How much did Gretzky benefit from expansion teams?

[WingsFan95]

I think looking at poor teams takes extensive time and is somewhat subjective but expansion teams are expansion teams (Vegas notwithstanding).

During Gretzky's career he had the following teams come in:

79-Jets, Nords, Whalers
91-Sharks
92-Senators, Lightning
93-Ducks, Panthers
98-Predators

The Predators were one season and Gretz only faced them twice but did get his highest single game point total and tied for 2nd highest in his other meeting for a total of 8 points from his 62 season total in 70 games.

Now with the Jets/Nords/Whalers I realize they weren't traditional expansion teams but they all did poorly with the Jets tied for worst with the Rockies and Nords 2nd behind them. Whalers were tied for 13th as the best of the bunch while the Oilers themselves were the lowest playoff team getting swept by the Flyers.

Now there's no game-log for Gretz in 79-80 but the Oilers in 4 games against the Jets actually went 1-1-2 with 17 goals for and 16 against. I pulled up those 4 outings to see how Wayne did. I got 0-1-3-0 for goals, no way to get assist totals.

I know I've seen topics displaying Gretzky's totals against winning and losing teams, with him getting more points off more games against losers but the NHL was such that there was often more losing teams than winning. This is why expansion teams in particular interest me.

Click to read more...

 

[streitz]

I think he had more points against the leafs or canucks then all those expansion teams combined so I'd assume it was fairly minimal.


Also other superstars benefited at the time aswell.

 

[Howie Hodge]

The only top 50 scoring player we could argue did not benefit enormously from expansion is perhaps Gordie Howe, who played 21 of his 26 NHL seasons pre expansion, prior to the 1967 - 68 season.

But Gordie still scored around 350 of his 1850 career points post expansion.

1500 points during pre expansion. Damn impressive - especially in this context.

Still, this is a pretty interesting thread from Wingsfan, and we could break it down several ways..

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I look at it this way.

Did his totals benefit from expansion? of course

Would he still be considered the GOAT if he scored say 20 less points per season in his prime? also a yes


The only real thing I can see if doing is getting more people onto the Orr side of the Gretzky/Orr debate

 

[Michael Farkas]

He benefitted the most from how flimsy the league was from when he entered it to around the mid-1980s...

 

[Spirit of 67]

It's really hard to say.

He dominated all teams back then. Not just expansion ones.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

It's really hard to say.

He dominated all teams back then. Not just expansion ones.

from 83 to 88 (his regular season peak scoring) he scored 216 pts in 103 games in the playoffs (2.10 ppg). There's no expansion team inflation there

 

[Spirit of 67]

from 83 to 88 (his regular season peak scoring) he scored 216 pts in 103 games in the playoffs (2.10 ppg). There's no expansion team inflation there

I don't know if it's people who never saw him play can't wrap their heads around how dominant he was or if it's people who want their current heroes to be the GOAT's are trying to denigrate him.

But as I've said in other Gretzky threads, "he was the best ever. Case closed." (you can argue Orr if you like)

 

[The Macho King]

Orr benefited a hell of a lot more than Gretzky.

 

[Thenameless]

Good reading. Another pseudo-stat I remember is that Gretzky also tended to do well against marquee goalies (it would be mentioned by TV announcers when he was going up against guys like Liut and Roy in the 80's). And it's well known that he'd always rise to the occasion against Lemieux, better team or not. Even if we wanted to take away a few hundred points for weak teams (Canucks weren't really an expansion team by the time he came into the league, but he destroyed them), he still ends up on top by a mile.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't know if it's people who never saw him play can't wrap their heads around how dominant he was or if it's people who want their current heroes to be the GOAT's are trying to denigrate him.

But as I've said in other Gretzky threads, "he was the best ever. Case closed." (you can argue Orr if you like)

I've been through this before a long time ago and don't remember the details of my analysis but I came up with Orr ahead of Gretzky. I took only enough years from the start of 99's career so that the number of games matched Orr (to not include 99's decline). IIRC what tilted the scales in favour of Orr was that he put up his points in an era where there were significantly less goals scored, if it wasn't for that they would have been about even.

Orr benefited a hell of a lot more than Gretzky.

How so?

 

[The Macho King]

I've been through this before a long time ago and don't remember the details of my analysis but I came up with Orr ahead of Gretzky. I took only enough years from the start of 99's career so that the number of games matched Orr (to not include 99's decline). IIRC what tilted the scales in favour of Orr was that he put up his points in an era where there were significantly less goals scored, if it wasn't for that they would have been about even.



How so?

League expanded from 6 teams to 18 teams during his peak. He was able to beat up on a lot of shit teams to inflate some point totals.

Not taking anything away from Orr - he's my #2 all-time, but rapid expansion + WHA + lack of European/Russians in the league meant that the NHL was really diluted in talent.

 

[Spirit of 67]

League expanded from 6 teams to 18 teams during his peak. He was able to beat up on a lot of **** teams to inflate some point totals.

Not taking anything away from Orr - he's my #2 all-time, but rapid expansion + WHA + lack of European/Russians in the league meant that the NHL was really diluted in talent.

It's a little before my time so I can't attest first hand but you make a pretty solid argument.

 

[Gary Nylund]

League expanded from 6 teams to 18 teams during his peak. He was able to beat up on a lot of **** teams to inflate some point totals.

Not taking anything away from Orr - he's my #2 all-time, but rapid expansion + WHA + lack of European/Russians in the league meant that the NHL was really diluted in talent.

Yeah that seems to be a valid point. When I was debating this at the time (about 10 years ago) this didn't occur to either one of us. I wonder just how much of a factor this was as it was still a low scoring era compared to when Gretzky played but I agree it would have been somewhat of a factor for sure.

No big deal either way, the were both amazing players and it's hard to compare them as they played different positions in different eras etc.

 

[WingsFan95]

I can't shake the notion there were more crap teams until the Cap than not. One thing the Cap did was raise the floor. Some seasons in the 80s you had a third to a half of teams with seemingly no defense.

 

[Spirit of 67]

Yeah that seems to be a valid point. When I was debating this at the time (about 10 years ago) this didn't occur to either one of us. I wonder just how much of a factor this was as it was still a low scoring era compared to when Gretzky played but I agree it would have been somewhat of a factor for sure.

No big deal either way, the were both amazing players and it's hard to compare them as they played different positions in different eras etc.

Scoring could be down because there weren't enough scorers to go around.

 

[koyvoo]

He benefited from it to the same degree as did his contemporaries. He was still beating them in scoring by seasons end by 75+ pts.

 

[Terry Yake]

it wouldn't have been just gretzky that benefited. others stars could have as well

i think he benefited more from crappy goalies

 

[McGuillicuddy]

This is a bit of a silly question. Pretty much every star player from 1967 onward has had expansion teams to play against at one some point in their career. It's particularly rich to speculate that having the Jets/Whalers/Nordiques come into the league might have inflated 99s stats when he was on an expansion team himself!

 

[authentic]

League expanded from 6 teams to 18 teams during his peak. He was able to beat up on a lot of **** teams to inflate some point totals.

Not taking anything away from Orr - he's my #2 all-time, but rapid expansion + WHA + lack of European/Russians in the league meant that the NHL was really diluted in talent.

True, although Orr had his best season before the WHA and wasn't 100% pretty early into his career from his knee injuries. I think there is a good argument to be made that per game Orr was the best overall player in history for his time.

 

[authentic]

This is a bit of a silly question. Pretty much every star player from 1967 onward has had expansion teams to play against at one some point in their career. It's particularly rich to speculate that having the Jets/Whalers/Nordiques come into the league might have inflated 99s stats when he was on an expansion team himself!

Lol, a dynasty expansion team. Either way though, he was just that much better than everyone until Lemieux broke out.

 

[The Macho King]

True, although Orr had his best season before the WHA and wasn't 100% pretty early into his career from his knee injuries. I think there is a good argument to be made that per game Orr was the best overall player in history for his time.

And I don't think it's an absurd argument. The league from expansion until probably around the mid-80s when Euros were there in enough numbers and talent really started stabilizing was very top-heavy. I don't think it's a coincidence that you basically have three dynasties winning 14 of 15 Cups during that time.

The top players were still the top players though. Orr was still transcendent, as was Wayne. The league being thin still doesn't take away from the level they just dominated their competition. Just commenting on the status of the league as a whole - not denigrating the two players I hold in highest regard in league history.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

He would not have been in the NHL if the expansion Oilers and Kings were not NHL teams.

 

[authentic]

And I don't think it's an absurd argument. The league from expansion until probably around the mid-80s when Euros were there in enough numbers and talent really started stabilizing was very top-heavy. I don't think it's a coincidence that you basically have three dynasties winning 14 of 15 Cups during that time.

The top players were still the top players though. Orr was still transcendent, as was Wayne. The league being thin still doesn't take away from the level they just dominated their competition. Just commenting on the status of the league as a whole - not denigrating the two players I hold in highest regard in league history.

This to me is why Lemieux is the real GOAT in terms of talent. Once the league got amazing all around he dominated in a way I couldn't imagine the other two doing any better considering the competition. I mean from 1987 on it was apparent who the better player was and I don't believe Gretzky really declined until the Suter hit in 1991. Just my opinion.

 

[The Macho King]

This to me is why Lemieux is the real GOAT in terms of talent. Once the league got amazing all around he dominated in a way I couldn't imagine the other two doing any better considering the competition. I mean from 1987 on it was apparent who the better player was and I don't believe Gretzky really declined until the Suter hit in 1991. Just my opinion.

You'd be wrong, but that's fine.