Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
They would keep losing games like last night because they can’t score.
Confirmed with Link: Hynes relieved of his duties, Nasreddine as Interim
- Thread starter NjDevsRR
- Start date
They would keep losing games like last night because they can’t score.
Combat Koala
Tough buildings never die
- Oct 29, 2014
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It's easy to blame the goaltending but you have to look at what's in front of the goaltender. The nonexistent coverage on the defensive zone and continuous brain farts below the red line would make any goaltender look like he doesn't belong even to the AHL level. I'm still very mildly skeptical about Blackwood despite him showing some strong prowess, but I just can't blame the guy and I wholeheartedly wish for him to succeed. He's still very young for a starting goaltender and some of the shots/situations he's forced to face on a nightly basis would make everyone look bad. Schneider will likely be bought out this summer (?) because there just is no place on this organisation for a goalie as highly paid and as bad as him. It's really sad because he seems like a really nice, down to earth type of person. Guess the injuries really did him in. Domingue sucks, but who do you replace him with?
Billdo
Registered User
Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
I would take a functioning power play
Goaltending makes defensemen be in the wrong place? Goaltending makes skaters make horrible decisions on outlet passes? Wow! I learned something new today!
That's bound to change, though. They've been bad, but they're not this bad offensively. So yes, they would lose some games like last night's, but not all of them.
Almost every goal is the result of something that can be termed a mistake by a skater. Hell, most shots on goal probably feature a mistake, if you want to isolate it that much - it's a fast-moving game and a game of mistakes. So you are actually right in a sense - goaltending is not the cause of these things, but it's the reason why you remember them.
The skaters are making too many mistakes. Not as many of them should be ending up in the net, because the goalies have been just awful.
The captain discussion in hockey is the most nauseating and stupid. It is utterly meaningless.
I’m sure Andy Greene who was an undrafted free agent and had to work his ass off in order to create a career and become a good defensemen as suddenly decided to mail it in.
I’m sure Andy Greene who was an undrafted free agent and had to work his ass off in order to create a career and become a good defensemen as suddenly decided to mail it in.
Rah rah leadership has a very short shelf life but watch any Drew Brees pump up video just before the game. In the abstract it’s corny. In real life every guy in that huddle is into it.
Also the narrative that if you aren’t in the room you can’t develop any reasonable opinion is flawed. I wasn’t in the bunker in Berlin in April 1945. I think I can develop a reasoned opinion about the leadership there.
MartyOwns
thank you shero
- Apr 1, 2007
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To your last point, there is a difference between judging coaching from a far and in-team player leadership. Coaching sets the strategy and system and that stuff you can judge from the outside.
A player’s leadership role is to set an example. I can’t judge that from the outside. Again I doubt a guy who was an undrafted free agent and had to earn everything he got in is career suddenly got lazy. There are times I kind of wish the NHL got rid of designated captains, because it is literally the dumbest fan discussion debate there is.
Combat Koala
Tough buildings never die
- Oct 29, 2014
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Care to explain why? Not trying to be an ass about it, just wondering why someone would say that because I feel differently about that.
Personally I wouldn't say Greene has "mailed it in", he's still a good/decent player, but that is not a reason I'd consider him a good leader which was the subject of earlier team related issues.
None of us are in the room, but when i see this team for years on end fall apart at the slightest bit of doubt you can’t tell me there isn’t a leadership problem. I’m not talking about who wears a letter I’m talking more about culture and how our organization is rooted in losing. Yes our goaltending isn’t good but it’s much deeper than that, it’s the fundamental mistakes and downright pitiful system that leads to all of it.
Step 1 was getting rid of Hynes, now we need to get rid of the rest of his garbage staff, trade off some players and just start over. The rebuild failed, and failed quite miserably. Now we start again.
Step 1 was getting rid of Hynes, now we need to get rid of the rest of his garbage staff, trade off some players and just start over. The rebuild failed, and failed quite miserably. Now we start again.
Schneider was beyond awful, but even prime Marty wouldn't have saved this team.
When you're doing so many fundamental things systematically wrong, goaltending becomes almost irrelevant. You're going to lose more often than not anyway. It's an excuse - especially in an age of parity when there are very few above average goaltenders in the league to begin with.
I’ve explained why in my post above. But basically because the NHL designated captains (which dates back to a previous era of who can have discussions with a ref), we as fans have elevated the importance of the role, what it means and what the expectations should be.
Leadership from a player standpoint should be about setting an example in terms of work ethic. It also to be a positive influence on other players. As fans from the outside we can’t know who sets and plays that role. This why the captain debate is stupid.
Almost everything people say they want to see out of captain is not a players job. It is the coaches job. If you have to have another player play the bad cop role on the team you are already f***ed.
Prime Marty would have this team in playoff contention. Primarily because the system is designed around having an above average goalie and prime Marty was that good.
That’s a fair point but don’t think there is as much of a disconnect between the public persona and what goes on in the room for most guys that we have the chance to observe over a long term. Of course there are exceptions. We also do get some insights if you look for them. I recall an interview with Nico where he talked about Greene as a captain. Nico describes Greene as kind supportive and positive. All good stuff. No rah rah no yelling just some good perspective like “there is never a bad day to be in the NHL”. That said an more intense personality can deliver a similar message but with more emphasis on the grind and compete they need to bring. I realize 95% is the players self motivating and if it isn’t part of them the leadership will only do so much - look at Zacha. On a team with two assistants with no actual captain you balance a Greene with someone who is more openly competitive and I’d expect you have your bases covered. And yes you do need guys that lead by example and share the specifics of that with the young players. Ultimately I agree with Eddy that leadership won’t make the team score more goals. Leadership will help the team’s ability to keep trying in the face of adversity which just evaporated under Hynes.
As for the captaincy I think it was developed to limit who can interact with the officials if I am remembering that right.
Combat Koala
Tough buildings never die
- Oct 29, 2014
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Oh shit, didn't even see your post above mine.
I underlined what I agree with you on, kinda. We don't, can't and shouldn't even know what happens inside the locker rooms and on the bench for more than we see. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. But surely everyone would give the C to the guy that takes some sort of leadership role in your team? Not just experience based "here's your service reward" honor?
As for what I bolded, it kind of negates what you said afterwards. The thing is that you should see the leadership on the ice without having to really think who actually has that kind of a role. That's why there are the letters, right? I see your point, but the leadership role really matters to a degree. I'd rather see a Stevens type bat shit crazy post-game interview with the lust for murder eyes than any of this woe-is-me bullshit.
TrufleShufle
Registered User
- Aug 31, 2012
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It's crazy only fans think this. But when reading articles or listening to former players speak, they always talk about how important it actually is. Some guys don't care what anyone has to say, they just stick to their game, but a lot of guys thrive or die off who they are following.
I know it's frustrating because we can't see it or put advanced stats to argue over who is better. But just because we can't ever really know the answer, doesn't mean there isn't one.
Darkauron
Registered User
Cheddabombs
Status Quo
- Mar 13, 2012
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NJDevs26
Once upon a time...
- Mar 21, 2007
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Leadership discussion is different from effort discussion. Patrik Elias gave effort but got slagged even by his coach for not being a leader. Anyone can give effort, but to be a leader you also have to be willing to call guys out when THEY don't give effort.
I think having a 'lead by example' guy who isn't viscerally intense as captain is fine IF he calls guys out behind closed doors and you have well-respected players in the room who can be more of an overt bad cop. Greene is not going to be anyone's version of a bad cop. The guy's been here ten years, you'd think by now if he chewed one butt out in the locker room it would have come out, especially post-Lou. Palmieri, Hall, Greene, Vatanen - they're all milquetoast personalities. Subban might have a little edge but he can't exactly chew anyone out playing the way he has.
The problem with the leadership isn't Greene himself, the problem is not one person in the locker room is going to hold anyone else to account for anything, including making the same amateur mistakes over and over again. If you had a dominant alpha head coach who could command respect you could get away with that perhaps but Hynes...
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