How much did Gretzky benefit from expansion teams?
- Thread starter WingsFan95
- Start date
Weird then how once Gretzky left Edmonton a 23 year old Lemieux had 35 more goals and the same amount of assists as a 27/28 year old Gretzky in 2 less games. The point is, competition matters and Lemieux was simply a more skilled hockey player who hit his peak after the diluted period of the NHL while also dealing with a ton of injuries. It's not exactly an outrageous argument to make.
Wayne Gretzky could score 215 points on a team with the least powerplays in the league. Mario Lemieux never had the skill to do that.
He had the skill to be an elite goal scorer on NHL caliber goalies by todays standards while still being as good of a playmaker as Gretzky, Age doesn't matter much when you never had the physical skillset to dominate modern defenses and goaltending to that extent to begin with. Gretzky would've been hard pressed to approach the domination Lemieux displayed from 1993 onwards whether he was 23 or 33.
K Fleur
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Hockey reference tracks split stats from 87-88 to present. Here are Gretzy's stats against the expansion tems of that time:
San Jose Sharks- 32 games played, 12 goals, 39 assists, 51 points, 1.59ppg
Ottawa Senators- 17 games played, 3 goals, 25 assists, 28 points, 1.65ppg
Tampa Bay Lightning- 20 games played, 5 goals, 19 assists, 24 points, 1.2ppg
Anaheim Ducks- 23 games played, 5 goals, 25 assists, 30 points, 1.3ppg
Florida Panthers- 20 games played, 5 goals, 12 assists, 17 points, .85ppg
Nashville Predators- 2 games played, 1 goal, 7 assists, 8 points, 4.0ppg
Overall totals against these teams- 114 games played, 31 goals, 127 assists, 158 points, 1.39ppg
These totals represent 7.6% of Gretzky's career games played, 3.5% of his career goals scored, 6.5% of his career assists, and 5.5% of his career points scored.
San Jose Sharks- 32 games played, 12 goals, 39 assists, 51 points, 1.59ppg
Ottawa Senators- 17 games played, 3 goals, 25 assists, 28 points, 1.65ppg
Tampa Bay Lightning- 20 games played, 5 goals, 19 assists, 24 points, 1.2ppg
Anaheim Ducks- 23 games played, 5 goals, 25 assists, 30 points, 1.3ppg
Florida Panthers- 20 games played, 5 goals, 12 assists, 17 points, .85ppg
Nashville Predators- 2 games played, 1 goal, 7 assists, 8 points, 4.0ppg
Overall totals against these teams- 114 games played, 31 goals, 127 assists, 158 points, 1.39ppg
These totals represent 7.6% of Gretzky's career games played, 3.5% of his career goals scored, 6.5% of his career assists, and 5.5% of his career points scored.
MadLuke
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At first glance every other stars that played in the same time that played against them on a good team I would imagine benefited has much (or is there an hypothesis that is style of play, ultra competitive always the foot on the pedal mentality made him benefit it more from them than other nhler, that is possible and imagine could be validated if we had early to mid 80s game log)
It is possible, but is playoff track record and best on best track tournament track record do show that even if he benefited he would have been the best without it. The guy could score 14 points in a series against an All star Calgary team during the playoff hockey or do well against a soviet ultra high skill team.
It is possible, but is playoff track record and best on best track tournament track record do show that even if he benefited he would have been the best without it. The guy could score 14 points in a series against an All star Calgary team during the playoff hockey or do well against a soviet ultra high skill team.
Asheville
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Imagine Gretzky scoring 69 goals in 1996 in 70 games while still putting up 92 assists? Yeah, I can't either. 40-90 would've been possible for younger Gretzky but who are we kidding here he was in no way an elite goal scorer against good defensive systems and big butterfly goalies.
Asheville
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Keep operating in your fantasy land of what-ifs. Where's it got you? Or Lemieux?
How about you focus on the fact that your boy, for all his skillllz, was too frail to play entire seasons (when he chose to play) and was so much of a prima Donna that he skipped international events and entire NHL seasons.
I'll take the guy who parlayed superior IQ, skill, health and drive into, among many other things, the better playoff performer at every age.
Well it got him 2 cups 2 conn smythes and 6 ross trophies along with whatever other awards.
That being said I don't think Gretzky would have a problem hitting 92 assists in 1996 with a decent team in his prime, people saying otherwise are coocoo or out to lunch.
MadLuke
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Old past injury/prime Gretzky has 92 assists in 93-94 and 72 assist in 96-97 on a team with 133 less powerplays than the 95-96 Penguins, it is really easy to imagine pre 1991 Gretzky putting 92+ assists with Jagr/Francis/Zubov/Nedved/Sandstrom/Naslund and company on that 95-96 Penguins team in 70 games.
The Panther
Registered User
I'll run the stats later. But...er, are we all aware that from when he entered the NHL in 1979 to the end of his prime in 1991, no new NHL team entered the League?
There's also the fact that Gretzky himself entered the NHL on a badly-treated expansion team.
The more relevant question might be: How would Bourque / Lidstrom (insert whomever) have done if they'd entered the League on a crappy expansion team?
There's also the fact that Gretzky himself entered the NHL on a badly-treated expansion team.
The more relevant question might be: How would Bourque / Lidstrom (insert whomever) have done if they'd entered the League on a crappy expansion team?
Okay, but it's unlikely he comes close to Lemieux in goal scoring I think. It's all speculation, but I really Lemieux is the best offensive talent of all time.
Cursed Lemon
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MadLuke
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It is hard speculation, would is super precise slap shot has good has a weapon in 95-96 ?
He could still score hattricks in the playoff with it:
In 96-97 against an all star type of goaltender, seem that he would still be able to beat goaltender of the era with it, would he have has much time to launch it is an other question ?
And what make it particularly speculative if Gretzky start later with composite stick, less time shorter shift hockey and so on, chance are good that he play in a way that is adjusted to the time to still be has effective (if the team/coach give him the chance).
I too have doubt in a goal a game season in 95-96, but who knows playing on that power play and those wingers (specially if he has ice time with elite playmaker like Jagr or Francis), 35-40 in 70 with more assist to make up for it for a 30 year's old Greztky on that team would not surprise me, more for a peak one.
Do you remember the 1990s? Your 1996 wins leaders include:
Osgood
Carey
Brodeur
Ranford
Roy
Hextall
Fuhr
Potvin
Barrasso
Puppa
Burke
Hebert
Khabbibulin
Thibault
Vanbiesbrouck
Richter
Belfour
Fiset
Hasek
Vernon
Wregget
Tabaracci
Hackett
Healy
Hirsch
Terreri
Fitzpatrick
Joseph
Kidd
McLean
Also consider the impact of powerplays. Ignoring Lemieux's advantages in PP opportunities for a moment, Gretzky looks worse because he passed on the PP far more than Lemieux did. Before Gretzky's decline in 1991, he scored 41 goals, which seems unimpressive next to Lemieux around age 30. But because Gretzky had a ridiculous PPG - PPA ratio (8 PP goals, 51 PP assists), he's actually still keeping pace with Lemieux as an ES scorer (33 ES goals for Gretzky in 1991, 32 for Lemieux in 1996, 30 for Lemieux in 1997.)
A young Gretzky dominated ES goal scoring in a way a young Lemieux did not. Take away every PP goal he scored and Gretzky still wins 3 Retro Rockets in 1982, 1984, and 1985. Gretzky could have beaten a prime Mike Bossy for a goal scoring title, even if you removed his PP goals AND SH goals. In 1984 his ES goal total would put him 1 goal back of the league leader. That's a level of cartoonish domination that Lemieux didn't replicate, but other great ES goal scorers did (at least Conacher, Howe, Esposito, and both Bobby and Brett Hull. Stamkos came close).
The Panther
Registered User
Entirety of the Edmonton Years
Oct.1979 to April 1988:
vs. Winnipeg
56GP: 57G + 87A = 144PTS
(2.57 PPG)
vs. Hartford
27GP: 22G + 36A = 58PTS
(2.15 PPG)
vs. Quebec
28GP: 27G + 57A = 84PTS
(3.00 PPG)
TOTAL vs. Expansion Teams:
111GP: 106G + 180A = 286PTS
(2.57 PPG)
TOTAL vs. All Other Teams:
585GP: 477G + 906A = 1383PTS
(2.36 PPG)
i.e., the difference between a 206-point season and a 189-point season.
However, does the period all the way up to 1988 really matter, in terms of expansion teams? Maybe the first three seasons or so (1979-1982) are more meaningful in this regard, as they are seasons when those teams were really “expansion teams” (as was Edmonton, of course). So, let’s look at those three seasons:
1979 to 1982:
vs. Winnipeg
11GP: 10G + 15A = 25PTS
(2.27 PPG)
vs. Hartford
11GP: 8G + 13A = 21PTS
(1.91 PPG)
vs. Quebec
11GP: 11G + 15A = 26PTS
(2.36 PPG)
TOTAL vs. Expansion Teams:
33GP: 29G + 43A = 72PTS
(2.18 PPG)
TOTAL vs. All Other Teams:
206GP: 169G + 272A = 441PTS
(2.14 PPG)
i.e., the difference between a 174-point season and a 171-point season.
Based on these stats, I don’t see any evidence that Gretzky was doing any noticeably extra scoring against the three expansion teams of this era (indeed, he was scoring more against those three teams once they were established franchises than in the three years they were new).
I’m not really arsed about Gretzky’s stats post 1990-91, but I do notice that in 1991-92 he did do well against the 1st year San Jose Sharks. He faced the Sharks six times and put up 5 goals + 10 assists = 15 points, which was considerably better than his average otherwise that (somewhat pedestrian) season.
The last time Gretzky won the scoring title of course was 1993-94. Here’s how he did that year versus San Jose (in its third season), Tampa Bay (second season), and Ottawa (second season):
10GP: 5G + 14A = 19PTS
So, he got 1.9 PPG against those three teams (bear in mind, however, that San Jose and Tampa were both better than the Kings that season!) and 1.56 PPG against the rest of the League.
Oct.1979 to April 1988:
vs. Winnipeg
56GP: 57G + 87A = 144PTS
(2.57 PPG)
vs. Hartford
27GP: 22G + 36A = 58PTS
(2.15 PPG)
vs. Quebec
28GP: 27G + 57A = 84PTS
(3.00 PPG)
TOTAL vs. Expansion Teams:
111GP: 106G + 180A = 286PTS
(2.57 PPG)
TOTAL vs. All Other Teams:
585GP: 477G + 906A = 1383PTS
(2.36 PPG)
i.e., the difference between a 206-point season and a 189-point season.
However, does the period all the way up to 1988 really matter, in terms of expansion teams? Maybe the first three seasons or so (1979-1982) are more meaningful in this regard, as they are seasons when those teams were really “expansion teams” (as was Edmonton, of course). So, let’s look at those three seasons:
1979 to 1982:
vs. Winnipeg
11GP: 10G + 15A = 25PTS
(2.27 PPG)
vs. Hartford
11GP: 8G + 13A = 21PTS
(1.91 PPG)
vs. Quebec
11GP: 11G + 15A = 26PTS
(2.36 PPG)
TOTAL vs. Expansion Teams:
33GP: 29G + 43A = 72PTS
(2.18 PPG)
TOTAL vs. All Other Teams:
206GP: 169G + 272A = 441PTS
(2.14 PPG)
i.e., the difference between a 174-point season and a 171-point season.
Based on these stats, I don’t see any evidence that Gretzky was doing any noticeably extra scoring against the three expansion teams of this era (indeed, he was scoring more against those three teams once they were established franchises than in the three years they were new).
I’m not really arsed about Gretzky’s stats post 1990-91, but I do notice that in 1991-92 he did do well against the 1st year San Jose Sharks. He faced the Sharks six times and put up 5 goals + 10 assists = 15 points, which was considerably better than his average otherwise that (somewhat pedestrian) season.
The last time Gretzky won the scoring title of course was 1993-94. Here’s how he did that year versus San Jose (in its third season), Tampa Bay (second season), and Ottawa (second season):
10GP: 5G + 14A = 19PTS
So, he got 1.9 PPG against those three teams (bear in mind, however, that San Jose and Tampa were both better than the Kings that season!) and 1.56 PPG against the rest of the League.
McGuillicuddy
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- Sep 6, 2005
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Look again at that Oilers roster during his first few seasons.
I agree they were close overall. But there's no way he was as good a playmaker as Gretzky. Wayne has the 7 highest assist seasons in history, and is tied for 8th with Lemieux's best season. In all of hockey history, only 3 players have had 100 assist seasons. Orr once, with 102. Lemieux once, with 114. Gretztky 11 seasons in a row, capping out at 163. Gretzky had over 120 assists with the Kings. His 114 season (tied with Lemieux's best) was also with the Kings. Gretzky has more 100+ assist seasons with Kings than every other player has combined (since its only 2).
Also, saying Gretzky would be hard pressed to approach Lemieux from 93 onwards at any age is silly. He dominated the 93 playoffs with 40 pts that post season. He had more assists than anyone else had points while also being tied for the lead in goals. And this was coming off a major injury, on the downside of his career, 14 years in the NHL already.
There's nothing wrong with thinking Lemieux may have been more talented or better in other areas. IMO he was the best on a breakaway ever. He probably had a better shot overall than Wayne (though Gretzky's accuracy was ridiculous). But to say Gretzky couldn't have dominated when he'd already dominated the same league at the same time when Lemieux was younger seems silly to me. And saying ANYONE was as good a playmaker as Gretzky is simply false. You can say he was the next best, and I think there's a good chance of that. But when your best season is tied with someone else's 8th best and when they have multiple seasons on weaker teams that are as good or better than your best, there's no argument to be had there.
Jumptheshark
Rebooting myself
Oilets them selves were an expansion team.
And for me this is another thread about trying to down grade what he did.
How much did Mario, Sid the kid benefit?
And for me this is another thread about trying to down grade what he did.
How much did Mario, Sid the kid benefit?
And his scoring wasn't quite as high the first few seasons either, but my point was it was no ordinary expansion team.
I didn't say he couldn't have dominated, just not to the same extent. I find it hard to imagine Gretzky topping Lemieux in points from 95 and on when it became harder to score for the most part because he didn't have the size and strength to stand out in that era like Lemieux did.
Lemieux was first in ES goals in 1987-88, a close 2nd in 1988-89 while missing 4 games and in 1992-93 was hands down the best ES player in the league despite that being the season where everyone benefitted from the powerplay the most. He had 47 ES goals in 60 games (5 away from the lead while missing 24 games) and 6 shorthanded goals. He had 105 points ES + shorthanded in 60 games during a season where he came back fatigued after radiation treatment, I don't believe his ability there should be questioned.
Vanzig
Registered User
There were 2 PRO HOCKEY LEAGUES in the 1970’s,
ORR, LAFLEUR, ESPO etc would have benefited far more than Gretzky did in the 1980’s. When Gretz joined the best
players/4 teams of the WHA merged into 1 PRO LEAGUE (NHL).
I watch a game now and hardly no Hits/Fights, If a guy gets touched then suspension is usually issued.
Hockey was a lot more rough from it started up until Mid to Late 1990s then it started to get BETTMANIZED!!!
ORR, LAFLEUR, ESPO etc would have benefited far more than Gretzky did in the 1980’s. When Gretz joined the best
players/4 teams of the WHA merged into 1 PRO LEAGUE (NHL).
I watch a game now and hardly no Hits/Fights, If a guy gets touched then suspension is usually issued.
Hockey was a lot more rough from it started up until Mid to Late 1990s then it started to get BETTMANIZED!!!
In most contexts it shouldn't be questioned, but if you decide the goalposts are set to "Wayne Gretzky" then you have to recognize that he falls short. Excellence becomes disappointing in that context, because it's not a sign of success - it's the price of admission to the debate.
