability.
He has the opportunity to play in more 7-6 games than a guy like Kopitar, Eichel or McDavid does.

Of course but he also will get less ice time because of the offensive support as well.

A guy like Crosby has a lot of offensive support as well.

Though McDavid shouldn't be in that list. He plays with Draisaitl..

 

[FalcorMulch]

If Matthews was in Arizona, or outside of Toronto, no way does he get the ridiculous hype of being up there with McDavid.

This is a ridiculous take. 1st overall, 4 goal debut, 40 goal rookie season, Calder, last place team to playoffs (not that it's all on him, but it's part of the story), point per game sophmore season with an even higher goal pace, quick out the gate in his third season. He would be getting this hype wherever he played.

No one is saying he's up there with McDavid. Saying it's possible that a player contends for the Art Ross does not mean you think he's as good as the guy who is the unanimous favorite to win.

 

[BAM]

Jack Eichel plays for a team that scored 78 less goals than the leafs did last year but still managed 64 points in 67 games. Is it fair to assume if he played for a team that scored 40% more goals (like Matthews did) his numbers might go up?

He also got gifted far more ice-time and pp time than Matthews, like massive amounts. You can't really go up in ice-time from where Eichel is at, you can with Matthews however. And plus, playing on a team with more offensive talent means that Eichel's minutes would by virtue go down as well meaning he's got less ice-time to rack up those points.

 

[Frank Drebin]

He also got gifted far more ice-time and pp time than Matthews, like massive amounts. You can't really go up in ice-time from where Eichel is at, you can with Matthews however. And plus, playing on a team with more offensive talent means that Eichel's minutes would by virtue go down as well meaning he's got less ice-time to rack up those points.

So he might score the same amount of points in less ice time, which would be reflected in a higher p/60?

 

[BAM]

They are all high scoring teams that are involved in high scoring games which help pad offensive stats.
You guys are so set on displaying how crippling Matthews situation is you forget how good he has it too. When your team scores 275 goals a year, your best players will rack up points.

Except Matthews does have to deal with not getting the ice time other star players get, that's a fact. He was on pace for 45 goals and 83 points last year while having the 40th most ice-time among centers. This was also with being on the second pp unit. Can't score if you can't be on the ice.

 

[BAM]

So he might score the same amount of points in less ice time, which would be reflected in a higher p/60?

That's all hypothetical, he would need to do it like Matthews has hence why he's being favoured. If Eichel produces less with the decreased ice-time his p60 will go down.

 

[IPS]

we had a whole bunch of those threads posting what "reputable hockey analysts" thought about Matthews.

They were mocked as Leafs Pandering.

Funny. The main boards always attempt to gaslight Leafs fans into thinking paid professionals have a bias towards Matthews when it's been proven multiple times in the past that there is no such thing, and that you need to come to HFBoards to get objective opinions on Matthews.

 

[Cor]

That leaves Euro media. They are credible.

But they are biased against Matthews because they think Laine is better.

So no one is credible!

 

[Cup or Bust]

Canadian media pumping up Matthews
HF: LOL Toronto sports network makes me sick

US media pumping up Matthews
HF: LOL they're just hyping up their american born

Coaches pumping up Matthews/calling him generational
HF: They're just being nice

Players pumping up Matthews
HF: LOL all hockey players are overly complimentary on their peers

Stats pump up Matthews
HF: LOL fake stats

Eye test backs up Matthews
HF:LOL Leafs not winning anything with that defense, pond hockey structure

Negative threads about Matthews:
HF: no comment regarding Matthews always being brought up

Positive thread about Matthews:
HF: Why is Matthews always being posted about, I hate him! I know nobody is forcing me to click on these threads but I can't help it!

I think I've covered them all.

That is because Leaf fans seem to expect fans of every other team to credit and praise Matthews the same as players who have actually scored 90 points, who have actually scored 100 points, who have actually won Hart Trophies, Art Ross Trophies, and Rocket Richard Trophies. So the argument is because Leaf fans think Matthews is amazing and should and could do amazing things, that all fans should be praising him as if he has done them already. How about once he has done it, people put him in that category.

If McDavid had Matthews stats thus far in his career and Oilers fans used the word generational or said he was better than Crosby or Malkin, they would get laughed off this message board by me and everyone else.

 

[Frank Drebin]

That's all hypothetical, he would need to do it like Matthews has hence why he's being favoured. If Eichel produces less with the decreased ice-time his p60 will go down.

Do you think its possible that Matthews is currently in the best situation available to have the highest P/60 in the league? Do you think McDavid for example benefits from being ran like a dog for 23 minutes a game?

I'm suggesting that there is a sweet spot for ice time, if a player plays the full 60 minutes, he's not going to get triple the amount of points he had when he played 20 minutes a game.

The PP1 unit though, should boost his totals for sure, especially with that release.

 

[Discoverer]

For this season? I think he can be a 90-point player, but 3 games in you aren't going to find any accurate statistics to illustrate this.

Right, but is anyone actually projecting based on a three game sample? It's just being included as part of a larger sample, which it should be.

 

[BAM]

That is because Leaf fans seem to expect fans of every other team to credit and praise Matthews the same as players who have actually scored 90 points, who have actually scored 100 points, who have actually won Hart Trophies, Art Ross Trophies, and Rocket Richard Trophies. So the argument is because Leaf fans think Matthews is amazing and should and could do amazing things, that all fans should be praising him as if he has done them already. How about once he has done it, people put him in that category.

If McDavid had Matthews stats thus far in his career and Oilers fans used the word generational or said he was better than Crosby or Malkin, they would get laughed off this message board by me and everyone else.

Nobody is calling Matthews better than Malkin or Crosby or McDavid however. Most Leaf fans don't think that. I myself have repeatedly stated that I believe Matthews can be the second best player in the NHL after McDavid and has 90-100 point potential. The player he most reminds me of is Malkin since he's entered the league and I do think he has that kind of potential, whether he reaches it or not is to be seen.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Nobody is calling Matthews better than Malkin or Crosby or McDavid however. Most Leaf fans don't think that. I myself have repeatedly stated that I believe Matthews can be the second best player in the NHL after McDavid and has 90-100 point potential. The player he most reminds me of is Malkin since he's entered the league and I do think he has that kind of potential, whether he reaches it or not is to be seen.

Ask your boy @zeke about that. Through manipulation of statistics, he actually showed that Matthews was the better offensive player than Malkin over the past two seasons. Not making this up.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Should we link to last year's Matthews VS McDavid thread where countless Leaf fans stated "we'll see by the end of the year" that Matthews >= McDavid because we was better for the first like 10 games?

Youd think they would learn by now...

 

[Foppberg]

Dahlin was drafted by Buffalo and was being parroted as generational and a better player than Matthews but sure, hype only exists in Toronto

Ditto for EP being better than Hischier or Marner, all Toronto hype

Sure

 

[BAM]

Do you think its possible that Matthews is currently in the best situation available to have the highest P/60 in the league? Do you think McDavid for example benefits from being ran like a dog for 23 minutes a game?

I'm suggesting that there is a sweet spot for ice time, if a player plays the full 60 minutes, he's not going to get triple the amount of points he had when he played 20 minutes a game.

The PP1 unit though, should boost his totals for sure, especially with that release.

Sure but there's 40 centers that played more than Matthews last year, the simple principle is that you can't score if you're not on the ice. Matthews being 40th among centers in ice-time and still being on pace for 45 goals and 83 points is remarkable.

In basketball, more often than not, a player that plays 30 minutes a game is going to score less than a similar player playing 36-38 minutes per game. Same logic applies to hockey, Matthews can't score if he's not being given the ice-time that other top centers receive. That's not on him either, Babcock is notorious for doing that with his lines and giving them even distribution ice time wise. He does no favours for point totals when you factor that and the fact that he's been icing even pp units instead of stacking one up until this season. That alone over the past 2 years really stunted the production of Matthers and Nylander. When Nylander gets signed he'll probably take over for Kadri on pp1 so that the Leafs actually have a top 6 center ready to go on the second unit.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Jack Eichel plays for a team that scored 78 less goals than the leafs did last year but still managed 64 points in 67 games. Is it fair to assume if he played for a team that scored 40% more goals (like Matthews did) his numbers might go up?

no. The only time I see teammates mattering are
1) they play with the player at 5v5 to boost their performance
2) they play together on the powerplay to boost production
3) the players draw the opposition's best/shutdown players, freeing up the players in question to play against lesser talent

I don't think any of those really apply with regards to Matthews and Eichel. It didn't really help Matthews that Marner or Kadri were doing great while on a different line and the opposition still sent out their best players vs Matthews

Do you think its possible that Matthews is currently in the best situation available to have the highest P/60 in the league? Do you think McDavid for example benefits from being ran like a dog for 23 minutes a game?

I'm suggesting that there is a sweet spot for ice time, if a player plays the full 60 minutes, he's not going to get triple the amount of points he had when he played 20 minutes a game.

The PP1 unit though, should boost his totals for sure, especially with that release.

no, he's not. thus far he's played a pretty good amount of minutes at 5v5, and against top competition and with an anchor in Hyman. it is possible that out of star players he's been in one of the worst situations to put up raw points though

 

[zeke]

Jack Eichel plays for a team that scored 78 less goals than the leafs did last year but still managed 64 points in 67 games. Is it fair to assume if he played for a team that scored 40% more goals (like Matthews did) his numbers might go up?

Are you saying Buffalo plays a tight defensive system?

Maybe one of buffalo's problems is that they play a guy like Eichel way more minutes than Matthews, when he is much less productive in those minutes?

Is it fair to hold team success against a player when he is the single biggest reason for that success?

 

[BAM]

Sure

"I was proven wrong"

It's okay happens to you far more than you'd like to admit

 

[IPS]

Are you saying Buffalo plays a tight defensive system?

Maybe one of buffalo's problems is that they play a guy like Eichel way more minutes than Matthews, when he is much less productive in those minutes?

Is it fair to hold team success against a player when he is the single biggest reason for that success?

Funny how it's ok to go the route of "but muh teammates!" with Eichel yet when it's brought up that Hyman was welded to Matthews' hip for every minute of his first 2 seasons we have to hear about how good Hyman is.

 

[Foppberg]

"I was proven wrong"

It's okay happens to you far more than you'd like to admit

No, I just don't care.

 

[snipes]

Should we link to last year's Matthews VS McDavid thread where countless Leaf fans stated "we'll see by the end of the year" that Matthews >= McDavid because we was better for the first like 10 games?

Youd think they would learn by now...

I said early on in that thread that I bet McDavid would have more assists by the end of he year than Matthews did points. Turned out I was right.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Are you saying Buffalo plays a tight defensive system?

Maybe one of buffalo's problems is that they play a guy like Eichel way more minutes than Matthews, when he is much less productive in those minutes?

Is it fair to hold team success against a player when he is the single biggest reason for that success?

No buffalo was just terrible. They didn't have the offensive support that Toronto did either. The top defensive units were allowed to focus on Eichel all the time. Eichel also didn't get the benefit of playing with 2 50 point puck moving defensemen.

As for the bolded, maybe I should count the goals scored when A.M was out of the lineup and toronto posted that 100 point pace.

 

[zeke]

Ask your boy @zeke about that. Through manipulation of statistics, he actually showed that Matthews was the better offensive player than Malkin over the past two seasons. Not making this up.

Actually, the two have been pretty similar over the previous 2yrs.

16/17-17/18 (including playoffs)

Malkin: A- qoc, 2.64p60, 2.31p160, +1.2cfrel, +0.3xgfrel (PP 7.26p60, 4.56p160)
Matthews: A- qoc, 2.53p60, 2.30p160, +1.5cfrel, +2.9xgfrel (PP 5.83p60, 4.17p160)

of course, that includes Matthews' rookie season.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Art Ross?
Highly Unlikely. Unless McDavid gets injured and a few of the other front runners suffer injuries as well.
His play making is just not at that super elite level yet. Before I get jumped on, he’s a good playmaker just not at the same level as the great ones. He has a better shot at the Rocket. Historically players who win the Art Ross are elite playmakers with a few exceptions like Corey Perry who won with others getting injured. Matthews may get there some day though if he continues to improve as a playmaker. But unlikely this year even though the Leafs look like a team who are going to go all out on offense. At some point I think Babcock will get them to play better defense as he has his eye on the bigger prize.