How Important is Toughness?

[BlueMapleDawg]

All by his lonesome, huh? He really is amazing.

I'll take a team of Bergeron and Suter over Kane and Karlsson every day and twice on Sundays.

Sure. But I said Kane-Karlsson would wreck any current NHL team.

The whole point was that skill takes over a "balanced" roster with grinders. Why stop at Bergeron and Suter? I'll go with Crosby and Doughty.

There are no Biggs' or scrubs on the elite world teams. So given the option, why would you EVER select that type of player over a small/soft but elite talent?

 

[cack]

Hockey as we know it today has made huge strides since the dinosaur age. Way back in the year 2014 the Los Angeles Kings won another championship with role players being as important as their elite players. Coincidentally in the year 2013 the Chicago Blackhawks won another championship with role players such as Bryan Bickell being as important as Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews.

 

[Jacquestrapless]

It depends I suppose. Detroit, a veteran and battle-hardened team, would not easily be intimidated and their vets would insulate and nurture their rookies. A team like ours, however, can be intimidated easily judging by the fact Randy always has an enforcer in the line-up. Our bottom-six grinders can't grind and aren't big. Our top-six is pretty soft, anyone can pretty much take runs at our players and who would stick up for them? Phaneuf doesn't fight and I remember Gleason getting ko'd against the Islanders. Orr and Mclaren are liabilities and can't really play.

This is why 4ths liners that can play and fight are so important now. It would be nice to have a Lucic but those are rare. Btw I've always wondered if we had a team of all Kessels, who would do the dirty work such as board play. He is sometimes known as a floater after all.

 

[YorkshireRose]

that team wouldnt be cap compliant.

and would be wayy too easy to coach against, is kane or karlsson gonna step up when lucic buries either one into the boards or takes a run at the nameless Goalie?
Is karlsson going to clear byfuglien from in front of the net?
Which one will block the weber point shot?

variation is key to a winning team, and toughness plays a big part in it

 

[nsleaf]

Since this seems to be fantasy land, how about this scenario: So when center Kane on the first line gets caught with his head down and is absolutely pasted and starts to shy away from the play because he is now intimidated and afraid, do the other Kane clones also shy away or do they need to get pasted as well?

 

[Liminality]

This hurts my brain...

You realize this roster:

P. Kane - P. Kane - P. Kane
P. Kane - P. Kane - P. Kane
P. Kane - P. Kane - P. Kane
P. Kane - P. Kane - P. Kane

Karlsson - Karlsson
Karlsson - Karlsson
Karlsson - Karlsson

Goalie


Would beat any current NHL team, including the Cup-winning LA Kings, right?
Please tell me you understand that.

The only thing holding your dream back, is the salary cap.

That is why there needs to be a balance and that is why role players exist.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

I think it really depends.

In the shortened seasons toughness did wonders for us. Got us into the playoffs and we really stood our ground against Boston. Plus we had all kinds of speed to match that toughness. That made for the best Leaf team in a long time.

Unfortunately our tough players played like garbage the following season. So at the end of the day skill is number one, if the skilled guys can play tough than great - look how well we did! But if we sacrifice skill for pugnacity, then we are making a mistake.

Very glad we took Nylander.

 

[7even]

The only thing holding your dream back, is the salary cap.

That is why there needs to be a balance and that is why role players exist.

That's essentially the point. He's saying that role players have jobs because there's not enough talent to spread between 30 teams. Which is true. Blame the expansion era

 

[Jacquestrapless]

Since this seems to be fantasy land, how about this scenario: So when center Kane on the first line gets caught with his head down and is absolutely pasted and starts to shy away from the play because he is now intimidated and afraid, do the other Kane clones also shy away or do they need to get pasted as well?

Seriously dude? He can handle himself. Remember the taxi incident. He showed that cab driver a thing or two. Pretty sure he can stand up to the Lucics and Bickells of the league. He can also fight in NHL 14 right? Then he can totally fight in real life or else EA is a ******* liar.

 

[Liminality]

That's essentially the point. He's saying that role players have jobs because there's not enough talent to spread between 30 teams. Which is true. Blame the expansion era

I see it more as the more talent you have up top, the less talent you'll have on your lower lines. Unless your doing some great cap management it's more than likely your paying top dollar for top end talent.

To have a talented bottom line as well as a talented top line you'll have to sacrifice on how much top end talent the top line really has.

This is how I see it.

You can go top end talent
100%-100%-100%
80%-80%-80%
60%-60%-60%
40%-40%-40%

Or you can try to balance your talent

70%-70%-70%
70%-70%-70%
70%-70%-70%
70%-70%-70%

That also comes with the risk of your talented players not being happy on the 4th or 3rd lines. Talented players want to play on the top two lines and get power play time. With role players, they know what they need to do and everyone on the team has specific jobs.

 

[Purity*]

Toughness I find is very overrated today and should NEVER be prioritized over actual hockey skill like Nonis has done. We downgraded in speed and skill last off-season in favor of grit and leadership and our team got even worse.

LA Kings? Sure they're a tough team, but when have they ever prioritized toughness over skill? That team oozes with hockey skill: Kopitar, Carter, Doughty, Gaborik, Voynov, Richards.. Puck possession is the name of the game in their books..

Blackhawks? Kane, Saad, Toews, Keith, Sharp, Hossa, need I go on? They based their team around pure speed and skill with very little consideration for "toughness" and their team is superb.

St. Louis Blues are a team who prioritized toughness over speed and skill and they've had very little success in the playoffs. The Boston Bruins who thrive on a toughness type of game were dismantled by the Habs speed and skill this year, and the year before, they got dismantled by the Hawks speed and skill.

The writing is on the wall for anyone who wants to see.

 

[Joey Hoser]

You don't think Kane would make Team Canada if he was Canadian?

St Louis didn't make it just months after winning an Art Ross trophy, and the only reason he ended up on the team was because of an injury and public outcry. He barely played.

 

[studebaker17]

Toughness I find is very overrated today and should NEVER be prioritized over actual hockey skill like Nonis has done. We downgraded in speed and skill last off-season in favor of grit and leadership and our team got even worse.

LA Kings? Sure they're a tough team, but when have they ever prioritized toughness over skill? That team oozes with hockey skill: Kopitar, Carter, Doughty, Gaborik, Voynov, Richards.. Puck possession is the name of the game in their books..

Blackhawks? Kane, Saad, Toews, Keith, Sharp, Hossa, need I go on? They based their team around pure speed and skill with very little consideration for "toughness" and their team is superb.

St. Louis Blues are a team who prioritized toughness over speed and skill and they've had very little success in the playoffs. The Boston Bruins who thrive on a toughness type of game were dismantled by the Habs speed and skill this year, and the year before, they got dismantled by the Hawks speed and skill.

The writing is on the wall for anyone who wants to see.

chicago's players aside from kane maybe are all tough in their own ways. they play with some grit and play in the dirty areas. if a small skilled player can't do that then they'll at most be a reg season scorer.
boston is slow. the leafs almost took them with speed and matched their toughness.

 

[Menzinger]

Skill/talent is far more important than grit/toughness/size.

Teams like LA and Chicago do well ( aside from having exceptionally talented top six players) in that their coaches can rely on their bottom six players to not only control the puck, but also create scoring opportunities.

There is certainly a role for 'grit' in the game (even a valuable one too!), but it shouldn't come to dominate a team's philosophy.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Mental toughness is extrememly important. Physical toughness, especially fighting isn't particularly consequential.

 

[Dangles McGavin]

In a grueling sport like hockey; yes, toughness is important.

However, having one player who fights does not constitute as toughness. It is team toughness that matters. Look at LA, as a team, they are tough- they don’t get rattled in scuffles, they have each other’s backs, and have actual players who are willing to drop the mitts. Hitters are underrated in the playoffs. Any opportunity you have to wear down your opponent when you’re playing them more than once consecutively is big.

And momentum is a real thing. A big hit can change or gain your team momentum. And when you see one of your players going out and playing physical, adrenaline gets pumping and you want to join the battle.

Tl;dr team toughness is important.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

A good team is like a Swiss army knife. A tool for just about everything even do the cutting blade is the main tool, as always.

 

[BlueMapleDawg]

In a grueling sport like hockey; yes, toughness is important.

However, having one player who fights does not constitute as toughness. It is team toughness that matters. Look at LA, as a team, they are tough- they don’t get rattled in scuffles, they have each other’s backs, and have actual players who are willing to drop the mitts. Hitters are underrated in the playoffs. Any opportunity you have to wear down your opponent when you’re playing them more than once consecutively is big.

And momentum is a real thing. A big hit can change or gain your team momentum. And when you see one of your players going out and playing physical, adrenaline gets pumping and you want to join the battle.

Tl;dr team toughness is important.

Every example of a "tough" team is a team that has championship skill.

Kopitar, Williams, Carter, Gaborik, Doughty, Muzzin.
Those are the guys that carry the load and win.

I wouldn't call the rest passengers, but without those main top-line guys, there is no Stanley Cup.

Same goes for Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith.
Or Bergeron, Krejci, Chara, Thomas/Rask.

You win with skill guys. Without them, you're just a rag-tag "tough" team that's incredibly easy to play against. Aka the Leafs. Not enough skill, way too much "tough".

That's the whole point of this topic.

 

[hoglund]

toughness can be a problem, even though hits can be clean, they always seem to turn into penalties. I agree that toughness used to be important, but with NHL refs these days you barely touch someone and you're in the box.

 

[nsleaf]

I guess it depends on how you define toughness. Being able to fight does not necessarily make you tough. I look at toughness as being not easily intimidated by your opponents skills and reputations.

 

[Quares27]

Every example of a "tough" team is a team that has championship skill.

Kopitar, Williams, Carter, Gaborik, Doughty, Muzzin.
Those are the guys that carry the load and win.

I wouldn't call the rest passengers, but without those main top-line guys, there is no Stanley Cup.

Same goes for Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith.
Or Bergeron, Krejci, Chara, Thomas/Rask.

You win with skill guys. Without them, you're just a rag-tag "tough" team that's incredibly easy to play against. Aka the Leafs. Not enough skill, way too much "tough".

That's the whole point of this topic.

Bergeron/Lucic/Marchand are not Toews/Kane/Hossa though. There's a pretty clear difference in skill between them. Bergeron, Lucic. Marchand, Krejci do not have more skill than Kessel, JVR, Kadri and Lupul. They are just more rounded in other parts of the game. Better defensively, more physical, better on the PK, etc. And yet you're arguing that it's the Leafs that dont have enough skill, while the Bruins do? that doesn't make any sense. In fact that comparison would completely go against your argument because you're saying all that matters is skill, and yet the Leafs top scorers have more skill than the Bruins top players but the Bruins win because their top players are better in other areas. But according to you those other areas dont matter. You don't have a clue what you're even complaining about.

 

[Mansfield]

An obsession with role players is what lands you a Clarkson contract.

this. if two teams of equal skill play, the tougher team will probably win, but only when the skill is equal.

concentrate on aquiring a skilled team first. once you are a skilled enough to win the stanley cup, add grit. but not at the expense of skill.

 

[BlueMapleDawg]

Bergeron/Lucic/Marchand are not Toews/Kane/Hossa though. There's a pretty clear difference in skill between them. Bergeron, Lucic. Marchand, Krejci do not have more skill than Kessel, JVR, Kadri and Lupul. They are just more rounded in other parts of the game. Better defensively, more physical, better on the PK, etc. And yet you're arguing that it's the Leafs that dont have enough skill, while the Bruins do? that doesn't make any sense. In fact that comparison would completely go against your argument because you're saying all that matters is skill, and yet the Leafs top scorers have more skill than the Bruins top players but the Bruins win because their top players are better in other areas. But according to you those other areas dont matter. You don't have a clue what you're even complaining about.

Bergeron is right on par with Toews and Kopitar.

The combo of him, Chara and Thomas/Rask is as good as any combo we've seen in the last ten years with regards to a #1C/#1D/#1G.

Kopitar, Doughty, Quick
Toews, Keith, Crawford/Niemi

The point is they're skilled. Nevermind the "intangibles".

Being good defensively isn't an intangible. It's very tangible. And Bergeron is a top 10 C in the league.

 

[Trainspotter]

There are no Biggs' or scrubs on the elite world teams. So given the option, why would you EVER select that type of player over a small/soft but elite talent?

Biggs played for Team USA in several top international tournaments.

 

[Menzinger]

Boston is a top possession team in the league - that's due to skill. Tough plugs don't have the capacity to control the puck, you need talent for that.