How Important is Toughness?

[diceman934]

Bobby Orr was considered bad defensively.

Ya know what? It didn't really matter. He spent 10% of his icetime in his own zone. The other 90% was him flying through the neutral zone with the puck, or peppering the other team's goalie.

So 10% of "bad" play, is peanuts next to 90% of domination.

Same applies to Kane and Karlsson.

Did you ever see him play, because I would be shocked if anyone who ever saw him play would say this. Bobby Orr played on the PK and most often killed the penalty by himself. He would get the puck and then toy with the opponents by using speed, change of pace skating, and change of direction to not only kill off the penalty but often create offense.

You inferring that Karlsson is a comparable player is beyond crazy.....he is no where the same player. Orr was also very tough to play against!

Why the Norris is not named the Orr Trophy now is what I find surprising. Best player who ever played the game in my opinion!

 

[Ari91]

Toughness is important but not the old school toughness that Burke was obsessed with. Better to be tough to play against with the puck on your stick than it is to be useless with a puck and tough with your fists. The theory behind an Orr or McLaren I understand but in practice, you need better players to fulfill those roles. You don't need fighters, you just need hockey players that are willing to drop the gloves to defend themself or their teammates. You need players that can battle in front of the nets and use their body to make space and opportunitites for themselves and their linemates.

So yeah, toughness is important, it's just the criteria has shifted from what it used to be.

 

[diceman934]

Thought that I would throw this in.....Bobby Orr the best player ever in my eyes....The Op tried passing him off as weak defensively and soft with his stupid comparison. I hated him as he beat us all by himself, but also knew that he was the best player ever. To think even back then we were stupid....Orr was ours to be had!

 

[sommervr]

Toughness is always important. It doesnt matter how big you are or if you can fight. Guys like Bobby Clarke couldnt fight but would rather die than give an inch.

Leafs have a toughness problem with the top talent. Kessel and Phaneuf both visible pull the chute often and Bozak is one of the softest players in the league. Doesn't matter how many tough guys play 4 minutes a night with this bunch playing 20 plus.

 

[diceman934]

Toughness is always important. It doesnt matter how big you are or if you can fight. Guys like Bobby Clarke couldnt fight but would rather die than give an inch.

Leafs have a toughness problem with the top talent. Kessel and Phaneuf both visible pull the chute often and Bozak is one of the softest players in the league. Doesn't matter how many tough guys play 4 minutes a night with this bunch playing 20 plus.

Exactly....we need some real passion from our top players....players who will take a check to make a play, players who put the team before themselves. Our core is flawed, and we have Burke to thank for this....

 

[Tak7]

Exactly....we need some real passion from our top players....players who will take a check to make a play, players who put the team before themselves. Our core is flawed, and we have Burke to thank for this....

Guys like Kulemin and McClement.

Good thing they are coming back next season

 

[diceman934]

Guys like Kulemin and McClement.

Good thing they are coming back next season

I missed your point?

 

[sommervr]

Whomever said Bobby Orr was soft and bad defensively doesn't have a clue. He was tough everywhere on the ice and a real dirty fighter (basically NHL ground n pound)

 

[Quares27]

Guys like Kulemin and McClement.

Good thing they are coming back next season

Yes because players whose main characteristic is taking a hit to make a play are so hard to replace...

 

[bleeney]

Thought that I would throw this in.....Bobby Orr the best player ever in my eyes....The Op tried passing him off as weak defensively and soft with his stupid comparison. I hated him as he beat us all by himself, but also knew that he was the best player ever. To think even back then we were stupid....Orr was ours to be had!

That video brings a tear to my eye.

Bobby Orr was simply the greatest, most complete player I've ever seen. I was fortunate enough to watch him from the time he was a rookie, and Orr dominated the ice, the entire ice, like no one else. He was every bit as talented offensively as Gretzky and Lemieux, but he was so much more. Offense/defense, powerplay/PK, wide open hockey or battles in the trenches...Orr was always the best player in the game, no matter the situation.

And to think that the Leafs could've had him......

 

[AustonMitchWilly]

Players playing tough is important but having designated "tough guys" isnt IMO.

 

[Teeder9]

Thought that I would throw this in.....Bobby Orr the best player ever in my eyes....The Op tried passing him off as weak defensively and soft with his stupid comparison. I hated him as he beat us all by himself, but also knew that he was the best player ever. To think even back then we were stupid....Orr was ours to be had!

The person who put Creed to a Bobby Orr video should be shot. Nothing to do with Orr or video either. Just for liking them

 

[TLeafsFan]

Okay, so team toughness. Very important as long as it comes from a complete player. Skill only (Kessel), or toughness only (C. Orr) doesn't amount to much of anything when the smoke clears.

Its the Lucic's of today's NHL that complete a team and take it to the next level.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Okay, so team toughness. Very important as long as it comes from a complete player. Skill only (Kessel), or toughness only (C. Orr) doesn't amount to much of anything when the smoke clears.

Its the Lucic's of today's NHL that complete a team and take it to the next level.

You dont have to take Lucic, one of few if perhaps not only prototypical power forward in todays NHL.
Toughness does not have to be about dishing it out. It can be about taking it with out allowing to to effect your game. So a skill guy, lets say Zetterberg or Parise can take hits to make plays. Go to the dirty areas and withstand the punishment from bigger and stronger defenders with out backing down from them.
That to me is toughness. No one expect either of those to lead their teams in hits (mostly because they mostly have the puck when they are on the ice) or get in to fights. But you can rely on them doing what it takes to win, and play through pain.

 

[diceman934]

That video brings a tear to my eye.

Bobby Orr was simply the greatest, most complete player I've ever seen. I was fortunate enough to watch him from the time he was a rookie, and Orr dominated the ice, the entire ice, like no one else. He was every bit as talented offensively as Gretzky and Lemieux, but he was so much more. Offense/defense, powerplay/PK, wide open hockey or battles in the trenches...Orr was always the best player in the game, no matter the situation.

And to think that the Leafs could've had him......

We must be around the same age as I too had the same privilege of watching him. Best ever. I remember him and Pat Quinn fight at a game at the Gardens and it was right in front of me... I had seats in the golds for that game. If it was no days I would have pics of the fight..no cell phones back in the day. I remember listening to the games on my transistor radio while laying in bed.

 

[Stephen]

Great teams usually have a lot of great hockey players who commit to their assigned roles, even if they happen to be on the third or fourth line. I think Leafs fans can confuse the notions of "great player playing a role" with "role players who play great".

 

[TankNationTillDeath]

This hurts my brain...

You realize this roster:

P. Kane - P. Kane - P. Kane
P. Kane - P. Kane - P. Kane
P. Kane - P. Kane - P. Kane
P. Kane - P. Kane - P. Kane

Karlsson - Karlsson
Karlsson - Karlsson
Karlsson - Karlsson

Goalie


Would beat any current NHL team, including the Cup-winning LA Kings, right?
Please tell me you understand that.

Dumbest post/logic I have ever read. Hands down.

1) Way over the cap, by a hundred mil or so.

2) This is a your same argument:

A. Semin - A. Semin - A. Semin
A. Semin - A. Semin - A. Semin
A. Semin - A. Semin - A. Semin
A. Semin - A. Semin - A. Semin

T. Kaberle - T. Kaberle
T. Kaberle - T. Kaberle
T. Kaberle - T. Kaberle

How many playoff games could this team win?

3) What if your line-up was up against

M. Messier - M. Messier - M. Messier
M. Messier - M. Messier - M. Messier
M. Messier - M. Messier - M. Messier
M. Messier - M. Messier - M. Messier (Or replace with Cam Neely, even Shanahan or Gilmour/Clark)

S. Steven - S. Stevens
S. Steven - S. Stevens
S. Steven - S. Stevens

Do you think your line-up would win any 7 game playoff series? Yeah, I didn't think so.
Please tell me you understand?

 

[Tak7]

Great teams usually have a lot of great hockey players who commit to their assigned roles, even if they happen to be on the third or fourth line. I think Leafs fans can confuse the notions of "great player playing a role" with "role players who play great".

Gem of a post.

That Burke clip about plumbers and carpenters when comparing the USA Olympic hockey team in 2010 to Canada's really comes to mind.

 

[TLeafsFan]

You dont have to take Lucic, one of few if perhaps not only prototypical power forward in todays NHL.
Toughness does not have to be about dishing it out. It can be about taking it with out allowing to to effect your game. So a skill guy, lets say Zetterberg or Parise can take hits to make plays. Go to the dirty areas and withstand the punishment from bigger and stronger defenders with out backing down from them.
That to me is toughness. No one expect either of those to lead their teams in hits (mostly because they mostly have the puck when they are on the ice) or get in to fights. But you can rely on them doing what it takes to win, and play through pain.

Understood but both types are advantageous when filling out a roster is my point.

 

[Crash Test Domi*]

You need toughness. You need enforcers. Period.