How good was Scott Niedermayer ?

[Ivan13]

I disagree. He was as much a factor in winning the Cup in NJ and especially ANA where he won the CS.

Keith has been irrelevant for a few years now too and hes only 36, whereas Nieds played great ALL his career. Not even close. Peak you can argue.

Duncan Keith was significantly better than Niedermayer.

As for his Conn Smythe, he was so impressive my first reaction when I heard Niedermayer won it was, "Good for Rob".

And I have no idea how someone can say with a straight face that he is in discussion for best skating D ever. Did you people hear about Orr or Coffey?

 

[Elvs]

I like how in these threads, there's always people who claims Niedermayer played with Pronger.

Niedermayer played with Beauchemin. Pronger played with Sean O'Donnell in Anaheim.

 

[GlitchMarner]

He was damn good and among the best defensemen in the League at his peak, but his peak wasn't that long.

He had longevity as a good to great defenseman, but unlike a guy like Lidstrom or Ray Bourque, he wasn't truly a world class defenseman that long. However, he was very highly regarded and perhaps overrated before he truly broke out. I think he had a similar career to a guy like Vinny Lecavalier. He always had a lot of pure talent and potential and people projected he would be great before he actually became great.

To be honest, I think for a lot of his earlier career he may have been at about the level of last year's Morgan Rielly (but with better defense and worse offense). I didn't follow him too closely toward the end of his career, but I'm guessing he may have been a bit better then than he was in the 90s and early 00s. He was excellent at his absolute best.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Played most of his career in front of Brodeur.

I'd argue that Brodeur played most of his career behind niedermayer, Steven's and rafalski than the other 3ay around.

Neidermayer was a beast.

 

[rumrokh]

Outstanding player overall, but significantly overrated defensively, especially in the context of his entire career rather than the common focus on his late peak. Most fans wouldn't hold him in such high regard if he peaked earlier and had a few just-okay twilight years.

Equivalent+ to any modern player who is often in the Norris talks, but needs a bit of luck to be a finalist or winner. Neidermayer's big advantage over most such players is longevity.

 

[Russian_fanatic]

Could skate backwards faster than most people could skate forwards.

He came into the NHL as an high producing defenseman, but sacrificed his point totals to fit his teams system. For reference Scott Stevens was a perennial 60 point defenseman, but in the same system became a 25 point guy. The Devils became a defensive juggernaut post 94. For reference in 93/94 Stevens posted 78 points in 83 games, while Niedermayer posted 46 in 81. The following season in 94/95 Stevens posted 22 in 48, while Niedermayer posted 19 in 48. Both players PPG went drastically down, because how defensive oriented the Devils became.

Thats just how Lemaire's system was, he asked his defenseman to prioritize defense first, second, and offense came third. There’s no doubt in my mind that Niedermayer could have been a perennial 50 point defenseman in any other system, while being a terror defensively.

When Niedermayer was finally unleashed in Anaheim he was one of the best two was forces in the NHL. Add in his terrific post season play, IMO he was one of the best defensemen of his time, and a 100% portable player who would work in any era. You really had to watch Niedermayer to get a grip just how great he really was. There’s a reason why he won at every level, no matter what team he was on. Niedermayer was a huge reason why his teams where just great, and it’s not like he magically became great when he was 30, Niedermayer was always this good, but it wasn’t until Niedermayer was posting flashy numbers in another system people started to realize how great he was.

 

[tony d]

He had a very good career. One of the top 20-25 dmen ever.

 

[HanSolo]

Maybe a prime Keith minus the dirty cheap shots? Niedermayer is a winner that won everything under the sun. A bit undersized with amazing offensive instincts. But sacrificed it to play in Lemaire's suffocating system. Came alive playing with Pronger. As a player, as good as you can get.

I don't know why this myth persists. They played on the powerplay together sometimes but a majority of the time they were on separate pairings. Carlyle's strategy was to have one of the two elite defensemen on the ice 66+% of the game.

 

[Dread Clawz]

ranking modern Dmen :

Bourque
Lidstrom
Coffey
Cheli
MacInnis
Pronger
Karlsson(?)
Leetch
Stevens
Nieds
Chara
Keith
Doughty
Blake

something like that.

I'd say this is accurate. Mark Howe, Fetisov, and Murphy have to be in there somewhere though.

 

[Mikenusca]

I remember when TSN had him rumoured to sign with the sharks and nearly lost it. Would of put them over the top. I’d say top 25 of all time

 

[HanSolo]

When he was at his peak he played like a top ten all time defenseman. But, unfortunately his peak was pretty short. Comfortably a top 25 all time defenseman though.

 

[HanSolo]

Duncan Keith was significantly better than Niedermayer.

As for his Conn Smythe, he was so impressive my first reaction when I heard Niedermayer won it was, "Good for Rob".

And I have no idea how someone can say with a straight face that he is in discussion for best skating D ever. Did you people hear about Orr or Coffey?

Lol you just tied your credibility up in a bow and kissed it goodbye.

 

[Dread Clawz]

Could skate backwards faster than most people could skate forwards.

He came into the NHL as an high producing defenseman, but sacrificed his point totals to fit his teams system. For reference Scott Stevens was a perennial 60 point defenseman, but in the same system became a 25 point guy. The Devils became a defensive juggernaut post 94. For reference in 93/94 Stevens posted 78 points in 83 games, while Niedermayer posted 46 in 81. The following season in 94/95 Stevens posted 22 in 48, while Niedermayer posted 19 in 48. Both players PPG went drastically down, because how defensive oriented the Devils became.

Thats just how Lemaire's system was, he asked his defenseman to prioritize defense first, second, and offense came third. There’s no doubt in my mind that Niedermayer could have been a perennial 50 point defenseman in any other system, while being a terror defensively.

When Niedermayer was finally unleashed in Anaheim he was one of the best two was forces in NHL history. Add in his terrific post season play, you have the makings of a top 10 defender in NHL history. You really had to watch Niedermayer to get a grip just how great he really was. There’s a reason why he won at every level, no matter what team he was on. Niedermayer was a huge reason why his teams where just great, and it’s not like he magically became great when he was 30, Niedermayer was always this good, but it wasn’t until Niedermayer was posting flashy numbers in another system people started to realize how great he was.

The brilliance of Niedermayer was in the small details. With his skating advantage over almost any other player and his iq, it was almost unfair watching him defend. He could skate as well in any direction as he could forward, and made it look effortless. It never looked like he was even trying out there. Yet, once in a while he would absolutely jolt someone with a huge hit. He absolutely would have been one of the most prolific offensive defensemen ever if he wasn't stifled in Lemaires system. But, I think Lemaire helped him become a better defender.

 

[Ivan13]

When he was at his peak he played like a top ten all time defenseman. But, unfortunately his peak was pretty short. Comfortably a top 25 all time defenseman though.

Top 10 D of all time at his best? What?

Orr, Harvey, Lidas, Shore, Borque, Potvin, Robinson, Chelios, Leetch, Coffey etc have all been far better at their best. And the list goes on.

 

[HanSolo]

Top 10 D of all time at his best? What?

Orr, Harvey, Lidas, Shore, Borque, Potvin, Robinson, Chelios, Leetch, Coffey etc have all been far better at their best. And the list goes on.

I said played to that quality. For like two years. Try reading more carefully.

 

[Ivan13]

Lol you just tied your credibility up in a bow and kissed it goodbye.

Sure. On the history of hockey board it is often mentioned as one of the least impressive and deserving CS of all time. Checking line was more important. Beauchemin played an integral part and actually carried that pairing defensively. Prongs was better, etc.

 

[Ivan13]

I said played to that quality. For like two years. Try reading more carefully.

I read it carefully and I know what you wrote. He hasn't approached any of them for any period of time.

 

[crazy8888]

Someone already said it but Duncan Keith is most closest comparable player

 

[HanSolo]

Sure. On the history of hockey board it is often mentioned as one of the least impressive and deserving CS of all time. Checking line was more important. Beauchemin played an integral part and actually carried that pairing defensively. Prongs was better, etc.

Okay but the checking line worked as a line. If any one player on the checking line deserved the Conn Smythe it was Pahlsson. I'll grant you that Niedermayer wasn't the greatest choice because really no one player deserved it all that much and better arguments can be made for Getzlaf, McDonald, and Giguere. But to suggest Rob had a better individual impact those playoffs than Scott is either lunacy or clear evidence of negativity/confirmation bias.

Edit: and Beauchemin carrying that pairing is patent revisionist history. Beauchemin didn't surpass Nieds defensively until 09.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

He was damn good and among the best defensemen in the League at his peak, but his peak wasn't that long.

He had longevity as a good to great defenseman, but unlike a guy like Lidstrom or Ray Bourque, he wasn't truly a world class defenseman that long. However, he was very highly regarded and perhaps overrated before he truly broke out. I think he had a similar career to a guy like Vinny Lecavalier. He always had a lot of pure talent and potential and people projected he would be great before he actually became great.

To be honest, I think for a lot of his earlier career he may have been at about the level of last year's Morgan Rielly (but with better defense and worse offense). I didn't follow him too closely toward the end of his career, but I'm guessing he may have been a bit better then than he was in the 90s and early 00s. He was excellent at his absolute best.

Unfortunately for Nieds, he played in that infamous new jersey trap. I sort of feel despite the cups, his talent and career were wasted in that system.

 

[HanSolo]

I read it carefully and I know what you wrote. He hasn't approached any of them for any period of time.

Which is different from what I said, how? I was talking about his peak. That window of 05-07

 

[JianYang]

Smoothest skater I'd seen.

Was a more conscientious Paul Coffey, who picked his spots better, but less offensive flair.

Doughty was the closest, but he plays nothing like Doughty.

He did have those Coffey vibes in terms of his skating.

He spent his prime years in a very structured New Jersey system. Maybe he did have more flare, but the environment wasn't right to unleash it.

 

[LarKing]

I like the Keith comparison. Amazing skaters, can dominate games, but neither did it for a particularly long time.

 

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

Hell no.

The legend of Scott Niedermayer gets bigger every year. He is not as good as he is made up to be.

Which part of what I said do you disagree with specifically?

 

[eviohh26]

LOL. he was a legit as f*** #1 but... best in the game??? Hell to the Nah .