How many years has Sidney Crosby been the best player?

[Son Goku]

In what way is Crosby better than Ovechkin this season? Is Crosby even the best player on his own team this year?

Absolutely by a f***ing long shot and don't give me point totals either watch the actual games.

 

[libertarian]

Since Crosby came into the league he has been the constant best player over his career. Won 3 SC's and will be seen as the best player of his generation. This does not mean OV and M were not also great players.

McD is now better and his reign as the best has just begun.

 

[Regal]

In ‘08,Crosby only played 58 games while Malkin finished 2nd in points and was a Hart nominee. Why give Crosby the nod?

Also you can’t give Crosby that credit in 2012. That’s way to little of games to go off of, while Malkin has arguably the most dominant year from a forward post lockout. Crosby has no business in that discussion, it was Malkin.

Crosby and McDavid/Kane in 2016 and 2017? Based on what? Kane and McDavid out played Crosby considerably and earned their crown that year.

Crosby appears to have more seasons at the top based on grace period than actual performance. He hasn’t been as dominant since 2014, but many still give him the credit because of past play.

That's basically what it comes down to, which really makes it two different questions: How many years was he considered the best based on more that just the season in question?, and How many years was he considered the best within a single season? The time period for Crosby being a legitimate answer to "who's the best player in the world?" or "who would you take going into next season?" or "who would you take for a playoff series starting tomorrow?" is quite long due to his consistency among the best, but the number of seasons he actually performed like the best in the league is much shorter

 

[Bustedprospect]

NHL hockey isn't just about goals/assists and regular season fame, the big prize is Lord Stanley's Cup. I think most people would agree if you had to pick between all the good forwards for a playoff run for the cup Sidney would be #1. why?, because he's the #1 winner available today.

Without Malkin its not sure he wins a single cup. He was just very fortunate to have one of the best players in recent memory on his own team in a cap-era.

Had he been born Russian, Swedish or in Finland how many olympic golds does he win?

 

[Pizza the Hutt]

Without Malkin its not sure he wins a single cup. He was just very fortunate to have one of the best players in recent memory on his own team in a cap-era.

Fact: Wayne Gretzky won zero cups without Mark Messier.

 

[Troubadour]

Fact: Wayne Gretzky won zero cups without Mark Messier.

Another fact: Crosby has been nowhere close to the dominance of Gretzky. If he kept outscoring Malkin by a hundred points each year, very few people would dare to bring up Geno here.

The way things really are, we should debate how many years Sid has been the best player on his team, and move from there.

If the question stood "how many years has Crosby been among the top 5 players in the game", I would reply "his entire pro career".

To the question of this thread, I reply 4-5.

 

[Sam Spade]

NHL hockey isn't just about goals/assists and regular season fame, the big prize is Lord Stanley's Cup. I think most people would agree if you had to pick between all the good forwards for a playoff run for the cup Sidney would be #1. why?, because he's the #1 winner available today.

Or Malkin, or Kane, or Toews..........

Fact: Wayne Gretzky won zero cups without Mark Messier.

Yep but he dragged a team to the '93 Final, who without looking it up, most people couldn't name more than three other players on it.

 

[authentic]

Another fact: Crosby has been nowhere close to the dominance of Gretzky. If he kept outscoring Malkin by a hundred points each year, very few people would dare to bring up Geno here.

The way things really are, we should debate how many years Sid has been the best player on his team, and move from there.

If the question stood "how many years has Crosby been among the top 5 players in the game", I would reply "his entire pro career".

To the question of this thread, I reply 4-5.

Probably all but two or three at the most.

 

[authentic]

Or Malkin, or Kane, or Toews..........



Yep but he dragged a team to the '93 Final, who without looking it up, most people couldn't name more than three other players on it.

Most points and points per game in the playoffs along with the most Conn Smythe trophies should put him #1, no?

 

[412 Others]

It's bizarre how some people act as if Ovechkin declines assists, while Crosby deviously compiles them. If Ovechkin could produce more points, he would. Guys that stand around waiting for one timers aren't exactly driving offense and racking up assists.

 

[mrv52]

It's bizarre how some people act as if Ovechkin declines assists, while Crosby deviously compiles them. If Ovechkin could produce more points, he would. Guys that stand around waiting for one timers aren't exactly driving offense and racking up assists.

As unrelated to the subject of the thread that this is, I'll bite.

Its equally bizarre that some people "act" that the guy who has scored more goals than anyone in the league since several years before he entered it, doesn't drive offense.

The most simple definition of offense is goals no? To put it in relation to assists, how many assists has Ovechkin generated by putting the puck in the net?

 

[end]

Other players have obviously put together incredible years and been rewarded. Carey Price earned his Hart and yet he doesn't appear on these "best player" lists. For a good reason; this "best player" list is really judged by what people thought going into each year. Who would the Hockey News take with the first pick in a fantasy draft? For a number of years it was a tossup between Crosby and Ovechkin, with two or three I'd legitimately see Ovie as the guy going into the year. But after 2010 it's fairly obvious that Crosby was the guy anyone would pick going into the year, even if Henrik Sedin or Corey Perry or Carey Price actually had the better year. Connor's first Art Ross entered him into the discussion and by his second I'd say he's the one. Crosby is around late-period Yzerman where you know he won't lead the league in scoring but he might captain his team to a Cup.

The "Malkin is actually his team's best player" line would work if any team had ever, ever matched its top pairing defense and checking line against Malkin instead of Crosby. Mike Babcock matches Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Lidstrom-Rafalski against Crosby, Malkin gets Val Filppula and Brad Stuart. This is why Malkin producing is crucial to the team wininng, they're split up intentionally to cause mismatches.

 

[GreatGonzo]

NHL hockey isn't just about goals/assists and regular season fame, the big prize is Lord Stanley's Cup. I think most people would agree if you had to pick between all the good forwards for a playoff run for the cup Sidney would be #1. why?, because he's the #1 winner available today.

I mean Justin Williams was once the “#1 winner” as well......

It’s not all about goals and assists, yet those actually win games and Crosby has had another playoff great on his own team fully capable of scoring and making plays with other solid forwards. Like I’ve stated before. The Pens have been good enough where Crosby hasn’t had to even be their number one scorer, while also being able to be mediocre in the 2009 finals and subpar in 2016.

Try to separate a team trophy from the individuals will you? Crosby wouldn’t be winning anything on those Oilers teams.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Absolutely by a ****ing long shot and don't give me point totals either watch the actual games.

In other words you have no actual evidence supporting your claim, just your bias opinion.....Ovechkin leads the league in goals and has Crosby beat by 2 points, yet “actually watch the games bro.”

Classic.

That's basically what it comes down to, which really makes it two different questions: How many years was he considered the best based on more that just the season in question?, and How many years was he considered the best within a single season? The time period for Crosby being a legitimate answer to "who's the best player in the world?" or "who would you take going into next season?" or "who would you take for a playoff series starting tomorrow?" is quite long due to his consistency among the best, but the number of seasons he actually performed like the best in the league is much shorter

I agree. I still gotta give his 2011, 2013-15 as the longest time period where he, IMO, was the best player in the world. After and before that is up for debate, but he was definitely in the conversation.

I don’t understand he playoff series argument honestly. I mean I wouldn’t pick Crosby for a playoff series without Malkin there, but I’m sure a lot of people would choose Malkin as well, he has lead the Pens 2/3 of their cup victories.

Between let’s say McDavid and Crosby, people go immediately to playoff play because that’s the only aspect that he has him beat in, the problem is it’s still very much put McDavid at a loss no matter what. I doubt Crosby would have done any better on those Oilers teams, especially last year. He has a situated team around him, McDavid is carrying his team.

 

[Bustedprospect]

McD is now better and his reign as the best has just begun.

McD really need a supporting cast to do anything. His scoring is getting hurt, the team miss the playoffs and he lost a Hart last season due to this fact.

He doesnt have anything to work with at the moment. Drai isnt close to Malkin and even a guy like Backis. McD can win a lot of Rosses but odds are he will end up like Jagr.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

Without Malkin its not sure he wins a single cup. He was just very fortunate to have one of the best players in recent memory on his own team in a cap-era.

Had he been born Russian, Swedish or in Finland how many olympic golds does he win?

I'm not sure how this is relevant since its a team sport.

I suspect the awesomest leader evar in toews likely wouldnt have won without Kane (using a recent example).

 

[Voight]

People saying Crosby was the best in 2012 need to give their a head a shake. He played what, 22 games?

 

[discobob]

Based on hindsight and giving a little bit of carryover year-by-year...

???-2010 Ovechkin
2011-2016 Crosby
2017-??? McDavid

Over his whole career he's been consistently closer to the top than anyone else, but Ovechkin is pretty close. Goal scoring is more valuable than points scoring (most rational people recognize this). The problem comes in then you try to quantify "how much" more important. Doubt there will ever be much consensus there...

 

[OVrocks]

0

 

[Voight]

Based on hindsight and giving a little bit of carryover year-by-year...

???-2010 Ovechkin
2011-2016 Crosby
2017-??? McDavid

Over his whole career he's been consistently closer to the top than anyone else, but Ovechkin is pretty close. Goal scoring is more valuable than points scoring (most rational people recognize this). The problem comes in then you try to quantify "how much" more important. Doubt there will ever be much consensus there...

2013-2015***

 

[GlitchMarner]

That doesn’t matter though. You can’t simplt assume we would have beaten Ovechkin that year, he could have slowed down, could have gotten injured later on....to many elements to crown him the best player after only 58 games when his own teammate had an impressive season, where as Ovechkin had one of the best post lockout.

That doesn’t make him the undisputed best year by year though. After 2015, he has taken a back seat to Kane and now McDavid, and before 2011, he was close....but still behind Ovechkin who was at his peak.

And this proves what exactly? Doesn’t matter how close he is to them or what have you. Crosby hasn’t been better than McDavid, or even the clear cut favorite on his own team.

Guenztel had the same amount of points with one more goal, topping Crosby. But like I’ve stated before, McDavid was still more impressive, not his fault he didn’t have a Malkin or Kessel to carry a majority of the load to a playoff run. Crosby finished 3rd that year and still 2nd in the playoffs despite his freak run.

I never doubted he would be near the top but it’s ridiculous to simplt assume he would have regardless. Ovechkin was still clearly the best player while Malkin showed himself as one of the top centers in the league.

I mean I don’t really think it’s arguable....75 games, 109 points compared to 22 games....I don’t see how anyone can make up for those 60 games with any logic.

Don’t you see how that’s a bit odd though? Why suddenly change that standard to playoffs being more valuable? Kane was clearly the better and more valuable player to his team.....while like you stated, Crosby had 19 points in 23 games in a very weak post season that saw some major bias voting towards him over Kessel and Murray. Don’t you think one of the strongest Hart seasons in recent years is better than one of th weakest Smythe runs in recent years?

It was his first post season.....and Crosby didn’t even lead his team in production that year. Once again, you change then standard to favor Crosby.

Maybe. Crosby was dominating before injuries while Daniel and Perry, although great seasons, weren’t stand out to me. Crosby also led his team in points while missing half the season.

I'm not really that huge a Crosby fan to begin with and I'm certainly not daver; thus I have no reason to be biased in favor of him.

It just comes down to what your criteria is for determining best player. I tend to give some leeway for track record, but it's usually limited to a short of time. I think that to fall off the perch someone needs to beat you by a wide and clear margin or you need to have a very lackluster season for a player in conversation for the best.

I didn't include Crosby for 2009 or 2018 because I believe Ovechkin, Malkin and McDavid put enough of a gap between themselves and him to knock him off the pedestal and that they had done well enough in the previous season to challenge him.

Ovechkin had the best season in 2008 and I think that season is actually better than any season Crosby has had, but do you think Crosby should be bumped entirely when it's unknown how well he would have done if he hadn't gotten injured? He was playing at a high level before his injury. The previous season he had won the Art Ross, Hart and Pearson and he was better than Ovechkin, so you have to give him some leeway as well.

I think the following season is when they both are healthy and Ovechkin surpasses him (for the time being). I can probably be talked into having Ovechkin at the top for 2010 because he missed some games himself that season and I think he would have taken the Art Ross and Rocket if he had played 80-82 games and he would have had a good shot at winning the Hart as well. However, you can argue that being suspended is different than being injured because you have more control over whether you're suspended.

In 2011 I think Crosby showed enough that you can say he was best player the season even though he didn't have the best season because he got hurt. Ovechkin regressed that season,.

In 2012 Malkin obviously had the best season. I'm not arguing Crosby was the best or co-best based on performance. You also can't say with any sort of certainty that Crosby would have matched or surpassed his season if healthier. But Malkin wasn't that good in 2011 and I think it's fair to have him alongside Crosby for "world's best" after that season if we're going by track record and ability.

In 2016 Kane blew Crosby out of the water in scoring and he was very good when healthy in 2015; therefore, he was in a position to challenge Crosby. I don't find Crosby's Conn Smythe all that impressive and I felt Kessel was more deserving, but Crosby was still a valuable contributor to his team's Cup. Overall, Kane still did better than Crosby in 2016 (even if you combine regular season and playoffs IMO). Crosby had outpaced him the previous season and had had a better season, but Kane's playoffs in 2015 > Crosby's. I believe having them on equal footing after 2016 is fair.

In 2017 I'm not disparaging McDavid's playoffs and it's not like Crosby lit the world on fire in his first playoffs; however, his 2017 Smythe is a lot better than the one he won in 2016 and I think it was deserved. Like with Ovechkin earlier, this season is the prelude to a change. McDavid asserts himself as the co-best and then surpasses Crosby the next season.

 

[FinProspects]

That's not true. There are players who have stronger jaws than Crosby. There are players who hit the boards hard and don't sprain ankles. There are players who take elbows and keep playing. There are players who play a far more physical game than Crosby and still keep going.

Ovechkin is such a player.

To ignore these facts and the actual history and the actual results is not equitable to the players who have shown up every night - or nearly every night.

Put Ovie in front of Orpik's slapper and see what happens I mean that is just idiotic to say, sorry man.

Sid is actually very durable. He just has had one major injury (well actually two injuries combined, concussion+neck issue), which caused him to miss 100 reg season games. Then puck to the face, and ankle, which caused him about 40 games. Thats about it really.

For other seasons he has played:
81,79,77,81,80,77,80,75,82

Thats 9 full seasons out of 13.

Its a complete myth that Sid is not durable or injury prone.

Take Malkin:
78,82,82,67,43,75,31 (out of 48),60,69,57,62,78

Thats 4 full seasons out of 12.

Ovie of course is a freak of nature, who has not missed any games in his career which is mind blowing, given his style.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Ah, the classic goal argument. Here's a fact: secondary assists are available to ALL players in this league if they contribute to a goal. Here's another fact: Crosby has been involved in about same number of goals despite playing 1.5 seasons less than Ovechkin. Here's another fact: Crosby has a lot more primary assists than secondary in his career.

Last season, he had 2 more points than Ovechkin in regular season followed by 21 points in 12 playoff games. So I guess now we're back to having overall playoff success being important. It didn't matter before last season though, according to most Ovechkin supporters when comparing the players because "hockey is a team sport". Everyone complained about CS 2016, but no complaints with Kuznetsov not winning CS. As usual, we're all hypocrites when it comes to favorite team/player.

Despite saying all of that, I won't go out of my way to diminish Ovechkin's accomplishments. He deserved the cup, is a goal scoring machine and the 2nd best goal scorer of all time. We get to witness two generational players, and one is marginally better than the other. And that's okay.

Saying all secondary assists are trash and meaningless is definitely taking it too far, but so is valuing them exactly as much as goals or primary assists even though they are technically worth a full point. Considering secondary points entirely equal to primary points skews scoring in a way that informed hockey fans really shouldn't skew it.

 

[Novak Djokovic]

"Other players have stronger jaws". My god, that's an absurd statement even by Midnight Judges' standards.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lol Crosby is better than Ovechkin this season. It’s painfully obvious. Crosby drives the play while Ovechkin is now just a trigger man