streitz
Registered User
- Jul 22, 2018
- 1,258
- 319
You'd be wrong, but that's fine.
Weird then how once Gretzky left Edmonton a 23 year old Lemieux had 35 more goals and the same amount of assists as a 27/28 year old Gretzky in 2 less games. The point is, competition matters and Lemieux was simply a more skilled hockey player who hit his peak after the diluted period of the NHL while also dealing with a ton of injuries. It's not exactly an outrageous argument to make.
Wayne Gretzky could score 215 points on a team with the least powerplays in the league. Mario Lemieux never had the skill to do that.
*giggle*
Imagine Gretzky scoring 69 goals in 1996 in 70 games while still putting up 92 assists? Yeah, I can't either. 40-90 would've been possible for younger Gretzky but who are we kidding here he was in no way an elite goal scorer against good defensive systems and big butterfly goalies.
Keep operating in your fantasy land of what-ifs. Where's it got you? Or Lemieux?
How about you focus on the fact that your boy, for all his skillllz, was too frail to play entire seasons (when he chose to play) and was so much of a prima Donna that he skipped international events and entire NHL seasons.
I'll take the guy who parlayed superior IQ, skill, health and drive into, among many other things, the better playoff performer at every age.
Imagine Gretzky scoring 69 goals in 1996 in 70 games while still putting up 92 assists? Yeah, I can't either.
Old past injury/prime Gretzky has 92 assists in 93-94 and 72 assist in 96-97 on a team with 133 less powerplays than the 95-96 Penguins, it is really easy to imagine pre 1991 Gretzky putting 92+ assists with Jagr/Francis/Zubov/Nedved/Sandstrom/Naslund and company on that 95-96 Penguins team in 70 games.
Okay, but it's unlikely he comes close to Lemieux in goal scoring I think. It's all speculation, but I really Lemieux is the best offensive talent of all time.
Imagine Gretzky scoring 69 goals in 1996 in 70 games while still putting up 92 assists? Yeah, I can't either. 40-90 would've been possible for younger Gretzky but who are we kidding here he was in no way an elite goal scorer against good defensive systems and big butterfly goalies.
Lol, a dynasty expansion team. Either way though, he was just that much better than everyone until Lemieux broke out.
I agree they were close overall. But there's no way he was as good a playmaker as Gretzky. Wayne has the 7 highest assist seasons in history, and is tied for 8th with Lemieux's best season. In all of hockey history, only 3 players have had 100 assist seasons. Orr once, with 102. Lemieux once, with 114. Gretztky 11 seasons in a row, capping out at 163. Gretzky had over 120 assists with the Kings. His 114 season (tied with Lemieux's best) was also with the Kings. Gretzky has more 100+ assist seasons with Kings than every other player has combined (since its only 2).He had the skill to be an elite goal scorer on NHL caliber goalies by todays standards while still being as good of a playmaker as Gretzky, Age doesn't matter much when you never had the physical skillset to dominate modern defenses and goaltending to that extent to begin with. Gretzky would've been hard pressed to approach the domination Lemieux displayed from 1993 onwards whether he was 23 or 33.
Look again at that Oilers roster during his first few seasons.
I agree they were close overall. But there's no way he was as good a playmaker as Gretzky. Wayne has the 7 highest assist seasons in history, and is tied for 8th with Lemieux's best season. In all of hockey history, only 3 players have had 100 assist seasons. Orr once, with 102. Lemieux once, with 114. Gretztky 11 seasons in a row, capping out at 163. Gretzky had over 120 assists with the Kings. His 114 season (tied with Lemieux's best) was also with the Kings. Gretzky has more 100+ assist seasons with Kings than every other player has combined (since its only 2).
Also, saying Gretzky would be hard pressed to approach Lemieux from 93 onwards at any age is silly. He dominated the 93 playoffs with 40 pts that post season. He had more assists than anyone else had points while also being tied for the lead in goals. And this was coming off a major injury, on the downside of his career, 14 years in the NHL already.
There's nothing wrong with thinking Lemieux may have been more talented or better in other areas. IMO he was the best on a breakaway ever. He probably had a better shot overall than Wayne (though Gretzky's accuracy was ridiculous). But to say Gretzky couldn't have dominated when he'd already dominated the same league at the same time when Lemieux was younger seems silly to me. And saying ANYONE was as good a playmaker as Gretzky is simply false. You can say he was the next best, and I think there's a good chance of that. But when your best season is tied with someone else's 8th best and when they have multiple seasons on weaker teams that are as good or better than your best, there's no argument to be had there.
Do you remember the 1990s? Your 1996 wins leaders include:
Osgood
Carey
Brodeur
Ranford
Roy
Hextall
Fuhr
Potvin
Barrasso
Puppa
Burke
Hebert
Khabbibulin
Thibault
Vanbiesbrouck
Richter
Belfour
Fiset
Hasek
Vernon
Wregget
Tabaracci
Hackett
Healy
Hirsch
Terreri
Fitzpatrick
Joseph
Kidd
McLean
Also consider the impact of powerplays. Ignoring Lemieux's advantages in PP opportunities for a moment, Gretzky looks worse because he passed on the PP far more than Lemieux did. Before Gretzky's decline in 1991, he scored 41 goals, which seems unimpressive next to Lemieux around age 30. But because Gretzky had a ridiculous PPG - PPA ratio (8 PP goals, 51 PP assists), he's actually still keeping pace with Lemieux as an ES scorer (33 ES goals for Gretzky in 1991, 32 for Lemieux in 1996, 30 for Lemieux in 1997.)
A young Gretzky dominated ES goal scoring in a way a young Lemieux did not. Take away every PP goal he scored and Gretzky still wins 3 Retro Rockets in 1982, 1984, and 1985. Gretzky could have beaten a prime Mike Bossy for a goal scoring title, even if you removed his PP goals AND SH goals. In 1984 his ES goal total would put him 1 goal back of the league leader. That's a level of cartoonish domination that Lemieux didn't replicate, but other great ES goal scorers did (at least Conacher, Howe, Esposito, and both Bobby and Brett Hull. Stamkos came close).
Lemieux was first in ES goals in 1987-88, a close 2nd in 1988-89 while missing 4 games and in 1992-93 was hands down the best ES player in the league despite that being the season where everyone benefitted from the powerplay the most. He had 47 ES goals in 60 games (5 away from the lead while missing 24 games) and 6 shorthanded goals. He had 105 points ES + shorthanded in 60 games during a season where he came back fatigued after radiation treatment, I don't believe his ability there should be questioned.