Hypothetical: Would you take Evander Kane if it meant we also get Tomas Hertl?

[Shark Finn]

What is this?

 

[DFF]

What is this?

Suicide note

 

[Darth Vladar]

Why can't it be a statement of "we don't think Evander Kane will make us a better team?" It sure hasn't made San Jose a better team, has it?

It could also mean "we think there are much better ways to become a better team."

Anyway, I see this line of thinking all the time. Teams can change no parts and have extremely different results from one season to the next. This happens in both directions. I would rather a GM make no moves than make a move for the sake of making a move if the analysis suggests that it won't actually help the team.

It's hard to say whether Kane has made SJ a better team, but they've made the playoffs in two of the four seasons he has been there (the only two times Kane has played playoff hockey in his career), losing in the Western finals to eventual champ St. Louis in 2019 (the same year Calgary finished 1st in the division only to get dummied by the Avs in the first round; it's worth noting that SJ went on to beat the Avs in the very next round)

It would make sense for a GM to stand pat if the previous year's results were even remotely successful, but that's not the case here. The Flames last year were a .500 club who allowed more goals than they scored, and no amount of analysis is going to convince me that the additions of Coleman, Zadorov, and Gudbranson make this a better team than it was a year ago.

I agree that there are a variety of ways to make a team better; that's basically the whole point of this thread. It's only natural to assume if something isn't working, a different approach must be taken, but it just seems like like a sad re-hash of the Sutter blueprint from 2012, except there is no prime Brown, Carter, Doughty, or Kopitar. I see with Kane an opportunity to obtain a star player still in his prime (perhaps even at a bargain, depending how desperate SJ is to be rid of him) who's style of play could really compliment our forward group. It's a GM's job to put together the best team of players, not the most unflawed group of characters. The only downside in trading for Kane just seems to be more personal rather than related to hockey.

 

[viper0220]

Since Tre is essentially spent to the cap and still in need of at least one more top-six forward to ice a competitive team this year, I was curious as to whether Flames fans would be willing to give Evander Kane a fresh start in Calgary if it meant acquiring Hertl as well.

Salary would obviously have to go back the other way, but with the recent acquisitions, I wonder whether Tanev might be of interest to Wilson since SJ is looking pretty thin on D.

I'm not in the camp that wants to see Mony gone, but I am curious whether a package starting with Mony + Tanev would be enough to get Wilson on the phone for Hertl + Kane, and whether Flames fans would even entertain that proposition.

Gaudreau - Lindholm - Tkachuk
Kane - Hertl - Coleman
Mangiapane - Backlund - Dube
Lucic - Richardson - Pitlick
Ritchie

Hanifin - Andersson
Valimaki - Stone
Zadorov - Gudbranson
Mackey/Kylington

I honestly wouldn't feel too bad about that team going into camp, and who's to say whether a change of scenery might do Kane some good. Think/say what you want about the guy, he can still play hockey.

EDIT: Andersson could make a better trade piece than Tanev, and they make about the same salary.

No, we are headed for a rebuild in 2-3 years, no need to waste assets.

 

[TheHudlinator]

No, we are headed for a rebuild in 2-3 years, no need to waste assets.

The way I look at it if you can get hertl + Kane for less than what you could get for Hertl at the deadline you do it. Give the team until the deadline if we look out of it trade Gaudreau and Hertl for futures and begin the rebuild. If we are rebuilding who cares if we buy out Kane or even just let him play out his contract.

 

[Groo]

Monahan has a 10 team no trade list no idea of sj is on it or not but I think the idea of hertl + Kane is smart target if we are going to keep trying to make the playoffs.

What make you think Hertl would wave for Calgary?

 

[Darth Vladar]

The way I look at it if you can get hertl + Kane for less than what you could get for Hertl at the deadline you do it. Give the team until the deadline if we look out of it trade Gaudreau and Hertl for futures and begin the rebuild. If we are rebuilding who cares if we buy out Kane or even just let him play out his contract.

I just think it's a unique situation where you have this star talent in Kane who almost has negative value despite the fact that he is one of the most consistent scorers in the league. I can't remember another instance where that's ever been the case. Bertuzzi played another decade after the Steve Moore incident, though he was never the same again. If GMs are so high on their horse that they won't forgive Kane's shortcomings regardless of how good a player he is, then it's less a hockey decision than it is a personal one. I have to wonder whether there is an agreement among GMs not to touch him, which makes me more suspicious of the league itself than Kane.

Quite a similar game to Iggy. Terrific shot, decent skater, works hard, physical and not afraid to drop 'em. I personally think he would thrive under Sutter. A player of his caliber will surely not be without a job for long, so it would be great it if Tre could pull the trigger on a deal while Kane's value is low, especially if it means SJ would have to retain salary and/or include another player to sweeten the deal.

 

[TheHudlinator]

What make you think Hertl would wave for Calgary?

Ufa next year I think he scores more points with Gaudreau and/or Tkachuk than on San Jose which pumps his value up more for free agency next summer

 

[TheHudlinator]

I just think it's a unique situation where you have this star talent in Kane who almost has negative value despite the fact that he is one of the most consistent scorers in the league. I can't remember another instance where that's ever been the case. Bertuzzi played another decade after the Steve Moore incident, though he was never the same again. If GMs are so high on their horse that they won't forgive Kane's shortcomings regardless of how good a player he is, then it's less a hockey decision than it is a personal one. I have to wonder whether there is an agreement among GMs not to touch him, which makes me more suspicious of the league itself than Kane.

Quite a similar game to Iggy. Terrific shot, decent skater, works hard, physical and not afraid to drop 'em. I personally think he would thrive under Sutter. A player of his caliber will surely not be without a job for long, so it would be great it if Tre could pull the trigger on a deal while Kane's value is low, especially if it means SJ would have to retain salary and/or include another player to sweeten the deal.

I don't like Kane off the ice but on ice he is a useful player. I wouldn't make a move for him if our core had found success together the last couple of years, but they haven't and we are in hail Mary time, if it doesn't work this year we need to rebuild so I'm fine rolling the dice on guy like Kane. Either it works out and there are no complaints or it crashes and burns and we need to rebuild anyway

 

[Darth Vladar]

I don't like Kane off the ice but on ice he is a useful player. I wouldn't make a move for him if our core had found success together the last couple of years, but they haven't and we are in hail Mary time, if it doesn't work this year we need to rebuild so I'm fine rolling the dice on guy like Kane. Either it works out and there are no complaints or it crashes and burns and we need to rebuild anyway

Exactly. What's the harm in trying if the worst case scenario is the same end result as if we'd done nothing? At least if it crashes and burns, the hockey would still be entertaining. It's not even like we'd have to give up picks or prospects for Kane alone. I think Andersson straight up gets it done, at least right now while the controversy is still warm. I'd almost rather do that and keep Mony than try for Hertl.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Tkachuk
Kane - Lindholm - Coleman
Mangi - Backlund - Dube
Lucic - Richardson - Pitlick

Hanifin - Tanev
Valimaki - Stone
Guddy - Zad
Mackey - Kylington

It's amazing how one player can alter the entire makeup of a team. No matter which way you slice it, the Flames are short a top-six forward if they are going to be competitive (at least on paper), which they need to be. Prospects like Zary, Pelletier and Coronato shouldn't have to develop in a negative culture, or with the extra pressure of being counted on as saviours. As Anglesmith already pointed out, it's entirely possible to get an completely different result out of the same exact team from one year to the next; I just don't think it's necessarily fair or wise to expect. Maybe the team we have is the team we're going with, and I'll have to eat crow when we make the playoffs, but I see a window of opportunity here with Kane being available, and the Flames to me seem like they could be a good fit for him.

 

[Darth Vladar]

Edit: double post

 

[TheHudlinator]

Exactly. What's the harm in trying if the worst case scenario is the same end result as if we'd done nothing? At least if it crashes and burns, the hockey would still be entertaining. It's not even like we'd have to give up picks or prospects for Kane alone. I think Andersson straight up gets it done, at least right now while the controversy is still warm. I'd almost rather do that and keep Mony than try for Hertl.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Tkachuk
Kane - Lindholm - Coleman
Mangi - Backlund - Dube
Lucic - Richardson - Pitlick

Hanifin - Tanev
Valimaki - Stone
Guddy - Zad
Mackey - Kylington

It's amazing how one player can alter the entire makeup of a team. No matter which way you slice it, the Flames are short a top-six forward if they are going to be competitive (at least on paper), which they need to be. Prospects like Zary, Pelletier and Coronato shouldn't have to develop with the extra pressure of being counted on as saviours. As Anglesmith already pointed out, it's entirely possible to get an completely different result out of the same exact team from one year to the next; I just don't think it's necessarily fair or wise to expect. Maybe the team we have is the team we're going with, and I'll have to eat crow when we make the playoffs, but I see a window of opportunity here with Kane being available, and the Flames to me seem like they could be a good fit for him.

Andersson for Kane is an overpayment from us imo Kane is a headache off the ice. I'd offer lucic + Kylington (since I don't think he makes the team). They get out the big cap hit 2 years early we roll the dice on Kane keeping his shit together.

 

[Darth Vladar]

Andersson for Kane is an overpayment from us imo Kane is a headache off the ice. I'd offer lucic + Kylington (since I don't think he makes the team). They get out the big cap hit 2 years early we roll the dice on Kane keeping his shit together.

The extent to which this controversy has diminished Kane's value is crazy. Bertuzzi ended a guy's career, damn near killed him, and was packaged with Bryan Allen in a deal that brought f**king Luongo to the Canucks. I mean, you take a player with the same exact skillset and numbers as Kane, locked in at a $7M cap hit for four more years, minus all the off-ice BS and it's an entirely different conversation. It would probably take Andersson PLUS Mony just to get Wilson on the phone. There must be something else we don't know about the situation (i.e. other parties involved), because whatever Kane's issues were off the ice last year did not hamper his play in the slightest, he had a terrific season. And he sure as heck didn't try to kill anybody.

 

[Darth Vladar]

Sorry, double post again. I think I hit reply instead of edit lmao my bad

 

[Darth Vladar]

Apparently some guy from The Athletic is saying the price for Hertl alone right now would be a 1st and a high-end prospect. I'm curious if Zary plus Pelletier would do it.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Apparently some guy from The Athletic is saying the price for Hertl alone right now would be a 1st and a high-end prospect. I'm curious if Zary plus Pelletier would do it.

Wouldn’t consider it unless an extension was done first.

 

[Rubi]

No. Nyet. Nein. Non.

 

[CamPopplestone]

I just think it's a unique situation where you have this star talent in Kane who almost has negative value despite the fact that he is one of the most consistent scorers in the league. I can't remember another instance where that's ever been the case. Bertuzzi played another decade after the Steve Moore incident, though he was never the same again. If GMs are so high on their horse that they won't forgive Kane's shortcomings regardless of how good a player he is, then it's less a hockey decision than it is a personal one. I have to wonder whether there is an agreement among GMs not to touch him, which makes me more suspicious of the league itself than Kane.

Quite a similar game to Iggy. Terrific shot, decent skater, works hard, physical and not afraid to drop 'em. I personally think he would thrive under Sutter. A player of his caliber will surely not be without a job for long, so it would be great it if Tre could pull the trigger on a deal while Kane's value is low, especially if it means SJ would have to retain salary and/or include another player to sweeten the deal.

His contract isn't the greatest which also hurts. But I think it's his general attitude and worry of unreliability. Considering it seems there's a gambling thing there, the bankruptcy, the rumor he was considering retiring or having his contract terminated, the accusations of his wife, his general showboating from the past on social media and such, I think it's just he's seen as a huge risk character and reliability wise. And could also be a lot of players who are wary of adding him to the locker room.

 

[Darth Vladar]

His contract isn't the greatest which also hurts. But I think it's his general attitude and worry of unreliability. Considering it seems there's a gambling thing there, the bankruptcy, the rumor he was considering retiring or having his contract terminated, the accusations of his wife, his general showboating from the past on social media and such, I think it's just he's seen as a huge risk character and reliability wise. And could also be a lot of players who are wary of adding him to the locker room.

1. I don't understand how anyone can take issue with that contract. Iginla averaged 32 goals and 68 points per 82-game season over the course of his career, and Kane averages 29 goals and 56 points per 82-game season, and his salary right now is the exact same as Iginla's was OVER A DECADE AGO. The man is still in his prime to boot, and will be the same age for the remaining years at a 7M cap hit as Iggy was when he scored 50, 35, 32, and 43 goals respectively. Again, not saying Kane is Iggy, but their playing styles AND numbers are eerily comparable. Who's to say what Kane could achieve with a fresh start and change of scenery? I think his game perfectly compliments both what Calgary already has going for them as well as what playing for Sutter entails.

2. All this gossip about his attitude, unreliability, gambling, rumors of retiring, accusations by his wife, showboating, any risk he might present, etc. are overblown to me until proven otherwise, and have nothing to do with hockey. Yeah he has a bad rep, but he suited up for every game last year, played hard, and was top-30 in scoring with .88 PPG, the same as Johnny Hockey, who was the Flames leading scorer. Kane's 22 goals were more than any other Flame scored last year.

The only reason I can think of why players would be wary of adding Kane to the locker room is because he plays as well or better than any of them IN SPITE OF his off-ice struggles, which would give players no excuse to keep screwing the damn pooch.

It could as easily be a racial thing. It's not as though people don't highlight shortcomings, flaws or worst qualities to justify why they already hate someone.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

So to be clear, your premise for this thread was not to acquire Hertl, but to get on your soapbox to promote the acquisition of Evander Kane.

1. I don't understand how anyone can take issue with that contract.

The Flames are already nearly $14 million into LWs in Gaudreau and Tkachuk. Why add another $7 million in Kane? For 4 more seasons? Where does he fit on the roster? Where does he fit into the salary cap? Longer term? Even without the off-ice circus, he's not a fit.

2. All this gossip about his attitude, unreliability, gambling, rumors of retiring, accusations by his wife, showboating, any risk he might present, etc. are overblown to me until proven otherwise, and have nothing to do with hockey.

The flies don't go where there isn't a pile of shit. There are plenty of other issues, directly related to the team that you haven't listed (the jersey shredding incident) not to mention that former teammates have allegedly come out to state they don't want the guy on their team. He's as much Sean Avery as Jarome Iginla if you really want to make comparisons.

The only reason I can think of why players would be wary of adding Kane to the locker room is because he plays as well or better than any of them IN SPITE OF his off-ice struggles, which would give players no excuse to keep screwing the damn pooch.

No, it's because he's a twat.

 

[Darth Vladar]

So to be clear, your premise for this thread was not to acquire Hertl, but to get on your soapbox to promote the acquisition of Evander Kane.

This thread evolved to whatever it is now as more people offered their perspectives. Plus, the cost to acquire Hertl might be higher than I initially thought. The hypothetical concerns seemed more to do with Kane's personality and off-ice antics than his actual game, which is how we got to wherever we are. No soapbox.

The Flames are already nearly $14 million into LWs in Gaudreau and Tkachuk. Why add another $7 million in Kane? For 4 more seasons? Where does he fit on the roster? Where does he fit into the salary cap? Longer term? Even without the off-ice circus, he's not a fit.

In the (previously unconsidered) hypothetical scenario where we acquire Kane without Hertl, one of the stipulations (due to the controversy) might be that SJ has to eat some cap, in which case, something like Ras for Kane straight-up might get it done.

Johnny - Monny - Tkachuk
Kane - Lindy - Coleman
Mangi - Backs - Dube
Lucic - Richardson - Pitlick/Ritchie/Lewis

I would be thrilled if that were the team heading into the season.

The flies don't go where there isn't a pile of shit. There are plenty of other issues, directly related to the team that you haven't listed (the jersey shredding incident) not to mention that former teammates have allegedly come out to state they don't want the guy on their team. He's as much Sean Avery as Jarome Iginla if you really want to make comparisons.

Again, not saying the guy has been a perfect angel over the course of his career, but the examples you cited here are petty compared to ending a man's career (and nearly his life) as Bertuzzi did, and trading him to FLA after the incident still got the Canucks Luongo in return.

If everyone (including the Flames) gave Bertuzzi another chance after almost killing someone, there'd be no reason for the Flames not to give a Kane a chance to see what he can accomplish with a change of scenery and a fresh start. He just turned 30 last month, and despite whatever else he had going on in his life, he still managed to stay healthy for the entire season, play extremely well, and finish top-30 in league scoring with as many goals and points as anybody on the Flames. Give credit where it's due, the guy still showed up to work and did his job.

No, it's because he's a twat.

I'm sure the league is full of twats, but how many of them average 30 goals a year? I'd take Kane for 4 more years (especially if SJ had to eat some of his cap) before I sold the farm for five years of Eichel at 10M per, ten times out of ten.

 

[TheHudlinator]

I don't think you can compare Eichel to Kane for off ice distractions. Eichel's biggest knock is what hating losing? I guess that might mean he wouldn't like it here but that's honestly a positive for a player imo.

Kane has been accused of some real scumbag actions.

 

[Darth Vladar]

I don't think you can compare Eichel to Kane for off ice distractions. Eichel's biggest knock is what hating losing? I guess that might mean he wouldn't like it here but that's honestly a positive for a player imo.

Kane has been accused of some real scumbag actions.

I personally don't care a whole lot about what either of them do off the ice, provided it isn't criminal, and as long as they come in and do the job they get paid so well to do, which is win. It shouldn't be a matter of who is the biggest off-ice distraction; players wouldn't be so distracted if they were focused on their own game. These are supposed to be professionals. My point about Kane was that he still performs at a rather high level despite whatever off-ice BS. And as I mentioned in the other thread, Eichel is less than a point-per-game player, six full seasons into the league, with zero playoff experience already making 10M per season, with injury woes to boot. The 2019 Sabres were arguably as good on paper as the Flames appear to be heading into this upcoming season, and they finished 33-39-10 with Eichel as their captain. How much better would the Flames really be to acquire Eichel for what it'd surely cost the team in the long-run, especially if there is an opportunity to give Kane another chance at a fraction of the cost? Unless there is an agreement between GMs not to touch Kane with a 10 ft. pole, I'm willing to bet that he can be had for relatively cheap. It's unique circumstances to have the chance to add a player of Kane's caliber without having to give up very much. If this was the same exact player minus the controversy, that would be one of the better contracts in the league. SJ could very well have to eat salary just to be rid of him.

 

[Fig]

IMO no. I'd want Hertl for a playoff run. I'd only touch Kane if we were rebuilding which means acquiring Hertl makes no sense.

If the rumors are true, the premise doesn't make sense. Hertl wants away from Kane. The smoke around Kane is starting to remind me of the immature Phaneuf stuff where team mates are ostracizing him for certain sleights and I have no doubt in my mind there must be some off ice stuff that's isolating him further from his team mates. We've seen the guy seemingly disliked in Winnipeg, Buffalo and SJS now. The last time I recall someone seemingly so disliked where ever he went was Avery. Even a guy like Phaneuf matured after marrying Elisha Cuthbert. Avery never seemed to mature (he claims it was a persona... but *eye roll*) and Kane seems to be on the same track.

Taking Kane to acquire Hertl is a conflict IMO. You get Hertl to go on a playoff run, but Kane doesn't really help that IMO. He's more of a guy you kinda pay for the cap hit but not really wanting him to do much of anything. That's more of a rebuild sort of contract IMO. Even if Kane can contribute on ice at this point, he's a live grenade. I wouldn't want him near the roster and risk him completely messing up the locker room culture at a key important time. He might be a good mercenary, but with his contract situation, he's not a mercenary type acquisition. He is absolutely not a player I'd want to consider in anyone's core.

 

[Volica]

May have been spoken about in this thread prior.
Isn't one of the reasons Hertl wants out is because of how scummy he thinks Kane is?