Speculation: How would things have been different...

[MBH]

I'm glad that you can't look at anything analytically. Glad to see that hasn't changed. Mr. I was clearly going balls to the wall with the Wings and the Tigers in his waning years. They literally fired Dave Dombrowski for pushing and making "rebuilding" trades after they failed to win a World series. You really think that a guy in his 80s who dropped 209 million on Prince Fielder thinking he was a missing piece was going to be like "cool, let's just be really bad".

It doesn't excuse that Holland made a mockery of good GMing with several of his moves and the few logically thought out ones blew up in his face for other reasons, but my god, you shouldn't have to have a leaked memo from Olympia Entertainment to make it clear to you what happened in 2012-2016 with the Wings.

Mr. I already lived through the sucking and the rebuild. He was at the point in his life where he knew he was a half step in front of the reaper.

That's a narrative. There's nothing "analytic" about that narrative.
Ken Holland continues to make a mockery of "Good GMing" in Edmonton.

I'm not asking for a "leaked memo."

I'm asking for a quote. From anyone in the organization that says "Our ownership wants us to go for it."

I can give you interview after interview of Ken Holland telling us why KEN HOLLAND doesn't want to rebuild. And you just ignore that shit.

And instead pretend that everyone else has to accept your theory with zero evidence.

 

[MBH]

It should be pointed out, too, that among Yzerman's first steps in Tampa were dumping Lecavalier (buyout) and St. Louis (trade). He also hired then fired a coach in pretty short order.
In Detroit, he went right to work on a full rebuild
So I think those are at least a couple of indications that things might have been somewhat different.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

That's a narrative. There's nothing "analytic" about that narrative.
Ken Holland continues to make a mockery of "Good GMing" in Edmonton.

I'm not asking for a "leaked memo."

I'm asking for a quote. From anyone in the organization that says "Our ownership wants us to go for it."

I can give you interview after interview of Ken Holland telling us why KEN HOLLAND doesn't want to rebuild. And you just ignore that shit.

And instead pretend that everyone else has to accept your theory with zero evidence.

He had a 78 million dollar payroll with the 2002 Wings.
The Wings were 100% a cap team as long as Mr. I was around.

Ilitch was ready to pay 90M for Ryan Suter and flew around to try to acquire him. He was ready to sign Stamkos to 7/70 if Stamkos would have answered the call. He

I'm not ignoring anything. Ken Holland didn't have unilateral power to spend 50-60 million of Mr. I's money. If he's signing 7 year, 30m deals for Abdelkader, 6x5.3 for Howard, 6x5.5 for Nielsen, 5x5 for Weiss, ad infintum, those are being okayed by Mr. I. The Wings putting together a charge at Stamkos at 10M a year that ended up not working? You don't have the go-ahead for doing that with the owners money without them approving of it.

Red Wings fighting to keep playoff streak alive

Team’s 24 consecutive appearances is the longest current stretch in professional sports, but that could end this season

www.detroitnews.com

“If you know anything about hockey and you had any success along the way, you’re going to look back and say … the structure is very strong, starting from the top,” said Panthers broadcaster Denis Potvin, part of a New York Islanders dynasty that won four Stanley Cups and made the playoffs for 19 straight seasons. “Starting with strong consistent ownership, consistent management. You don’t get that everywhere.”

Said Zetterberg: “Ownership. That’s the one thing that’s been the same, you know? They just surround themselves with good people and people who have knowledge and it just trickles down. Then, obviously the players that have been here for those 24 years.”

Wings forward Justin Abdelkader was 4 years old when the Red Wings began their playoff streak.

“It always starts with ownership, ownership’s willingness and demand to win and bringing in good players,” he said. “And, obviously, they have the support system around them with the GM, and the scouts have done such a good job of drafting the players and bringing in good players.

While uncertainty looms, Red Wings' 'unbelievable' streak lives on

The Red Wings' playoff streak reached 25 years through numerous challenges and this season was no exception.

www.sportingnews.com

For those looking for the answer as to how this is possible, Bowman goes straight to the top. Mike Ilitch purchased the team in 1982, and the Red Wings haven’t stopped since.

“It’s an amazing streak, and it really speaks to the longevity of the owner,” Bowman told Sporting News. “He wanted to win. He would come in the meeting room with the players and coaches. He knows the desire to win. Even the people in the arena feel like they are part of the team.”

Multiple people aligned with the franchise and throughout hockey speak to the culture of demanding excellence and winning that Ilitch put in place. Why are you asking for some quote of "go for it" when it is you that are ignoring that literally every action Red Wings management took from 2012 until Mr. I's death in 2017 involved things that were short term fixes and not rebuilding? Holland turned on a dime and started trading guys. They went from 6 or 7 picks the five years to 10+ every year since.

Ownership clearly wanted the streak to continue. Everyone in the organization clearly wanted the streak to continue.

But apparently you need to see some dipshit mandate. Cool cool cool.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

It should be pointed out, too, that among Yzerman's first steps in Tampa were dumping Lecavalier (buyout) and St. Louis (trade). He also hired then fired a coach in pretty short order.
In Detroit, he went right to work on a full rebuild
So I think those are at least a couple of indications that things might have been somewhat different.

He was the GM in Tampa for two years before the lockout happened and he got a CBO he could use on Lecavalier who was starting to have trouble staying healthy. He was GM in Tampa for FOUR years before MSL was traded and he traded MSL solely because St. Louis was butthurt that Yzerman left him off Team Canada for the 2014 Olympics.

 

[MBH]

He was the GM in Tampa for two years before the lockout happened and he got a CBO he could use on Lecavalier who was starting to have trouble staying healthy. He was GM in Tampa for FOUR years before MSL was traded and he traded MSL solely because St. Louis was butthurt that Yzerman left him off Team Canada for the 2014 Olympics.

So? He still moved out the only thing close to icons the team had.
That tells you something about Yzerman and sacred cows.
Yzerman is clearly more aggressive and less complacent than Ken Holland. That, in itself, suggests we would have seen a difference.

 

[MBH]

He had a 78 million dollar payroll with the 2002 Wings.
The Wings were 100% a cap team as long as Mr. I was around.

Ilitch was ready to pay 90M for Ryan Suter and flew around to try to acquire him. He was ready to sign Stamkos to 7/70 if Stamkos would have answered the call. He

I'm not ignoring anything. Ken Holland didn't have unilateral power to spend 50-60 million of Mr. I's money. If he's signing 7 year, 30m deals for Abdelkader, 6x5.3 for Howard, 6x5.5 for Nielsen, 5x5 for Weiss, ad infintum, those are being okayed by Mr. I. The Wings putting together a charge at Stamkos at 10M a year that ended up not working? You don't have the go-ahead for doing that with the owners money without them approving of it.

Red Wings fighting to keep playoff streak alive

Team’s 24 consecutive appearances is the longest current stretch in professional sports, but that could end this season

www.detroitnews.com

“If you know anything about hockey and you had any success along the way, you’re going to look back and say … the structure is very strong, starting from the top,” said Panthers broadcaster Denis Potvin, part of a New York Islanders dynasty that won four Stanley Cups and made the playoffs for 19 straight seasons. “Starting with strong consistent ownership, consistent management. You don’t get that everywhere.”

Said Zetterberg: “Ownership. That’s the one thing that’s been the same, you know? They just surround themselves with good people and people who have knowledge and it just trickles down. Then, obviously the players that have been here for those 24 years.”

Wings forward Justin Abdelkader was 4 years old when the Red Wings began their playoff streak.

“It always starts with ownership, ownership’s willingness and demand to win and bringing in good players,” he said. “And, obviously, they have the support system around them with the GM, and the scouts have done such a good job of drafting the players and bringing in good players.

While uncertainty looms, Red Wings' 'unbelievable' streak lives on

The Red Wings' playoff streak reached 25 years through numerous challenges and this season was no exception.

www.sportingnews.com

For those looking for the answer as to how this is possible, Bowman goes straight to the top. Mike Ilitch purchased the team in 1982, and the Red Wings haven’t stopped since.

“It’s an amazing streak, and it really speaks to the longevity of the owner,” Bowman told Sporting News. “He wanted to win. He would come in the meeting room with the players and coaches. He knows the desire to win. Even the people in the arena feel like they are part of the team.”

Multiple people aligned with the franchise and throughout hockey speak to the culture of demanding excellence and winning that Ilitch put in place. Why are you asking for some quote of "go for it" when it is you that are ignoring that literally every action Red Wings management took from 2012 until Mr. I's death in 2017 involved things that were short term fixes and not rebuilding? Holland turned on a dime and started trading guys. They went from 6 or 7 picks the five years to 10+ every year since.

Ownership clearly wanted the streak to continue. Everyone in the organization clearly wanted the streak to continue.

But apparently you need to see some dipshit mandate. Cool cool cool.

Scotty Bowman? The guy who joined Chicago on July 31, 2008?
That's your quoted source for "The Red Wings kept making stupid moves from 2011-2016 to satisfy the Ilitches."
OK.

If you want.

Here's Ken Holland 2017

Red Wings' Ken Holland: Long-term rebuild not the way to go

GM not looking to tear apart roster, says goal is to make the playoffs next season.

www.mlive.com

"These fans want to watch playoff hockey. Nobody wants to see a rebuild. They want to see us be competitive. They want to see us have a chance to win the Stanley Cup. While we're trying to draft and develop and get better long-term, one of our short-term goals is trying to figure out how to make the team as good as it can be and hope that team can qualify for the playoffs."

2016

"I'm not into a rebuild. They take 8-10 years and that's if you want to tank it." - Ken Holland on Red Wings future.
2:08 PM · Apr 25, 2016

And we all know Ken Holland, when he decided to take a new job, he didn't go somewhere to rebuild. He went to a team with key stars already in place.

Let's f***ing believe the guy when he says it.
Ken Holland doesn't like rebuilds.
My guess is, 1) if you were his age, you wouldn't either. and 2) Maybe Kenny never had to rebuild from the ground up and isn't sure he could do it anyway.

 

[MBH]

He had a 78 million dollar payroll with the 2002 Wings.
The Wings were 100% a cap team as long as Mr. I was around.

Ilitch was ready to pay 90M for Ryan Suter and flew around to try to acquire him. He was ready to sign Stamkos to 7/70 if Stamkos would have answered the call. He

I'm not ignoring anything. Ken Holland didn't have unilateral power to spend 50-60 million of Mr. I's money. If he's signing 7 year, 30m deals for Abdelkader, 6x5.3 for Howard, 6x5.5 for Nielsen, 5x5 for Weiss, ad infintum, those are being okayed by Mr. I. The Wings putting together a charge at Stamkos at 10M a year that ended up not working? You don't have the go-ahead for doing that with the owners money without them approving of it.

Red Wings fighting to keep playoff streak alive

Team’s 24 consecutive appearances is the longest current stretch in professional sports, but that could end this season

www.detroitnews.com

“If you know anything about hockey and you had any success along the way, you’re going to look back and say … the structure is very strong, starting from the top,” said Panthers broadcaster Denis Potvin, part of a New York Islanders dynasty that won four Stanley Cups and made the playoffs for 19 straight seasons. “Starting with strong consistent ownership, consistent management. You don’t get that everywhere.”

Said Zetterberg: “Ownership. That’s the one thing that’s been the same, you know? They just surround themselves with good people and people who have knowledge and it just trickles down. Then, obviously the players that have been here for those 24 years.”

Wings forward Justin Abdelkader was 4 years old when the Red Wings began their playoff streak.

“It always starts with ownership, ownership’s willingness and demand to win and bringing in good players,” he said. “And, obviously, they have the support system around them with the GM, and the scouts have done such a good job of drafting the players and bringing in good players.

While uncertainty looms, Red Wings' 'unbelievable' streak lives on

The Red Wings' playoff streak reached 25 years through numerous challenges and this season was no exception.

www.sportingnews.com

For those looking for the answer as to how this is possible, Bowman goes straight to the top. Mike Ilitch purchased the team in 1982, and the Red Wings haven’t stopped since.

“It’s an amazing streak, and it really speaks to the longevity of the owner,” Bowman told Sporting News. “He wanted to win. He would come in the meeting room with the players and coaches. He knows the desire to win. Even the people in the arena feel like they are part of the team.”

Multiple people aligned with the franchise and throughout hockey speak to the culture of demanding excellence and winning that Ilitch put in place. Why are you asking for some quote of "go for it" when it is you that are ignoring that literally every action Red Wings management took from 2012 until Mr. I's death in 2017 involved things that were short term fixes and not rebuilding? Holland turned on a dime and started trading guys. They went from 6 or 7 picks the five years to 10+ every year since.

Ownership clearly wanted the streak to continue. Everyone in the organization clearly wanted the streak to continue.

But apparently you need to see some dipshit mandate. Cool cool cool.

Scotty Bowman? The guy who joined Chicago on July 31, 2008?
That's your quoted source for "The Red Wings kept making stupid moves from 2011-2016 to satisfy the Ilitches."
OK.

If you want.

Here's Ken Holland 2017

Red Wings' Ken Holland: Long-term rebuild not the way to go

GM not looking to tear apart roster, says goal is to make the playoffs next season.

www.mlive.com

"These fans want to watch playoff hockey. Nobody wants to see a rebuild. They want to see us be competitive. They want to see us have a chance to win the Stanley Cup. While we're trying to draft and develop and get better long-term, one of our short-term goals is trying to figure out how to make the team as good as it can be and hope that team can qualify for the playoffs."

2016

"I'm not into a rebuild. They take 8-10 years and that's if you want to tank it." - Ken Holland on Red Wings future.
2:08 PM · Apr 25, 2016

And we all know Ken Holland, when he decided to take a new job, he didn't go somewhere to rebuild. He went to a team with key stars already in place.

Let's f***ing believe the guy when he says it.
Ken Holland doesn't like rebuilds.

We seem to have these ideas that these GMs are out there trying to fool us.
They generally try to tell us as much as they can without giving the sensitive away. Yzerman and Holland are cut from similar cloths that way (though Yzerman seems to have some devilish wit from time to time.)

 

[kliq]

That's a narrative. There's nothing "analytic" about that narrative.
Ken Holland continues to make a mockery of "Good GMing" in Edmonton.

I'm not asking for a "leaked memo."

I'm asking for a quote. From anyone in the organization that says "Our ownership wants us to go for it."

I can give you interview after interview of Ken Holland telling us why KEN HOLLAND doesn't want to rebuild. And you just ignore that shit.

And instead pretend that everyone else has to accept your theory with zero evidence.

From what I remember Jimmy Devellano said it on a podcast. He said that he and Holland pitched a re-build to Illitch (I want to say 2014??) and they were shot down. I'm pretty sure @The Zetterberg Era has referenced which podcast before, honestly I don't remember.

 

[Geezer WC]

From what I remember Jimmy Devellano said it on a podcast. He said that he and Holland pitched a re-build to Illitch (I want to say 2014??) and they were shot down. I'm pretty sure @The Zetterberg Era has referenced which podcast before, honestly I don't remember.

Ok. But Holland could have walked away and easily got another GM job at the time.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

From what I remember Jimmy Devellano said it on a podcast. He said that he and Holland pitched a re-build to Illitch (I want to say 2014??) and they were shot down. I'm pretty sure @The Zetterberg Era has referenced which podcast before, honestly I don't remember.

Yeah I am not digging for it to pull it out the 10th time, especially in an argument with the person you're quoting who doesn't really listen to it when facts are presented that they don't like... Holland is gone, nobody knows what would have happened if it played out differently because it didn't happen that way. A part of this is that we need a better team, but this board is a little too obsessed about living in the past at times for me. Let's talk about Franzen vs Hossa for the billionth time and ignore factors, let's pretend he never had conversations about rebuilding. He can be against it, but that was also the company line at the time, doesn't mean they never had the conversation in fact we know a high ranking official that has said they did. Over it, believe what you want, I am exhausted with this topic at this point.

 

[sepster]

This entire thread is unsubstantiated rumor.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

This entire thread is unsubstantiated rumor.

Well duh.

The last thing I’ll say is that Ilitch and his team pretty freaking clearly set a high bar and brought in executives, players, and the like who strove for that high bar.

Even if a quote saying “no rebuild, never” does not exist, it is made very plain by how he ran this team and the other team he owned and the reactions/quotes from everyone involved with the Streak that it was highly valued.

But our resident LA Kings fan doesn’t have an interest in something unless it either agrees with his predetermined view of the world or it slaps him in the face so hard that he can’t ignore it

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

All I can say for certain is I'm glad Holland is no longer the GM of the Red Wings. It's telling that this time around they didn't give Kenny the opportunity to once again prevent Yzerman from becoming GM.

And as someone who likes watching crazy skilled hockey players, it's a bummer Holland moved on to Edmonton instead of retiring and is now wasting McDavid and Draisaitl's prime years and further tarnishing his legacy.

 

[better Red than Dead]

I doubt Abdelkader gets 5million over 8 years or whatever it was, and I doubt Dekeyser gets as big a contract as he received. I think Yzerman would have gotten a friendlier (for the team) deal. I also have to think they would have drafted better, had
More talent as opposed to drafting bigger players to get bigger, etc.

 

[kliq]

Ok. But Holland could have walked away and easily got another GM job at the time.

1) I’m pretty sure a GM has to fulfill their contract, they can’t just walk away.

2) Why are we supposed to expect a GM to walk away because his team owner has a different vision then him?

 

[ricky0034]

I agree some serious revisionism has happened here. Both turned out to be pretty terrible deals in hindsight, but at the time, they were both very positively met by the fanbase, rightfully so.

I recall both of those signings and remember leading into them both - both Weiss and Nielsen were both consider Top 3-4 Available C's their respective free agent years. Both had proven history with their prior teams (Panthers and Isles), as Top 6 C's, and both had shown some pretty good stuff. Weiss was a bit of a north/south burner who could finish and I think notched multiple 20g seasons? Nielsen was known for being a strong, two way cerebral setup man who played a really solid two way game. And when we grabbed both of them at the time, they were both basically expected to be the 50-60pt 2C, right? These weren't meant to be superstars, they were meant to stabilize our secondary scoring and help bring up Nyquist, Tater, etc.

Although I wasn't blown away by the signings, I was generally pleased that we had a fairly large hole in our lineup and Kenny did go out and grab basically the best guy he could to fill that gap, both who were at the time, pretty good players.

And I accept that Kenny was probably under a lot of pressure to "keep it going" and the free agency markets were...okay....he did what he could. Probably showed far too much loyalty to his guys and offered too much and too long would be the critique there. Really where he lost me was his total inability to develop prospects. The lifeblood of the organization throughout the 90s, ended up being the weakest part for the last 10 years. He couldn't find a way to take even what little talent we did have and develop it over time.

eh with Nielsen even the day it was signed most of us were at least concerned with the idea of signing a guy already in his 30s for 6 years

i'll admit to liking the Weiss deal and agree that people use hindsight a bit too much there, that one mostly fell apart due to injuries(and different injuries than what he was missing time with in Florida)

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

So? He still moved out the only thing close to icons the team had.
That tells you something about Yzerman and sacred cows.
Yzerman is clearly more aggressive and less complacent than Ken Holland. That, in itself, suggests we would have seen a difference.

He had a get out of jail free card on a contract he didn’t sign.

He traded away a reigning Hart winner after the Hart winner refused to play for him anymore.

Neither of those have to do with dealing away sacred cows. Lecavalier was signed to a massive contract by an owner that was not there when Stevie walked in the door. The lockout happened and Vinik was onboard with paying to get out of a terrible deal.

Those also weren’t moves of aggression. He dealt St Louis because he had to. It wasn’t a “our team has a weakness we must address” but instead “our reigning Hart winner is demanding a trade because I didn’t pick him for team Canada”.

 

[MBH]

Yeah I am not digging for it to pull it out the 10th time, especially in an argument with the person you're quoting who doesn't really listen to it when facts are presented that they don't like... Holland is gone, nobody knows what would have happened if it played out differently becuase it didn't happen that way. I a part of this is that we need a better team, but this board is a little too obsessed about living in the past at times for me. Let's talk about Franzen vs Hossa for the billionth time and ignore factors, let's pretend he never had conversations about rebuilding. He can be against it, but that was also the company line at the time, doesn't mean they never had the conversation in fact we know a high ranking official that has said they did. Over it, believe what you want, I am exhausted with this topic at this point.

All it takes is sticking to one's guns and questioning narratives for you to start with personal insults and attacks.
If you have a question with the topic, talk to OP.

Holland didn't want to rebuild. He said it every year. He explained why.
"But I'm the guy who doesn't accept facts."
Right.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Scotty Bowman? The guy who joined Chicago on July 31, 2008?
That's your quoted source for "The Red Wings kept making stupid moves from 2011-2016 to satisfy the Ilitches."
OK.

If you want.

Here's Ken Holland 2017

Red Wings' Ken Holland: Long-term rebuild not the way to go

GM not looking to tear apart roster, says goal is to make the playoffs next season.

www.mlive.com

"These fans want to watch playoff hockey. Nobody wants to see a rebuild. They want to see us be competitive. They want to see us have a chance to win the Stanley Cup. While we're trying to draft and develop and get better long-term, one of our short-term goals is trying to figure out how to make the team as good as it can be and hope that team can qualify for the playoffs."

2016

"I'm not into a rebuild. They take 8-10 years and that's if you want to tank it." - Ken Holland on Red Wings future.
2:08 PM · Apr 25, 2016

And we all know Ken Holland, when he decided to take a new job, he didn't go somewhere to rebuild. He went to a team with key stars already in place.

Let's f***ing believe the guy when he says it.
Ken Holland doesn't like rebuilds.

We seem to have these ideas that these GMs are out there trying to fool us.
They generally try to tell us as much as they can without giving the sensitive away. Yzerman and Holland are cut from similar cloths that way (though Yzerman seems to have some devilish wit from time to time.)

That's my quoted source for three decades of the team operating in a certain manner, yes. Good on you that you zeroed in on that and again avoid the context that exactly what Bowman said in the early 2000s was echoed almost verbatim by hockey minds, the Red Wings players, Holland, throughout the organization and the league 15 years later. That would be one of the reasons why you wouldn't see a direct "Don't tank" message from Ilitch is because they spent two and a half decades working completely the other way.

Also, Ilitch was on record in an in-depth interview (and evidenced by the signings he pushed for) that he was a big proponent of stars. So, any fantasy of rebuilding by dealing Datsyuk (Ilitch would not trade a star like Datsyuk for a 1st round pick or something) or Zetterberg is bunk (due to the recapture likelihood AND Ilitch not being okay with moving a star for futures). So, in this world and not some alternate universe where the owner did not subscribe to keeping stars on the roster, you're not "kickstarting a rebuild" by dealing Dats and Z.

At the same time the Wings were signing Weiss and re-signing Quincey to a raise after they struck out, Yzerman was signing guys like Filppula and Mathew Carle for around the same contracts. When he traded MSL, he traded MSL for futures and Ryan Callahan who he extended to a similarly termed, bigger money deal than Abdelkader.

Honestly, you're talking maybe 20M in flexibility for 6 roster spots that would feasibly be swappable between an Yzerman run mid 2010s Wings and the Holland-run team we had.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

All it takes is sticking to one's guns and questioning narratives for you to start with personal insults and attacks.
If you have a question with the topic, talk to OP.

Holland didn't want to rebuild. He said it every year. He explained why.
"But I'm the guy who doesn't accept facts."
Right.

Holland didn't want to rebuild. Cool.

That says not one word about whether the Ilitches prioritized the streak. If they priotized the streak, of course they'd keep Ken Holland (the guy who doesn't want to rebuild) around.

The Red Wings as a whole obviously had no intention of rebuilding by the actions that they took from 2012-2016. Then, after 2016, they started trading off players and not over-extending players.

For someone who didn't want to rebuild at any costs, Holland sure dove in headfirst in 2017. (It didn't help for that year because 2017's draft might be the worst a team has ever had)

And you'll complain about it being a narrative, but when a GM (Dombrowski) went against his wishes and made a rebuilding trade, dealing away a star for futures, he was shitcanned that offseason. We don't have quotes about what motivated Ilitch to hire and fire people because he doesn't share that type of information. Why would he? So, being that we don't have confirmation, all we have is the narrative and using logic to reason out the moves they make.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Well duh.

The last thing I’ll say is that Ilitch and his team pretty freaking clearly set a high bar and brought in executives, players, and the like who strove for that high bar.

Even if a quote saying “no rebuild, never” does not exist, it is made very plain by how he ran this team and the other team he owned and the reactions/quotes from everyone involved with the Streak that it was highly valued.

But our resident LA Kings fan doesn’t have an interest in something unless it either agrees with his predetermined view of the world or it slaps him in the face so hard that he can’t ignore it

After 2008 a lot of those guys started to jump ship.

There was a major brain drain in Detroit after the cup. Bowman left to consult for Chicago. Yzerman left for Tampa Bay. Mclellan and Mclean left as assistants to coach their own teams to varying degrees of success. Jim Nil and Joe McDonnel left for Dallas. We're fortunate that Hakan Andersson didn't leave.

In that time frame Detroit promoted Ryan Martin and hired Tyler Wright and had a revolving door of assistant coaches that were middling to poor. Detroit was also one of the very last teams in the league to have a dedicated analyst. Not replacing the solid leadership team at the top made the rebuild that much more difficult.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

After 2008 a lot of those guys started to jump ship.

There was a major brain drain in Detroit after the cup. Bowman left to consult for Chicago. Yzerman left for Tampa Bay. Mclellan and Mclean left as assistants to coach their own teams to varying degrees of success. Jim Nil and Joe McDonnel left for Dallas. We're fortunate that Hakan Andersson didn't leave.

In that time frame Detroit promoted Ryan Martin and hired Tyler Wright and had a revolving door of assistant coaches that were middling to poor. Detroit was also one of the very last teams in the league to have a dedicated analyst. Not replacing the solid leadership team at the top made the rebuild that much more difficult.

It's more that the capability to maintain that high standard left, because as you say, the brain drain was massive. Hell, I would even say the Wings probably lost to San Jose those two years in a row because McLellan landed there. He didn't necessarily outcoach Babcock, but knew how Babcock would normally respond to things so Babcock didn't have a huge advantage either.

But, the drive to be the best in the league was still there. The culture of "not on my watch" was still there as evidenced by how guys like Z talked.

 

[MBH]

Holland didn't want to rebuild. Cool.

That says not one word about whether the Ilitches prioritized the streak. If they priotized the streak, of course they'd keep Ken Holland (the guy who doesn't want to rebuild) around.

The Red Wings as a whole obviously had no intention of rebuilding by the actions that they took from 2012-2016. Then, after 2016, they started trading off players and not over-extending players.

For someone who didn't want to rebuild at any costs, Holland sure dove in headfirst in 2017. (It didn't help for that year because 2017's draft might be the worst a team has ever had)

And you'll complain about it being a narrative, but when a GM (Dombrowski) went against his wishes and made a rebuilding trade, dealing away a star for futures, he was shitcanned that offseason. We don't have quotes about what motivated Ilitch to hire and fire people because he doesn't share that type of information. Why would he? So, being that we don't have confirmation, all we have is the narrative and using logic to reason out the moves they make.

Bro.
I have my idea. Backed up with facts. With first-person quotes.

2017? You mean when the team was a bottom 10 team in the league?

Holland didn't want to rebuild. Cool.

That says not one word about whether the Ilitches prioritized the streak. If they priotized the streak, of course they'd keep Ken Holland (the guy who doesn't want to rebuild) around.

The Red Wings as a whole obviously had no intention of rebuilding by the actions that they took from 2012-2016. Then, after 2016, they started trading off players and not over-extending players.

For someone who didn't want to rebuild at any costs, Holland sure dove in headfirst in 2017. (It didn't help for that year because 2017's draft might be the worst a team has ever had)

And you'll complain about it being a narrative, but when a GM (Dombrowski) went against his wishes and made a rebuilding trade, dealing away a star for futures, he was shitcanned that offseason. We don't have quotes about what motivated Ilitch to hire and fire people because he doesn't share that type of information. Why would he? So, being that we don't have confirmation, all we have is the narrative and using logic to reason out the moves they make.

Even your narrative ignores the fact that Ilitch wanted to be a Detroit Tiger. That the Tigers were his first love. That winning his first World Series in his later years would have been far more important to him personally than winning the 5th cup.

 

[Frk It]

They literally fired Dave Dombrowski for pushing and making "rebuilding" trades after they failed to win a World series. You really think that a guy in his 80s who dropped 209 million on Prince Fielder thinking he was a missing piece was going to be like "cool, let's just be really bad".

Look at a list of #1 overall picks in the MLB and then look at a list of #1 overall picks in the NHL.

You should not view team-building the same way between those 2 sports.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Look at a list of #1 overall picks in the MLB and then look at a list of #1 overall picks in the NHL.

You should not view team-building the same way between those 2 sports.

I'm not looking at team-building as being the same. I'm saying that the owner fired a GM for making a rebuilding type move when they still had a playoff-eligible roster, even if it was the right move to do so.

Bro.
I have my idea. Backed up with facts. With first-person quotes.

2017? You mean when the team was a bottom 10 team in the league?

Even your narrative ignores the fact that Ilitch wanted to be a Detroit Tiger. That the Tigers were his first love. That winning his first World Series in his later years would have been far more important to him personally than winning the 5th cup.

Your quotes say that Holland personally didn't want to rebuild. Neither did Yzerman. He joined the Lightning in rebuild mode (as evidenced by getting Stamkos and Hedman the two years before he made it there). He joined the Red Wings in rebuild mode.

I don't understand what your facts are supposed to represent. It's evident that Ken Holland personally did not want to rebuild... and yet after 2016 when they were bottom 10 and were out by the TDL, he dove in super hard. you know what else happened around that time? Mr. I passed.

Ilitch always wanted stars on his teams. He was quoted as much in a 2017 interview. He called out Datsyuk and Zetterberg as guys that made his team something people wanted to see. Hell, even going back to the mid 90s, he gave Bowman a smackdown for trying to trade Stevie which paved the way for Holland to take over as GM.

But fine, you're going to be obstinate and demand to see a receipt on something that the ownership never would have said publicly because as you say the focus publicly was all on the Tigers but was clearly evident in the way that every single person attached to the team for the past 30+ years ever talked about. The Red Wings were a winning franchise. They wanted to keep pushing to win. They kept making "win-now" moves or buying at the TDL every single year until it became painfully clear they weren't going to make it.. and yet ownership kept the GM around until the family's son/brother by another mother was available to get out of his contract in Tampa.

Fine, whatever, you win. Holland was just a jackass who kept banging his head against a wall because he didn't want to rebuild and Yzerman would have taken over in 2010 and dealt away all of our old pieces and we would have won 3 Cups. It is evident in all but a sworn statement that ownership wanted the Wings to keep trying to win. Can I prove with a sworn statement or a publicly shared quote that it was make the playoffs or else? No, because with the Wings, making the playoffs was the expectation. It wouldn't have made any sense when the streak was still going to say anything other than "go try and win". They didn't miss the playoffs until Mr. I had already passed. So you're asking for a quote of something that wouldn't need to be said, because as my quotes have laid out, the Red Wings for 30 years never had anything on their minds but making the playoffs and making playoff runs.