Humble Pie Requirements for Brady Tkachuk's NHL Performance

[RAFI BOMB]

For all of the critics out there who are so vocal and critical about Tkachuk, what are your humble pie requirements? What does he need to do in the NHL for you to acknowledge that you were wrong about him?

Click to read more...

 

[harrisb]

For all of the critics out there who are so vocal and critical about Tkachuk, what are your humble pie requirements? What does he need to do in the NHL for you to acknowledge that you were wrong about him?

Be a 50-60 pt guy who’s a menace to play against

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

For all of the critics out there who are so vocal and critical about Tkachuk, what are your humble pie requirements? What does he need to do in the NHL for you to acknowledge that you were wrong about him?

Be a better player than Zadina, Hughes, Boqvist, Dobson, Hayton and Wahlstrom.

 

[PatrickEaves]

For all of the critics out there who are so vocal and critical about Tkachuk, what are your humble pie requirements? What does he need to do in the NHL for you to acknowledge that you were wrong about him?

If he turns into Theo Fleury before he left Calgary.

 

[SAK11]

Well, I will likely compare him pretty closely to Zadina, so that will be a big part of the equation.

I'm confident he'll help our team but my big question mark is his offensive upside. If he consistently scores 25+ goals and is seen as a legit top line player, I'll admit I was wrong about him [I see him as more of a 2nd line guy who will score in the low 20s]. If his whole year was the same as what I saw at the World Juniors, I would've been thrilled with the pick. In that sense, there is hope that with the right center and with him finding a consistent scoring touch as he had for those 2 weeks, he could be better than my projection of him right now.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Be better than Zadina, Dobson, etc.

 

[Sun God Nika]

keep the point gap between him and Zadina to under 10.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

It'll become fairly obvious if he was the right choice. IMO Zadina/Veleno would've been better pickups in the 1st.

 

[Uchiha]

Pro Tkachuk guys on here said he’s a 60 point player.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Be a better player than Zadina, Hughes, Boqvist, Dobson, Hayton and Wahlstrom.

Can you provide some metrics that would allow you to make such an assessment? Would he need to win an NHL award? Does he need to score more goals or put up more points? Would you use some of the advanced metrics?

If he scores more game winning goals but less goals overall would that matter?

I am curious as to how you determine which player is better.

 

[Liver King]

Be a better player than Zadina, Hughes, Boqvist, Dobson, Hayton and Wahlstrom.

define better - based on your comments if he is more than a 3rd line winger you would be completely wrong

 

[Mr Hat]

Higher PPG than Zadina after two full NHL seasons. Have better production than his brother in same time frame. I'd happily eat crow then, just don't see it.

2016-17	Calgary Flames	NHL	76	13	35	48	105	14	4	0	0	0	4
2017-18	Calgary Flames	NHL	68	24	25	49	61	-1	--	--	--	--

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[aragorn]

Every draft some guys who were taken later turn out to be pretty good players & sometimes better than the guy your team picked. Mark Scheifele & Brock Boeser were taken after Ottawa picked but at the time people were happy with Ottawa's picks & these two guys turned out to be pretty damn good too. It happens every draft which allows people who were against the pick to say I told you so. Say la vie.

IMO Tkachuk was not taken as a pt producer but as a player who will make everyone else around him better, who will improve the room & help create a winning environment & winning team. He may not get 60 pts but 40 or 50 but he could help Brown to get 80 pts or anyone on his line or on the ice with him play better & bigger with his presence. He is a pro-typical team player & power-forward something Ottawa has desperately needed & IMO should help his teammates be BETTER & play HARDER especially Brown. IMO he is exactly the kind of player Brown will need on his line.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Can you provide some metrics that would allow you to make such an assessment? Would he need to win an NHL award? Does he need to score more goals or put up more points? Would you use some of the advanced metrics?

If he scores more game winning goals but less goals overall would that matter?

I am curious as to how you determine which player is better.

Be more valuable than them. Provide the same role, if Wahlstrom and Zadina are top line wingers, Tkachuk needs to be a top line winger and produce with them for example. Fairly easy to understand.

He also needs to be better than the guys who will be available in the top 10 at our pick next year. Good luck with that. Guys like Dach, Kakko and Hughes might already be better players and are nearly 2 years younger.

 

[Liver King]

Be more valuable than them. Provide the same role, if Wahlstrom and Zadina are top line wingers, Tkachuk needs to be a top line winger and produce with them for example. Fairly easy to understand.

He also needs to be better than the guys who will be available in the top 10 at our pick next year. Good luck with that. Guys like Dach, Kakko and Hughes might already be better players and are nearly 2 years younger.

you projected Tkachuk as a 3rd liner - and were very adamant about that. If he is a top 6 player in any regard you should eat the whole pie lol As, in that case, you would be wrong about him

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

you projected Tkachuk as a 3rd liner - and were very adamant about that. If he is a top 6 player in any regard you should eat the whole pie lol As, in that case, you would be wrong about him

He could be like a 2nd line guy, yeah sure. Do you think that will be a good pick at 4 and giving up a legit shot at Hughes?

 

[Liver King]

He could be like a 2nd line guy, yeah sure. Do you think that will be a good pick at 4 and giving up a legit shot at Hughes?

Well I think you have been by far the most critical poster of Tkachuk on SensHF and the question is asking to what end would Tkachuk's play prove a poster wrong.

Your standard to be proven wrong is your projection - a shitty 3rd line player Chris Neil/Lazar Bust or whatever else you have stated. Your standard is not better than every other player picked below him and the top 10 picks of 2019 lol

And I would rather have Hughes than Tkachuk if that is what youre really asking lol

 

[thinkwild]

It surprises me too how character can sometimes be used as if its a mutually exclusive term with skill. How the heck character managed to get to the point where it is denigrated as a valued trait of a hockey player is some strange kind of hockey populism. Of course we want skilled players. Of course even better when they have the character associated with overcoming adversity and succeeding with a team.

This Tkachuk / Zadina debate is a classic hockey debate. It’s decades old. There’s a roll of the dice to it for sure. If Zadina reaches his ceiling while Tkachuk languishes at his floor, then we done goofed. That's not apparently the probabilities some scouts associated with their development.

The humble pie bar for me is kind of like the MVP debate. Which player will have a more important effect on their team finding success, more specifically our team within it's identity. I suspect we have several years of this debate to come until we find out. Odds suggest its about 50-50 which develops into the better pick.

Many were willing to trade back from our 4th because the 2nd tier of picks was so large, seems like 3-11. That makes it even harder to be sure which ones will win the development challenge.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Your standard is not better than every other player picked below him and the top 10 picks of 2019 lol

Oh interesting. My stance isn't my stance, my thoughts aren't my own. Good to know. I've said all along I didn't want Tkachuk at 4 and a value him more around the 12-15 picks. I've even said in the past I had guys like Hayton above him in my ranks. His upside is really low for a top 5 pick and my preference was to give Colorado our pick or take Zadina or Dobson. I'm sure he'll have a long career and all but watching guys like Zadina light it up every night is gonna be really painful for the next 10 years.

 

[Hale The Villain]

If he ends up producing consistently in the 60-70P range, I'll admit I was wrong about his offensive potential and consider him an excellent pick at #4.

If he ends up as a 50-60P guy and other guys like Zadina, Dobson or Bouchard don't become far superior players, he'll be a fine pick at #4.

If he ends up as a 40-50P guy, which is what I project him as right now, he'll be a disappointing pick at 4th OVR.

 

[Liver King]

Oh interesting. My stance isn't my stance, my thoughts aren't my own. Good to know. I've said all along I didn't want Tkachuk at 4 and a value him more around the 12-15 picks. I've even said in the past I had guys like Hayton above him in my ranks. His upside is really low for a top 5 pick and my preference was to give Colorado our pick or take Zadina or Dobson. I'm sure he'll have a long career and all but watching guys like Zadina light it up every night is gonna be really painful for the next 10 years.

Correct, to be proven wrong about Tkachuk's success (the question) would be for him to become a top 6 player - the standard (to be proven wrong) you set based on your criticism of him as at best a 3rd liner/likely bust.

I thought we were gonna draft Zadina after MTL's pick - and id expect players picked below 4 will score more goals than Brady - but I also think Brady will be someone we are very happy to have part of our team. Even if he ends up being picked too high.

Id also expect him to not peak until later in his career as most power forwards do

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Correct, to be proven wrong about Tkachuk's success (the question) would be for him to become a top 6 player - the standard (to be proven wrong) you set based on your criticism of him as at best a 3rd liner/likely bust.

I thought we were gonna draft Zadina after MTL's pick - and id expect players picked below 4 will score more goals than Brady - but I also think Brady will be someone we are very happy to have part of our team. Even if he ends up being picked too high.

Id also expect him to not peak until later in his career as most power forwards do

Pretty easy to win an argument if you completely frame the other person's position as something different.

My argument is he's a bad pick at 4. Show me you're worthy of being selected over those other guys I like more from 2018 and 2019.

Do whatever you want, if he scores 50 points and is deemed an acceptable top 6 guy go ahead and plan your parade. I still won't be wrong. I've said in the past that's about his ceiling.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

If he ends up producing consistently in the 60-70P range, I'll admit I was wrong about his offensive potential and consider him an excellent pick at #4.

If he ends up as a 50-60P guy and other guys like Zadina, Dobson or Bouchard don't become far superior players, he'll be a fine pick at #4.

If he ends up as a 40-50P guy, which is what I project him as right now, he'll be a disappointing pick at 4th OVR.

Very reasonable. So a more offensive version of David Backes or a bigger and nastier version of Jonathan Toews. And if he someone becomes exactly like Keith Tkachuk you would be ecstatic?

 

[Hale The Villain]

Very reasonable. So a more offensive version of David Backes or a bigger and nastier version of Jonathan Toews. And if he someone becomes exactly like Keith Tkachuk you would be ecstatic?

A more offensive version of David Backes is a pretty good comparable in terms of his ceiling.

Backes has basically been a 50-60P guy for most of his career, so a more offensive version would be a 60-70P type.

I'd be ecstatic if he ended up as good as his father. Don't see it happening though.