How good was Scott Niedermayer ?

[Ace Card Bedard]

Great career, the Duncan Keith of his day.

Easily a HHoF'er.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'll say...he was inducted six years ago...

 

[vikash1987]

Niedermayer was one of the most graceful skaters, one of the most gifted offensive / puck-moving defensemen, and one of the most accomplished players in hockey history. The fact that he garnered as much attention as he did---given the Devils never enjoyed the luxury of the national media spotlight, and given their conservative defensive system---is a tribute to just how great he was.

A biased note, for sure, but I'm surprised at how many folks here consider him overrated in retrospect. Was he a Bobby Orr or a Paul Coffey? No. Was he in the mold of Brian Leetch? I think so.

 

[Terry Yake]

never seen a guy make the game look as easy as he did

best skating d-man i've ever seen and the way he made everything look so effortless made him so much fun to watch. he could've played a few more seasons too considering he retired at just 36. i'd put him behind only lidstrom and pronger in regards to being the best d-man of his generation

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Heres some food for thought.

1991 Draft day, Nordiques have the first pick, followed by San Jose, then NJ, then the Isles, Jets...

Lindros says he doesnt want to play for the Nords, so lets say instead of being stubborn, they work a deal with the Sharks where they swap picks, presumably with assets coming back the other way (this is the one sticky part, as San Jose probably wouldnt have enough assets on hand to make the deal worthwhile).

Imagine Niedermayer playing for the all-offence-all-day young Nordiques team, feeding Sundin, Sakic, Nolan, and Kamensky breakout passes. Niedermayer could make a hell of a top defence pairing with Foote, Foote being the Dallas Smith to Niedermayers Bobby Orr.

to be honest, i never thought niedermayer was an A+ offensive guy. he obviously was very very good but even just in transition, which was his greatest strength, i think he was below the true creme de la creme below orr/coffey, guys like leetch, mark howe, potvin, macinnis, lidstrom, and in this generation karlsson.

no doubt he would have been useful to the nords, but i don't think he really would have added anything offensively that ozo didn't do, and in some ways do slightly better. nieds probably would have lapped ozo defensively of course, even if he'd come up under page/crawford instead of stevens/fetisov/lemaire/robinson, but i don't think quebec really gains anything. actually, that team is probably much much worse given no forsberg, no ricci, no thibault pick (so probably no roy).

imo that peak niedermayer of the 2004 playoffs to 2007 could really only be possible because of all those years in new jersey. he had basically completely mastered safe but extremely quick and effective breakouts, he knew his own end in a way that he probably wouldn't have if he'd come up in most other organizations, and he really took that A+ skating plus A slightly minus transition, A- overall offence (at no point, for ex, did i ever think he was as good as rafalski at running a PP), and A- defence and put it together to become the best possible version of himself.

 

[GMR]

Leetch definitely the higher peak, no question. But better career too, better player, more dominant player, more impactful player.

Also, it was Brian Leetch who scared me offensively more than any American in international play.

Depends on how you define better career. Leetch was the better individual player and should be ranked higher all time. However, I bet you he'd trade places with Niedermayer's career in a heartbeat. Most players would. Three more Stanley Cups and more international success than Leetch.

 

[JianYang]

Depends on how you define better career. Leetch was the better individual player and should be ranked higher all time. However, I bet you he'd trade places with Niedermayer's career in a heartbeat. Most players would. Three more Stanley Cups and more international success than Leetch.

New Jersey kind of had a cult like feeling to them in those days. I wonder what could have been for neidermayer if he played in a different culture.

I mean, of all the guys they had on the back end, it was probably neidermayer's brand of talent that would have been stifled the most.... Not guys like stevens, daneyko, or odelein.

 

[GMR]

New Jersey kind of had a cult like feeling to them in those days. I wonder what could have been for neidermayer if he played in a different culture.

I mean, of all the guys they had on the back end, it was probably neidermayer's brand of talent that would have been stifled the most.... Not guys like stevens, daneyko, or odelein.

Did New Jersey's style really hold him back, though? They scored plenty of goals some of those seasons. Would he have scored more for Colorado or Detroit? Maybe, but it's hard to say so. He certainly would have scored more if he played in the early 90's, but the same could be said for many players.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

whenever i hear that niedermayer was stifled, and it might be true that he was held back from being an all-offence no defensive responsibility type player like ozolinsh early on, i was always ask, well was rafalski being stifled 2000 to 2003?

 

[Brodeur]

Did New Jersey's style really hold him back, though? They scored plenty of goals some of those seasons. Would he have scored more for Colorado or Detroit? Maybe, but it's hard to say so. He certainly would have scored more if he played in the early 90's, but the same could be said for many players.

It's unfortunate that Niedermayer missed a quarter of the 2000-01 season due to a contract holdout; The Devils quietly led the league in scoring that season. Niedermayer's offensive production was reduced to a degree once Brian Rafalski came in 1999-00 and took over the QB spot on the top PP unit. But that freed up Niedermayer to contribute minutes elsewhere. Maybe he's a tough guy to appreciate if you didn't watch him every day.

I remember Craig Button commenting something along the lines of how the Dallas Stars staff spent considerable time prepping their team on how to approach playing against Niedermayer in the 2000 Finals, but even with a gameplan it was ineffective. Even in the moment, it seemed like Niedermayer was overshadowed by Stevens' defensive reputation and Rafalski's higher point totals. Button's implication was that Niedermayer was the defenseman that they were most concerned about.

Another aspect that is easily glossed over is that the Devils in that era typically ranked near the bottom of the league in PP opportunities.

1992-93: Devils (400 - 23/24), league leader was Chicago with 510
1993-94: Devils (333 - 26/26), league leader was Toronto with 459
1994-95: Devils (164 - 26/26), league leader was Edmonton with 259
1995-96: Devils (368 - 24/26), league leader was Buffalo with 477
1996-97: Devils (288 - 25/26), league leader was Edmonton with 406
1997-98: Devils (333 - 26/26), league leader was Edmonton with 483
1998-99: Devils (304 - 25/27), league leader was Edmonton with 438
1999-00: Devils (274 - 28/28), league leader was San Jose with 377
2000-01: Devils (310 - 30/30), league leader was Calgary with 435
2001-02: Devils (261 - 30/30), league leader was Carolina with 391
2002-03: Devils (303 - 30/30), league leaders were Vancouver/Carolina with 420
2003-04: Devils (312 - 27/30), league leader was Nashville with 426

Probably not an overly controversial statement to say that if you get fewer chances on the PP, you'll end up posting fewer PP points than guys on other clubs.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

whenever i hear that niedermayer was stifled, and it might be true that he was held back from being an all-offence no defensive responsibility type player like ozolinsh early on, i was always ask, well was rafalski being stifled 2000 to 2003?

I guess the argument would be that Niedermayer was better in transition with his skating, while Rafalski was better in the cycle game with his passing, vision, and shot accuracy, and those 2000-2003 Devils scored a large portion of their offense off the cycle, at both even strength and on the powerplay. So Rafalski was something of a better fit for them, at least offensively...

That being said, if 2000-2003 Niedermayer was as good as 2003-2007 Niedermayer, you'd think he'd find a way to at least come close to scoring as much as Rafalski somehow.

And vet Niedermayer being bumped off the 1st PP by over-aged rookie Rafalski isn't exactly a good look for Nieds.
-

 

[JackSlater]

Regarding Niedermayer's offence being stifled by New Jersey, I'm not so sure. Niedermayer was a teammate of Daryl Sydor for three years on Kelowna in junior. Sydor was a year older, but while he turned out to be a very good defenceman he also wasn't an offensive force.

1990
Sydor: GP: 65 G: 29 A: 66 P: 95
Niedermayer: GP: 64 G: 14 A: 55 P: 69

1991
Sydor: GP: 66 G: 27 A: 78 P: 105
Niedermayer: GP: 57 G: 26 A: 56 P: 82

1992
Sydor: GP: 29 G: 9 A: 39 P: 48
Niedermayer: GP: 35 G: 7 A: 32 P: 39

There were also teammates at the 1992 WJC:

Sydor: GP: 7 G: 3 A: 1 P: 4
Niedermayer: GP: 7 G: 0 A:0 P: 0

I would expect a defenceman who was roughly Leetch level in terms of offensive talent to be able to outscore or outpace Sydor as a teammate, but Niedermayer didn't do that even when you compare them at the same age. I think that Niedermayer was just a case of a guy being less than the sum of his parts offensively.

 

[JianYang]

Did New Jersey's style really hold him back, though? They scored plenty of goals some of those seasons. Would he have scored more for Colorado or Detroit? Maybe, but it's hard to say so. He certainly would have scored more if he played in the early 90's, but the same could be said for many players.

They didn't always score alot of goals, and even when they did, his attributes would be best used where he could roam freely, rather than a very rigid structure.

On the opposite end, you had a country club structure in pittsburgh before Konstantine took over. I wonder what that would do for him from a numbers perspective.

 

[Big Phil]

Depends on how you define better career. Leetch was the better individual player and should be ranked higher all time. However, I bet you he'd trade places with Niedermayer's career in a heartbeat. Most players would. Three more Stanley Cups and more international success than Leetch.

Ovechkin probably trades spots with Toews, or maybe he does, because of the Cups and Olympic Golds. Leetch might trade spots with Niedermayer from a team standpoint, but there is no doubt in my mind who the better defenseman was.

 

[Big Phil]

Not to nitpick, but Niedermayer was basically a Luongo shoulder save from being one of the biggest goats of all-time in 2010. 30 seconds before Crosby's goal Niedermayer makes a bizarre pass in his own zone. I have no idea what he was thinking on that play. He has the edge on Pavelski, he could have just blown right by him. Weber is on the other side of the ice, he's in the right spot but Pavelski is right in between them so a pass isn't an option. Until it is. What was he thinking? This is what bothered me about Niedermayer. He's faster than Pavelski, why not just skate it out to the neutral zone? It is like he was almost TOO relaxed out there that he didn't use his tools to the best of his ability. I just never thought he did.

2:15:00 is when the bad pass happens prior to Crosby's goal

 

[GMR]

Ovechkin probably trades spots with Toews, or maybe he does, because of the Cups and Olympic Golds. Leetch might trade spots with Niedermayer from a team standpoint, but there is no doubt in my mind who the better defenseman was.

Nah. No way Ovie trades spots with a guy who never finishes top 10 in scoring. Ovechkin is chasing Gretzky at this point. Certainly Howe. But I get your point.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Regarding Niedermayer's offence being stifled by New Jersey, I'm not so sure. Niedermayer was a teammate of Daryl Sydor for three years on Kelowna in junior. Sydor was a year older, but while he turned out to be a very good defenceman he also wasn't an offensive force.

1990
Sydor: GP: 65 G: 29 A: 66 P: 95
Niedermayer: GP: 64 G: 14 A: 55 P: 69

1991
Sydor: GP: 66 G: 27 A: 78 P: 105
Niedermayer: GP: 57 G: 26 A: 56 P: 82

1992
Sydor: GP: 29 G: 9 A: 39 P: 48
Niedermayer: GP: 35 G: 7 A: 32 P: 39

There were also teammates at the 1992 WJC:

Sydor: GP: 7 G: 3 A: 1 P: 4
Niedermayer: GP: 7 G: 0 A:0 P: 0

I would expect a defenceman who was roughly Leetch level in terms of offensive talent to be able to outscore or outpace Sydor as a teammate, but Niedermayer didn't do that even when you compare them at the same age. I think that Niedermayer was just a case of a guy being less than the sum of his parts offensively.

to go back to my previous post about 2003 to 2007 niedermayer basically being the best possible version of himself, i think, yeah, when you watched him you didn't feel like you were watching a genius. in different ways you could see the genius of a guy like sergei zubov, or lidstrom, or coffey, macinnis, suter, larry murphy, leetch, chelios, and so on. and i think you could see that there was something about the way rafalski saw that game offensively that niedermayer just didn't have.

of course niedermayer had his own gifts. but even the niedermayer who led defencemen in scoring over his three peak regular seasons didn't feel to me like an A+ offensive guy.

the peak niedermayer, to me, had all sorts of knowhow and experience that when it clicked with his god-given skating ability made him an incredible defenceman on both sides of the puck. but i look at someone like quinn hughes or cale makar, niedermayer didn't have the god-given ability to dissect the game and move the puck accordingly the way they do; but eventually he became wise and smart enough to score at an extremely high level. but like brian leetch, those two rookies are naturals when it comes to rushing the puck. niedermayer was a natural as a skater but his decision making, his understanding of when to throw a short or long pass, his timing, that stuff didn't come automatically and gift wrapped out of the box.

left to his own devices, without learning from stevens, fetisov, lemaire, robinson, and co., i don't know that niedermayer wouldn't have plateaued and ended up a bouwmeester level guy.

 

[Nick Hansen]

to go back to my previous post about 2003 to 2007 niedermayer basically being the best possible version of himself, i think, yeah, when you watched him you didn't feel like you were watching a genius. in different ways you could see the genius of a guy like sergei zubov, or lidstrom, or coffey, macinnis, suter, larry murphy, leetch, chelios, and so on. and i think you could see that there was something about the way rafalski saw that game offensively that niedermayer just didn't have.

of course niedermayer had his own gifts. but even the niedermayer who led defencemen in scoring over his three peak regular seasons didn't feel to me like an A+ offensive guy.

the peak niedermayer, to me, had all sorts of knowhow and experience that when it clicked with his god-given skating ability made him an incredible defenceman on both sides of the puck. but i look at someone like quinn hughes or cale makar, niedermayer didn't have the god-given ability to dissect the game and move the puck accordingly the way they do; but eventually he became wise and smart enough to score at an extremely high level. but like brian leetch, those two rookies are naturals when it comes to rushing the puck. niedermayer was a natural as a skater but his decision making, his understanding of when to throw a short or long pass, his timing, that stuff didn't come automatically and gift wrapped out of the box.

left to his own devices, without learning from stevens, fetisov, lemaire, robinson, and co., i don't know that niedermayer wouldn't have plateaued and ended up a bouwmeester level guy.

Cannot give out likes ATM but thoroughly agree with this. The Keith comparison above is apt in many ways but I prefer Duncan Keith. The 2015 playoff was a performance of which Niedermayer never had, Keith's nastiness also gave him another element in his game.

 

[Big Phil]

Nah. No way Ovie trades spots with a guy who never finishes top 10 in scoring. Ovechkin is chasing Gretzky at this point. Certainly Howe. But I get your point.

Yeah, since he has his own Cup he wouldn't trade with Toews. I don't even know if Leetch trades with Niedermayer. At the end of the day Leetch was hardly someone who didn't have a decorated wall himself.

 

[mrhockey193195]

I agree that Niedermayer's first half of his career left a lot to be desired, and his career standing is likely in the 30-40 range behind guys like Leetch, Stevens, Pronger, etc. Outside of 98, he really only became "elite" in my eyes after the 03 playoffs. I also think that the fact his latter half of his career was the elite half causes a bit of recency bias in how favorably we view him (in the same way that Leetch gets underrated, in my opinion, because the latter half of his career was much more pedestrian).

Question though - I don't remember there being much controversy in his selection to the 02 Olympic team, or was there? The locks on D were obviously Pronger, MacInnis, Blake. Foote was a pretty easy one, but after that there was room to maneuver. I know three RHDs are already on that team, but why wasn't Desjardins there? And by 2002, isn't Wade Redden considered as good, if not better than Niedermayer?

 

[Brodeur]

Question though - I don't remember there being much controversy in his selection to the 02 Olympic team, or was there? The locks on D were obviously Pronger, MacInnis, Blake. Foote was a pretty easy one, but after that there was room to maneuver. I know three RHDs are already on that team, but why wasn't Desjardins there? And by 2002, isn't Wade Redden considered as good, if not better than Niedermayer?

Eight Players Named for Canada's Men's Olympic Team Mario Lemieux Named Captain

I remember some surprise on the old HF that Niedermayer was among the first eight players named to the 2002 team in March 2001. I forget if each country had to announce some names that early, but I don't recall many folks thinking Niedermayer was in the same class as the other 7 guys named.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Niedermayer was one of the most graceful skaters, one of the most gifted offensive / puck-moving defensemen, and one of the most accomplished players in hockey history. The fact that he garnered as much attention as he did---given the Devils never enjoyed the luxury of the national media spotlight, and given their conservative defensive system---is a tribute to just how great he was.

A biased note, for sure, but I'm surprised at how many folks here consider him overrated in retrospect. Was he a Bobby Orr or a Paul Coffey? No. Was he in the mold of Brian Leetch? I think so.

I don't. Leetch certainly peaked higher (Niedermayer, as great as he was at his best, never reached a level that Leetch did in 92 or 94). In terms of prime, Leetch's was better and longer. From 90-91 to 96-97 (seven seasons), Leetch had Norris finishes of: 4, 1, n/a, 5, 5, 3, 1. The only year he didn't get a Norris vote was the year he was injured (36 points in 36 games, the Rangers were 20-13-3 with him in the lineup and 14-26-8 without him) Niedermayer's prime stretch was basically 03-04 until 06-07 (three seasons) with Norris finishes of: 1, 2, 2. Longevity is close, we can call it a wash, but I still think Leetch had more "meaningful" seasons in his career.

There's no shame in being ranked behind Leetch, Pronger, Stevens, etc. Niedermayer is still a HOFer and rightfully so. I think he's a weird case where for the first half of his career, he was not an elite player but was somehow always talked about in a way that would make one assume he was a top player in the game. And then in the latter half of his career, he became a top-5 defenseman in the game but the media, fans, etc. incorrectly started to assume that he had always been that good.

 

[GMR]

I agree that Niedermayer's first half of his career left a lot to be desired, and his career standing is likely in the 30-40 range behind guys like Leetch, Stevens, Pronger, etc. Outside of 98, he really only became "elite" in my eyes after the 03 playoffs. I also think that the fact his latter half of his career was the elite half causes a bit of recency bias in how favorably we view him (in the same way that Leetch gets underrated, in my opinion, because the latter half of his career was much more pedestrian).

Question though - I don't remember there being much controversy in his selection to the 02 Olympic team, or was there? The locks on D were obviously Pronger, MacInnis, Blake. Foote was a pretty easy one, but after that there was room to maneuver. I know three RHDs are already on that team, but why wasn't Desjardins there? And by 2002, isn't Wade Redden considered as good, if not better than Niedermayer?

Seemed like a good selection to me. He was the only player on their defense who could actually skate. In general that Canada team was slow and built around veterans and checkers. A player like him should have been welcome in that lineup.

 

[vikash1987]

I don't. Leetch certainly peaked higher (Niedermayer, as great as he was at his best, never reached a level that Leetch did in 92 or 94). In terms of prime, Leetch's was better and longer. From 90-91 to 96-97 (seven seasons), Leetch had Norris finishes of: 4, 1, n/a, 5, 5, 3, 1. The only year he didn't get a Norris vote was the year he was injured (36 points in 36 games, the Rangers were 20-13-3 with him in the lineup and 14-26-8 without him) Niedermayer's prime stretch was basically 03-04 until 06-07 (three seasons) with Norris finishes of: 1, 2, 2. Longevity is close, we can call it a wash, but I still think Leetch had more "meaningful" seasons in his career.

There's no shame in being ranked behind Leetch, Pronger, Stevens, etc. Niedermayer is still a HOFer and rightfully so. I think he's a weird case where for the first half of his career, he was not an elite player but was somehow always talked about in a way that would make one assume he was a top player in the game. And then in the latter half of his career, he became a top-5 defenseman in the game but the media, fans, etc. incorrectly started to assume that he had always been that good.

Sorry, but this is simply not accurate factually.

Leaving aside the comparison with Leetch for a moment---and the wisdom of basing that solely on Norris votes---Niedermayer was widely regarded by peers, coaches, analysts, media, et al. around the league as a legit elite defenseman by the late '90s. There were emerging signs going back to '94 (e.g. league leader in +/-) and obviously '95 (with his performance in the Cup run), but the consistency in his game and overall package came together a couple seasons later, along with the extra freedom post-Lemaire. Heck, in '98 there was Norris talk---it was even part of his contract negotiations---and headlines in the papers such as Devils' Niedermayer joins the NHL elite

He didn't have the flashy offensive numbers over the course of a full season to get the hardware, and he was overshadowed by Stevens and Brodeur. But that didn't fool anybody around the league at the time.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Sorry, but this is simply not accurate factually.

Leaving aside the comparison with Leetch for a moment---and the wisdom of basing that solely on Norris votes---Niedermayer was widely regarded by peers, coaches, analysts, media, et al. around the league as a legit elite defenseman by the late '90s. There were emerging signs going back to '94 (e.g. league leader in +/-) and obviously '95 (with his performance in the Cup run), but the consistency in his game and overall package came together a couple seasons later, along with the extra freedom post-Lemaire. Heck, in '98 there was Norris talk---it was even part of his contract negotiations---and headlines in the papers such as Devils' Niedermayer joins the NHL elite

He didn't have the flashy offensive numbers over the course of a full season to get the hardware, and he was overshadowed by Stevens and Brodeur. But that didn't fool anybody around the league at the time.

Let's put it this way - outside of 1998, was there any point before 2003 that Niedermayer was considered a top-10 defenseman in the league? Top 15 even? He was a good player, of course, but no where close to HOF caliber.

Quoting media headlines that said Niedermayer was elite is exactly the point I was trying to make. There was this perception about how good of a player he was, but it wasn't based in reality. He wasn't at the same level as Bourque, MacInnis, Stevens, Leetch, Pronger, Lidstrom, Chelios, etc. - the actual elite defensemen. He was more on par with Foote, Sydor, Ozolinsh - all great players, but not elite by any stretch.