How good was Scott Niedermayer ?

[Filthy Dangles]

RE: Overrated and short peak

Scott Niedermayer Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

According to Hockey-Reference, in his first 12 seasons, from age 18 to 29, he had one season where he was Top-10 in Norris Voting. And in 9 of those 12 seasons, he didn’t even get any Norris votes at all.

But the next 5 years he finished 1, 2, 2, 10, 9 in voting.

It’s kinda weird, I am too young to have seen his earlier years but his Norris voting track record is a bit of anamoly and based on it, he actually became a lot better in his mid 30s than his mid 20s

 

[mr figgles]

He was good, but he wasn’t even the best on his team most of his career. He played with 2 better dmen.

 

[aufheben]

I don't know why this myth persists. They played on the powerplay together sometimes but a majority of the time they were on separate pairings. Carlyle's strategy was to have one of the two elite defensemen on the ice 66+% of the game.

Why do people think he played with Pronger? If you have two #1 defensemen, would you play them on the same pairing?

 

[CokenoPepsi]

One of the most overrated players of all time... But he still was good

 

[Harvey Birdman]

Even as a Pens fan I’ve always been a big admirer of Niedermayer. Is he a top 10 Dman of all time. No. He is not. But when he was part of the Devils I was cringing anytime the puck was on his stick because if he got a lane to skate with the puck I knew it was down to the goalie to beat him a majority of the time. One of those rival team players you hated but could appreciate their game greatly.

 

[BurntToast]

I honestly think most legends of any sport are overrated. This seems to be the year everyone try’s to apply today’s standards to the past and vise versa. They Norris trophy is a joke, as are most NHL awards. Just because a defenseman can score doesn’t make him the best defenseman. Furthermore, most people devalue the 90s, 00s, Devils players due to their much hated style of play. Brodeur is a product of the defense but the defenseman aren’t that great. Oh and Stevens is a piece of crap. One thing is for certain, the is a lot of animosity towards the Devils teams in that era.

Niedermayer was one of many great defenseman to play. What makes him special is that he won at every level of competition. I believe, only one other player has acoplished that task. He has more cups than most franchises. Devils didn’t win anything after he left, but he kept winning. He was often compared to Coffey. They had an ability to transition from defense to offense with speed and hockey IQ. He would often skate up the ice creating odd man rushes, and he was a skilled passer. Additionally, he said in interviews he felt the Devils system Restricted creativity. That’s why it seems his “peak” was in Anaheim. Maybe peak points.

 

[Raistlin]

I don't know why this myth persists. They played on the powerplay together sometimes but a majority of the time they were on separate pairings. Carlyle's strategy was to have one of the two elite defensemen on the ice 66+% of the game.

When people say "play with" that means they belong in to the same team, I know full well that they play on different pairings. But when clinging to a one goal lead in the playoffs you don't think the coach will throw both Pronger and Nieds on the ice together? The best part about Niedermayer is always that whatever team he plays on just flat out wins. He's a legend on the Canadian international/Olympic teams. As another poster said, his details, elite skating and hockey sense are critical to his teams success. Burke always mention him ahead of Pronger, and credited Pahlsson, Giguere and Niedermayer as most important pieces to that cup run.

 

[Dread Clawz]

RE: Overrated and short peak

Scott Niedermayer Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

According to Hockey-Reference, in his first 12 seasons, from age 18 to 29, he had one season where he was Top-10 in Norris Voting. And in 9 of those 12 seasons, he didn’t even get any Norris votes at all.

But the next 5 years he finished 1, 2, 2, 10, 9 in voting.

It’s kinda weird, I am too young to have seen his earlier years but his Norris voting track record is a bit of anamoly and based on it, he actually became a lot better in his mid 30s than his mid 20s

He didn't become better in his mid 30s, his creativity was just stifled playing for the Devils most of his career. Lemaire and then Robinson played a trap system, in which the blueliners were asked to sacrifice their offensive production. Even after all of new jerseys defensive coaches left, it was hard for the players to shake the defensive structure from their game.

Same reason Scott Stevens was one of the top offensive D in the league before Lemaire. Then post-Lemaire hiring, he became a 20 pt. defenseman that focused much more on defense.

 

[trentmccleary]

He started very slowly and broke through to become an all star and eventual Norris winner after 11 seasons in the league. His first 10 years were probably pretty similar to Jay Bouwmeester's.

 

[Pucker Factor 10]

Duncan Keith was significantly better than Niedermayer.

Really? Based on what? PPG: Neidermayer .59 Keith .53. ADVANTAGE-Neidermayer
CUPS: Neidermayer 4 Keith 3 ADVANTAGE-Neidermayer

In fact, his PPG is higher than his HOFer NJ D-mate Stevens, who's was .55. Based on the logic I'm seeing here, he should be a slam dunk HOFer, which I think he is. Although he never was on a team I liked, with his skating ability and offensive skills he was a dominant player and one that always caught your eye.

 

[Nsjohnson]

One of the best skating d of all time.

 

[Big Phil]

To add...........there was a big concern with him, well, not so much a concern as much as we were just waiting for him to bust out. You couldn't blame Jacques Lemaire anymore, he left after 1998, so it was more just it seemed like he was bashful and didn't want to risk skating end to end, or wasn't allowed. He had a career that is very similar to Wade Redden's for their first 10 years. They were 4 years apart, but if you judged Redden and Niedermayer, before, say, his 2004 Norris year it would be similar. You just figured Niedermayer had more upside if he could just get over the hump. But their careers were similar. You figured Redden eventually would put it all together and have a breakout year but it never happened.

I guess this is what sits with me with Niedermayer. He has a weird career curve, even for a defenseman. He was decent prior to the Norris, but in all honesty I wouldn't disagree if someone said Brian Rafalski was more impactful on those Devils teams starting in 2000. You had Stevens, Daneyko, Rafalski and Niedermayer on that defense and it was a darn good defense. But I don't even know if Niedermayer was the 2nd best on that one, and we are talking about a good, but not HHOFer in Rafalski too.

So I guess so much of me remembers him as that guy. He wins the Norris in 2004, is a 1st teamer in 2006 and 2007 and then never really has an elite year after that. Good enough for the HHOF? Yeah, because he won in the postseason and he did that have 2nd team all-star in 1998 and played for Canada a ton. He's good enough that he belongs, but I don't think he belongs more than Rob Blake.

You look at all of the defensemen in the HHOF. How many of them didn't hit their stride until they were around 30? Maybe if Brent Burns get in, that'll be him. But who else? Even the current guys who are locks for the HHOF. Weber, Doughty, Karlsson, etc. all were good in their early 20s. Doughty was a 2nd team all-star his 2nd year. Niedermayer it just seemed floated around the first 10 years of his life and then decided "Hey, I can skate really, really fast, I ought to use that to my advantage."

Oh well, he was good though, albeit a shorter time than it should have been.

 

[GMR]

He was a very good player. Unfortunately, the success of the teams he played on greatly inflated his overall reputation by the hockey media. Especially in the second half of his career. Was he any better than Brian Leetch? The latter put up better numbers, played similarly in his own end, but didn't have great team success, other than in 1994. Of course, the hockey media would rank Niedermayer higher.

The closest comparison for Niedermayer is Toews. Obviously different positions, but they're both very good players who have become overrated by the people covering the game.

 

[Big Phil]

He was a very good player. Unfortunately, the success of the teams he played on greatly inflated his overall reputation by the hockey media. Especially in the second half of his career. Was he any better than Brian Leetch? The latter put up better numbers, played similarly in his own end, but didn't have great team success, other than in 1994. Of course, the hockey media would rank Niedermayer higher.

The closest comparison for Niedermayer is Toews. Obviously different positions, but they're both very good players who have become overrated by the people covering the game.

There was a thread about this a while back, a Niedermayer vs. Leetch thread. The answer for me is a definite no. Leetch was better. He peaked higher, he had far more "great/good" years and while he didn't do a whole lot in his 30s as opposed to his 20s (the complete opposite of Niedermayer) there is no way the Rangers win the Cup in 1994 if a prime Niedermayer is on there instead of the eventual Conn Smythe winning Leetch.

There are 2-3 seasons at least that you could say Leetch had that were better than anything Niedermayer had.

 

[GMR]

There was a thread about this a while back, a Niedermayer vs. Leetch thread. The answer for me is a definite no. Leetch was better. He peaked higher, he had far more "great/good" years and while he didn't do a whole lot in his 30s as opposed to his 20s (the complete opposite of Niedermayer) there is no way the Rangers win the Cup in 1994 if a prime Niedermayer is on there instead of the eventual Conn Smythe winning Leetch.

There are 2-3 seasons at least that you could say Leetch had that were better than anything Niedermayer had.

I remember that thread. I believe I said something similar then. Leetch had a higher peak but Niedermayer had the better career. However, when I say better career, that relates to team success. The individual stats clearly favor Leetch. He was a much better point per game scorer. Maybe that wouldn't matter if Niedermayer was some kind of stud in his own zone, but he was not. The problem for Leetch was that the Rangers did absolutely nothing after 1994. One good playoff run in 1997 but overall they were incredibly disappointing. His health was a big issue his last few seasons also.

 

[njdevils1982]

Average

a troll comment

 

[Agent Zub]

Great d but he was fortunate he never really had to carry a team.

 

[Big Phil]

I remember that thread. I believe I said something similar then. Leetch had a higher peak but Niedermayer had the better career. However, when I say better career, that relates to team success. The individual stats clearly favor Leetch. He was a much better point per game scorer. Maybe that wouldn't matter if Niedermayer was some kind of stud in his own zone, but he was not. The problem for Leetch was that the Rangers did absolutely nothing after 1994. One good playoff run in 1997 but overall they were incredibly disappointing. His health was a big issue his last few seasons also.

Leetch definitely the higher peak, no question. But better career too, better player, more dominant player, more impactful player.

Also, it was Brian Leetch who scared me offensively more than any American in international play.

 

[The Wizard of Oz]

RE: Overrated and short peak

Scott Niedermayer Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

According to Hockey-Reference, in his first 12 seasons, from age 18 to 29, he had one season where he was Top-10 in Norris Voting. And in 9 of those 12 seasons, he didn’t even get any Norris votes at all.

But the next 5 years he finished 1, 2, 2, 10, 9 in voting.

It’s kinda weird, I am too young to have seen his earlier years but his Norris voting track record is a bit of anamoly and based on it, he actually became a lot better in his mid 30s than his mid 20s

As a young hockey fan during the 90s and early 00s Niedermayer’s reputation was higher than his Norris votes suggested. I guess by the time voting came between Stevens and Brodeur Scott was the odd man out.

 

[93LEAFS]

He was a very good player. Unfortunately, the success of the teams he played on greatly inflated his overall reputation by the hockey media. Especially in the second half of his career. Was he any better than Brian Leetch? The latter put up better numbers, played similarly in his own end, but didn't have great team success, other than in 1994. Of course, the hockey media would rank Niedermayer higher.

The closest comparison for Niedermayer is Toews. Obviously different positions, but they're both very good players who have become overrated by the people covering the game.

I don't know about greatly inflated his reputation. I mean, he was always between the 1st-3rd best player on the Devils. The Devil's were also a bit a gift and a curse. Mid-90's to 2004 guys who were elite transition guys with Niedermayer's skill set value was probably decreased by the heavy emphasis of the trap. Having Niedermayer trying to break the trap by breaking the rush out would generally be suicide. Guys like he and Zubov probably played in the absolute worst era for their skill sets. With 2 line off-side passes and the heavy emphasis on the trap, they could fully exploit their long-passing or their ability to take it up ice.

 

[solidmotion]

I don't know about greatly inflated his reputation. I mean, he was always between the 1st-3rd best player on the Devils. The Devil's were also a bit a gift and a curse. Mid-90's to 2004 guys who were elite transition guys with Niedermayer's skill set value was probably decreased by the heavy emphasis of the trap. Having Niedermayer trying to break the trap by breaking the rush out would generally be suicide. Guys like he and Zubov probably played in the absolute worst era for their skill sets. With 2 line off-side passes and the heavy emphasis on the trap, they could fully exploit their long-passing or their ability to take it up ice.

don't think that's true. 3rd-5th maybe. brodeur and stevens clearly 1-2 year-in year-out. after that sometimes niedermayer but rafalski and elias were also up there.

 

[MXD]

Incredibly overrated because he LOOKED great (like, best-looking D since I don't know when, and I'm obviously not talking about looks) and was, for a short span, easily amongst the Top-3 D-Men in the league, along with Lidstrom and Pronger. Also, he aged great, and had his best seasons between the age of 30 and 33, and retired not much later (at 36). Also helping him is the fact that his pre-peak seasons were with a powerhouse of sorts.

Unfortunately, his peak is transposed into his non-peak, and he's made out to be something he never was (a Top-3 D in the league for his whole career).

His career arc looks a lot like Brent Burns, minus the "powerhouse" part. He's better than Burns... But Burns could possibly pass him (as far as Im concerned).

Still a HHOF'er.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The 1999-2001 Devils who went to back to back finals were the best offensive team in the league. And Niedermayer was handily outscored on those teams by Rafalski, especially in the playoffs.

So while the Devils may have held his offensive totals back somewhat, it's not like they held everyone back, at least not all the time.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Heres some food for thought.

1991 Draft day, Nordiques have the first pick, followed by San Jose, then NJ, then the Isles, Jets...

Lindros says he doesnt want to play for the Nords, so lets say instead of being stubborn, they work a deal with the Sharks where they swap picks, presumably with assets coming back the other way (this is the one sticky part, as San Jose probably wouldnt have enough assets on hand to make the deal worthwhile).

Imagine Niedermayer playing for the all-offence-all-day young Nordiques team, feeding Sundin, Sakic, Nolan, and Kamensky breakout passes. Niedermayer could make a hell of a top defence pairing with Foote, Foote being the Dallas Smith to Niedermayers Bobby Orr.

 

[MXD]

Heres some food for thought.

1991 Draft day, Nordiques have the first pick, followed by San Jose, then NJ, then the Isles, Jets...

Lindros says he doesnt want to play for the Nords, so lets say instead of being stubborn, they work a deal with the Sharks where they swap picks, presumably with assets coming back the other way (this is the one sticky part, as San Jose probably wouldnt have enough assets on hand to make the deal worthwhile).

Imagine Niedermayer playing for the all-offence-all-day young Nordiques team, feeding Sundin, Sakic, Nolan, and Kamensky breakout passes. Niedermayer could make a hell of a top defence pairing with Foote, Foote being the Dallas Smith to Niedermayers Bobby Orr.

Even better : Imagine the Nordiques drafting Fat Balloon instead.