Proposal: I think its time RE: Nyquist AND Tatar

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

not sure if it was mentioned before but Tatar has some issues with his arm...

in slovak newspapers i read he"s thinking about operation

Pretty sure he said his shoulder, Not arm but any ways he said his shoulder has been bothering him since last season and that has been affecting his game here.

 

[jkutswings]

Id' be evern more concerned than that if Holland didn't think those 2 players would be huge additions to our garbage pile that we call our defense.

I don't know why people resort to this type of argument. That 1 move doesn't put us in instant cup contention, so who cares if it happens or not. Flawed way of thinking, to me. We need to make a number of moves, including picking up defenseman like that.

Because, for some reason, every player that walks through the doors of The Joe becomes a sacred cow, never to be dealt. And since the applecart shalt not be upseteth, if a single trade doesn't immediately solve every problem, then it must be an evil thing that has a 99% chance to end in disaster.

But yes, in reality, since the Doughtys and Karlssons of the world aren't waltzing through the door anytime soon, a smart approach would be to make a series of moves for guys like a Fowler, and gradually improve a deficit into a strength. And if shedding those forwards during that approach also results in one or more top 5 picks - where you're most likely to find elite forwards to fill those holes and then some - well, I won't exactly be heartbroken over the process, because the final product has a decent chance to be head and shoulders better than what's on the ice at the moment, even if it takes some sacrifice to get there.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

If you're in trade talks or in FA you probably shouldn't publicly say how good you really think the guy you're targeting is. What's being said behing closed doors is likely quite different.

That said, Fowler has been a 30-40 point guy up until this season and has somewhat struggled against top opposition in all the possession metrics and Hero Charts that people love so much. And Stralman going from a 13 point player to a 30+ point player wasn't real easy to predict even if he was an analytics darling.

I'd honestly be more concerned if Holland & Co. thought the missing piece towards being a contender was guys like Stralman or Fowler. What is Stralman if Tampa doesn't have Hedman? What is Fowler if Anaheim doesn't have Getzlaf, Perry, Lindholm and Vatanen?

Trading everything and the kitchen sink for players that are not going to be the elite pieces that lift you out of mediocrity is foolish. Everyone said the Isles were so smart for trading for guys like Leddy and Boychuck. But those guys aren't worth much when you're missing that truly legit building block.

I get that you have a massive, massive love affair with Ken Holland and you simply cannot imagine any other GM operating the team in a different fashion with more immediate or long-term success. No one, however, ever suggested that we move everything and the kitchen sink for Fowler (unless Tatar or Gus + picks is the new standard for everything and the kitchen sink).

Given the current state of our team and the lack of meaningful improvement on the back end over the last five years, Mr. Holland should not be applauded for completely ignoring the trade market.

 

[Henkka]

It's quite funny when Holland has been saying in many news articles about some trade ideas that "prizes were too high".

And people will blame him for "doing nothing", when he has been analyzing those trade prizes, has been negotiating and has evaded from every negotiation, because a losing trade just for a trade is a bad trade and bad management. Period.

Then we hear these busted rumours few years later that the asking price was Mantha or Larkin or those 1st picks (oh there goes Bertuzzi-pick too) we did use to draft them.

Holland would look totally stupid giving them away for Bouwmeester or something like that. But he has made a right call every time not doing these stupid trades.

And will get critic about doing nothing, when he has done a hell of a job analyzing those moves right. They would had hurt the team on long run. Everybody can see that now.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I get that you have a massive, massive love affair with Ken Holland and you simply cannot imagine any other GM operating the team in a different fashion with more immediate or long-term success. No one, however, ever suggested that we move everything and the kitchen sink for Fowler (unless Tatar or Gus + picks is the new standard for everything and the kitchen sink).

I would say 90% of the fanbase was onboard with a Tatar+pick trade for Fowler. Maybe slightly less were positive for a Nyquist+pick trade, but still easily a majority. Most didn't want the pick to be a 1st, but still.

Not hating on Holland for not doing imaginary moves that hfboards have deemed possible to make isn't having a love affair with the guy. Show me a reliable source that says Anaheim was willing to trade Fowler for Tatar+pick and you'll find me first line to bash Holland for not pulling the trigger.

Id' be evern more concerned than that if Holland didn't think those 2 players would be huge additions to our garbage pile that we call our defense.

I don't know why people resort to this type of argument. That 1 move doesn't put us in instant cup contention, so who cares if it happens or not. Flawed way of thinking, to me. We need to make a number of moves, including picking up defenseman like that.

Again, Stralman had 13 points before going into FA. He had no interest in Detroit (I'm sure this is Holland's fault and not the weather or the tax differences etc) and had been outscored by Kindl two years in a row. We also wouldn't have a Hedman to put next to him anytime soon. We signed Green a year later who I think is a better player anyway.

As for Fowler we know Holland wanted/wants him. Same with Trouba. And Shattenkirk. And Suter. And Edler. And Phaneuf. And so on. Holland hasn't been interested in almost every d-man in FA and the trade market for the last 5 years because he's happy with our D.

 

[Frk It]

Again, Stralman had 13 points before going into FA. He had no interest in Detroit (I'm sure this is Holland's fault and not the weather or the tax differences etc) and had been outscored by Kindl two years in a row. We also wouldn't have a Hedman to put next to him anytime soon. We signed Green a year later who I think is a better player anyway.

The point of a pro scout is to go and watch the player, and see if they are better/worse than their numbers indicate, and advise on how the player might fare in an expanded/different role or on a new team.

I believe it's an indication of a bigger problem, is what I am getting at. Which is -- they're not good at evaluating players.

As for Fowler we know Holland wanted/wants him.

Well of course, why not. But all that really matters is... at what price? And again, I don't trust the people advising him making that determination. And if they aren't getting the job done, it's his job to find people that can.

 

[bethylfan]

Yeah, let's give them away and give up some of the only offense we have.

 

[TheMule93]

Yeah, let's give them away and give up some of the only offense we have.

Tatar isn't providing any offense. Nyquist provided some nice offense to start the year but has been almost invisible sense.

We aren't giving up any offense if we trade them.

 

[Geeve]

Easy answer for me, Nyquist just better overall. Better two way player, skater and slight physical advantage, he avoids contact but doesn't seem like deer in headlights when a check is coming. More long term potential IMO, move Tatar first.

 

[ap3x]

What Gus concerns, feel free to read this article. Not saying that he shouldn't get himself a couple of goals, but generally sums up my perception & appreciation of his performance.

 

[HIFE]

What Gus concerns, feel free to read this article. Not saying that he shouldn't get himself a couple of goals, but generally sums up my perception & appreciation of his performance.

Interesting, thanks for the link. Impressive amount of data to explain the fact Gus is performing quite adequately.

No, he's not the next Sidney Crosby, Pavel Datsyuk, or Henrik Zetterberg. However, he's still an exceptionally talented player in his own right. Why don't we appreciate Nyquist for what he is - a highly cerebral, playmaking forward who scores like a first liner, positively impacts shot attempts, and is cost-controlled at $4.75 million for the next two seasons?

 

[InGusWeTrust]

What Gus concerns, feel free to read this article. Not saying that he shouldn't get himself a couple of goals, but generally sums up my perception & appreciation of his performance.

Basically what this tells me if he is the guy on the PP that is set up to shoot. He will do his job and shoot. Unlike as of recent the other guys on the team have not been.

Good article though.

 

[HockeyinHD]

I don't know why people resort to this type of argument.

Because some people understand what the team wants to do better than others.

Detroit has no interest in making trades for mid-level players they intend to retain long term. Those trades are very difficult to win in a macro, multi-year sense given how efficient Detroit is in getting exactly that kind of player in the draft. They will make trades at the bottom for spare parts and they will make trades at the deadline for rentals.

For a guy they want to keep, they target them in the offseason as a FA. If they can't land that guy then, they (rightly) presume they'd have had a hard time keeping him after they traded for him.

Detroit can, has and will continue to go to the max on top tier guys who come available, but absent that opportunity they are content to play the averages and coast along... at least that's been the case in this run-up to the new building. On the far side of that, who knows?

Absent an improvement to their top tier, spending organizational assets to get a mid-level guy accomplishes nothing and comes at a long term cost, namely the lost assets moved out in the deal. This team with Fowler (and without the combination of NHL and futures needed to acquire him) isn't really any better now than it currently is.

Why not preserve both those current and future pieces for use in a future where the team might actually have a new top tier player, and hence a more pressing reason to make a push forward of futures into a current or near future season?

 

[Frk It]

Because some people understand what the team wants to do better than others.

In your opinion. Unless you work in the front office... these statements are not only assumptive, but also very pretentious.

Absent an improvement to their top tier, spending organizational assets to get a mid-level guy accomplishes nothing and comes at a long term cost, namely the lost assets moved out in the deal. This team with Fowler (and without the combination of NHL and futures needed to acquire him) isn't really any better now than it currently is.

That's the whole point of contention. How do we know that is true? I don't think that is necessarily true.

Detroit can, has and will continue to go to the max on top tier guys who come available, but absent that opportunity they are content to play the averages and coast along...

Right, they tend to be as conservative as humanly possible. Whenever possible. Which is what gets you to where we are right now.

 

[njx9]

For a guy they want to keep, they target them in the offseason as a FA. If they can't land that guy then, they (rightly) presume they'd have had a hard time keeping him after they traded for him.

I was all set to argue against this, but if you boil it down, what you're basically saying is that we only go after guys who are no longer wanted by their own team. I think that is actually a pretty good illustration of where this team is at, these days.

A better GM would move assets for assets. But then, a better GM would have more assets to trade and better scouting to identify opportunities in the first place.

Detroit can, has and will continue to go to the max on top tier guys who come available, but absent that opportunity they are content to play the averages and coast along... at least that's been the case in this run-up to the new building. On the far side of that, who knows?

I will argue with this: who was the last top tier guy the Wings 'went to the max' for? Suter? I don't think that's illustrative of anything.

 

[dragonballgtz]

What Gus concerns, feel free to read this article. Not saying that he shouldn't get himself a couple of goals, but generally sums up my perception & appreciation of his performance.

That article had me ROFL!!!

No, he's not the next Sidney Crosby, Pavel Datsyuk, or Henrik Zetterberg. However, he's still an exceptionally talented player in his own right. Why don't we appreciate Nyquist for what he is - a highly cerebral, playmaking forward who scores like a first liner, positively impacts shot attempts, and is cost-controlled at $4.75 million for the next two seasons?

The way he is playing right now he is not a 1st line player. He is a second line winger at this point. But dont worry people because his 5v5/p60 has improved... I mean his total point production is trending down but 5v5/p60 is better.


Now I said this before and I'll say it again, I do believe coaching is part of the issue with Nyquist. Another 40 point season should be a disappointment.

 

[ap3x]

You'd be better off delivering some arguments instead of mocking the article & my view on it. Doesn't seem like u're getting the point that the article is trying to make. It's not his fault that the PP is sucking & he's generating less points from it. It's not that u don't understand the value of his 5v5-production/60 either.

 

[dragonballgtz]

You'd be better off delivering some arguments instead of mocking the article & my view on it. Doesn't seem like u're getting the point that the article is trying to make. It's not his fault that the PP is sucking & he's generating less points from it. It's not that u don't understand the value of his 5v5-production/60 either.

It is his fault, along with any other player on the PP. If he is playing on it, and it's not producing then he is part of the problem... coaching as well

Also, in general, he needs to shoot more. He is on pace for ~150 shots 10 less than last year and 40 less during 14-15 season.

Be it himself or the coaching change that has caused his productivity to drop the last two seasons...I still believe he is capable of more.

 

[Henkka]

That article had me ROFL!!!





The way he is playing right now he is not a 1st line player. He is a second line winger at this point. But dont worry people because his 5v5/p60 has improved... I mean his total point production is trending down but 5v5/p60 is better.


Now I said this before and I'll say it again, I do believe coaching is part of the issue with Nyquist. Another 40 point season should be a disappointment.

Datsyuk retirement is the "coaching" reason. Our best playmaker did retire so this team needs another guy behind Zetterberg to make plays.

Nyquist has become more creative playmaker he naturally is and people are expecting too much goals from him.

He has gone through same evolution as Zetterberg went through from 40-goal scorer to "playmaker only" -player.

Maybe he should shoot more. Maybe his playmaking is too obvious nowadays. Create through shots... or something.