Speculation: How would things have been different...

[MBH]

I'm not looking at team-building as being the same. I'm saying that the owner fired a GM for making a rebuilding type move when they still had a playoff-eligible roster, even if it was the right move to do so.



Your quotes say that Holland personally didn't want to rebuild. Neither did Yzerman. He joined the Lightning in rebuild mode (as evidenced by getting Stamkos and Hedman the two years before he made it there). He joined the Red Wings in rebuild mode.

I don't understand what your facts are supposed to represent. It's evident that Ken Holland personally did not want to rebuild... and yet after 2016 when they were bottom 10 and were out by the TDL, he dove in super hard. you know what else happened around that time? Mr. I passed.

Ilitch always wanted stars on his teams. He was quoted as much in a 2017 interview. He called out Datsyuk and Zetterberg as guys that made his team something people wanted to see. Hell, even going back to the mid 90s, he gave Bowman a smackdown for trying to trade Stevie which paved the way for Holland to take over as GM.

But fine, you're going to be obstinate and demand to see a receipt on something that the ownership never would have said publicly because as you say the focus publicly was all on the Tigers but was clearly evident in the way that every single person attached to the team for the past 30+ years ever talked about. The Red Wings were a winning franchise. They wanted to keep pushing to win. They kept making "win-now" moves or buying at the TDL every single year until it became painfully clear they weren't going to make it.. and yet ownership kept the GM around until the family's son/brother by another mother was available to get out of his contract in Tampa.

Fine, whatever, you win. Holland was just a jackass who kept banging his head against a wall because he didn't want to rebuild and Yzerman would have taken over in 2010 and dealt away all of our old pieces and we would have won 3 Cups. It is evident in all but a sworn statement that ownership wanted the Wings to keep trying to win. Can I prove with a sworn statement or a publicly shared quote that it was make the playoffs or else? No, because with the Wings, making the playoffs was the expectation. It wouldn't have made any sense when the streak was still going to say anything other than "go try and win". They didn't miss the playoffs until Mr. I had already passed. So you're asking for a quote of something that wouldn't need to be said, because as my quotes have laid out, the Red Wings for 30 years never had anything on their minds but making the playoffs and making playoff runs.

Man, Ken Holland accepted the rebuild ONLY when the Wings didn't make the playoffs. Stop with the Ilitch nonsense.
Even after Blashill's first year, Datsyuk's last, he was trying to be a playoff guy.
Trading down to move Datsyuk's salary was a playoff-team move.

You can blame the idiotic Nielsen contract, the stupid contracts to Ericsson and Helm and Abdelkader on Ilitch.
But they were simply piss-poor moves by a GM afraid to lose and who'd long since lost his winning touch.
Legwand.
Cole.
Zidlicky.
Quincey.
Not to mention all the army of useless UFA signings that blocked kids from taking the next step.

Honestly, I wouldn't say Holland really got on board the rebuild train until 2017-18 - when he traded Tatar. What did he give up in 2016-17 as the team fell to the bottom 10? Vanek?

 

[GMR]

We draft Vasilevskiy instead of trading Quincey for that pick? Likely not as Jimmy Howard still looked "average" enough back then to be retained.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

Thing is...I don't remember a lot of griping about the Weiss deal. Until Weiss got hurt. There wasn't a lot of serious griping about the Nielsen deal when it was signed or for the first three years of it. When Weiss was signed, we had just lost Flip after bowing out in round two the previous year. If we don't want to break up Z&D we needed to fill that 2C spot. When we signed Nielsen we just saw Datsyuk slink out the door after being forced to sort of play out two of the three years he signed for, Zetterberg hit a massive wall after forty games and there were legit questions he would continue to be an effective center going forward, and Larkin was coming off a year playing Z's wing. We were looking at Helm and Glendening being the only dependable centers on the roster going into the next season.

The signings didn't work out as we had hoped, clearly, but I don't think it's entirely right to look back and say they didn't make sense or were as bad at the time as some want to make them out to be.

I always thought Nielsen's deal was a year or two too long, but I liked the move otherwise, and thought meh maybe his play style ages well and he can be a 4th line/PKer at the end, but he wasn't. I liked the Weiss signing initially too. He was more of an injury bust though where as Nielsen was just shot out by year 4 of 6.

 

[kliq]

Holland didn't want to rebuild. Cool.

That says not one word about whether the Ilitches prioritized the streak. If they priotized the streak, of course they'd keep Ken Holland (the guy who doesn't want to rebuild) around.

The Red Wings as a whole obviously had no intention of rebuilding by the actions that they took from 2012-2016. Then, after 2016, they started trading off players and not over-extending players.

For someone who didn't want to rebuild at any costs, Holland sure dove in headfirst in 2017. (It didn't help for that year because 2017's draft might be the worst a team has ever had)

And you'll complain about it being a narrative, but when a GM (Dombrowski) went against his wishes and made a rebuilding trade, dealing away a star for futures, he was shitcanned that offseason. We don't have quotes about what motivated Ilitch to hire and fire people because he doesn't share that type of information. Why would he? So, being that we don't have confirmation, all we have is the narrative and using logic to reason out the moves they make.

In what world does an owner give a GM a directive, and then the GM publicly say they disagree with that directive? Regardless of what Holland actually thought or felt, of course he was going to say that (not implying you thing this, i'm agreeing with your overall point).

 

[kliq]

We draft Vasilevskiy instead of trading Quincey for that pick? Likely not as Jimmy Howard still looked "average" enough back then to be retained.

Zero chance we take a goalie. If we dont make that trade, we likely draft Olli Maatta.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Zero chance we take a goalie. If we dont make that trade, we likely draft Olli Maatta.

...Who is still better than Quincey ever was for Detroit.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

In what world does an owner give a GM a directive, and then the GM publicly say they disagree with that directive? Regardless of what Holland actually thought or felt, of course he was going to say that (not implying you thing this, i'm agreeing with your overall point).

That's pretty much what got John Davidson fired in light of the Tom Wilson incident a year ago.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

In what world does an owner give a GM a directive, and then the GM publicly say they disagree with that directive? Regardless of what Holland actually thought or felt, of course he was going to say that (not implying you thing this, i'm agreeing with your overall point).

Yep. I said that only to highlight that Holland’s willingness to rebuild or not was not really pertinent. If the Ilitches wanted a rebuild, Wings were gonna rebuild. If they didn’t, they weren’t.

Do I think Mr. I was hovering over Holland with a sharp stick to stab him if he went against his wishes? No, of course not. But I see nothing that would have changed the directive from ownership that existed for three decades of always try for the playoffs.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

We draft Vasilevskiy instead of trading Quincey for that pick? Likely not as Jimmy Howard still looked "average" enough back then to be retained.

No, in 2012 when that trade was made, Howard looked great. At the time of his extension in 2013, he was coming off of three years out of four with a .920 or higher sv%. Howard was a legitimately good starter when he got that extension. Now, he kept getting hurt and stuck in an untenable goalie battle with Mrazek after that until he completely fell apart. There is not a prayer in the world we take Vasilevskiy with that pick with Howard at the level he was at and Petr Mrazek in the system.

 

[kliq]

...Who is still better than Quincey ever was for Detroit.

Oh I never said it was a good trade lol. I'm just saying they never would have taken Val.

 

[Retire91]

Given that we are rewriting history and it was Yzerman that took Vasilevskiy I would say there is a very strong chance he drafts him. At any rate we ensure the KFQ saga never happens and even if we draft Matta it still works out better. Gosh what a farce that was. The Quincey trade might have been the single most affirming point that the end had begun. And then just a few months after that here comes Mike Commodore.

 

[MBH]

From what I remember Jimmy Devellano said it on a podcast. He said that he and Holland pitched a re-build to Illitch (I want to say 2014??) and they were shot down. I'm pretty sure @The Zetterberg Era has referenced which podcast before, honestly I don't remember.

I don't think so. I think that';s Bullshit. Revisionism.

 

[kliq]

I don't think so. I think that';s Bullshit. Revisionism.

You think JD is lying? Or that fans that heard the podcast are lying?

 

[MBH]

You think JD is lying? Or that fans that heard the podcast are lying?

Yeah. I think fans are making shit up after the fact, or taking something small and embellishing it to fit a narrative.

Ken Holland had the implicit trust of Ilitch. If Ken Holland believed a rebuild was required for the good of the franchise, I'm pretty sure he could have sold his bosses on it.
But Ken Holland clearly didn't believe a rebuild was required.
By the time he understood, Chris Ilitch decided, mercifully, to kick Holland upstairs and make room for Yzerman.

 

[kliq]

Yeah. I think fans are making shit up after the fact, or taking something small and embellishing it to fit a narrative.

Ken Holland had the implicit trust of Ilitch. If Ken Holland believed a rebuild was required for the good of the franchise, I'm pretty sure he could have sold his bosses on it.
But Ken Holland clearly didn't believe a rebuild was required.
By the time he understood, Chris Ilitch decided, mercifully, to kick Holland upstairs and make room for Yzerman.

So if someone posts the clip and it’s clear as day, will you drop your narrative and acknowledge it’s true? Or will you say JD is just lying?

 

[MBH]

So if someone posts the clip and it’s clear as day, will you drop your narrative and acknowledge it’s true? Or will you say JD is just lying?

Absolutely. Clear as day might be the source of disagreement, I imagine.

 

[kliq]

Absolutely. Clear as day might be the source of disagreement, I imagine.

I don’t think so, if JD says “Ken Holland and I pitched a re-build to Mr. I after the Boston series, and Mr. I turned the idea done”, there is no room for debate. It’s been a while, but I’ll see if I can find it.

 

[MBH]

I don’t think so, if JD says “Ken Holland and I pitched a re-build to Mr. I after the Boston series, and Mr. I turned the idea done”, there is no room for debate. It’s been a while, but I’ll see if I can find it.

I did google searches last night... by page 2, it was all weirdo websites.